A god created in the image of his creators.
the "official" explanation is that on the Eden, as "the tree of life" was available, work/death/predation was not needed to sustain life.
But with the original sin + the humans eating from the tree of knowledge, the tree of life was not available anymore, so death start to be the normal thing, work/death started to be needed.
Looking this way the theologists try to isolate YHWH from this cruel part of creation BUT as YHWH is the final creator/enabler/controller of everything, sin is his creation as for its cult, YHWH is the only creative power.
@HumanistJohn the problem is that nothing in creation is independent from YHWH, he knows past and future and so if something happened is because he allowed, thus he wanted it to happen as he writes the source code and can see the results in "real time".
Thus is irrelevant if god did it by itself or allowed/programmed the devil or any other part of the creation to do something.
Plus wen talking about eden, the tree of life and so on we are on a mystic era where physical laws are not well defined yet. It was a perfect world, so it was not real.
Of course this is what is written, I am discussing the text, not saying that I believe in it.
What an irrational question. That man would create a philosophy that would take nature, and contribute the creation of it to a god or gods......only man could devise such a devious, self-perpetuating, evil system of governance.....and only man could be so reliant to step into, and adhere to such a devestating philosophy
This is a question I asked myself when I was a believer.
Also, I wondered how this god, that is supposed to be the epitome of compassion and love, could create a world that it know would have so much pain and suffering, just so a tiny few would believe in it and the correct things about it; and would worship it-- in the correct way--or else! Talk about an EGO.
If I had the power, I would end suffering; and I wouldn't expect anything in return. I would even sacrifice my life, knowing I would not return in less than 3 full days, if it would end ignorance, greed, malice and suffering. So, this right here proves that I am more moral than this god...and its son-self.
Good point but the believers still call it "the food chain."
Totally ignoring that this all-powerful god could have created a humane circle of life. Of course, they want to blame humans and sin, ignoring the fact that this god created humans to be "sinful" in the first place.
And, as soon as Chik fillet figures put a religious angle, people will be eating Soylent Green.
David Attenborough was talking about a worm that crawls into the eye of a child and blinds that eye. That really hit home as to why a god does not exist.
I completely agree. I have always loved animals, especially mammals, and idealized nature as a young person. It was very eye opening to realize at some time just how violent and unforgiving nature can be. It can be downright revolting and dusgusting unless we are willing to accept that even in the process of death and decay exists a kind of wonder at how it all works together.
I thought it it was the chimps ripping an arm off another chimp that opened his eyes, but yes, he realised.
I think we may have covered this, a very messed up one.
But then apparently god did make man in his image. Maybe man (some men) evolved and god didn’t. Yes, I guess that would be offensive, but this is aimed as a comment to non believers. Old Testament god of hate- moved into loving Jesus god- moved into the holy spirit (which no one seems interested into looking for, or into), they just want to fast forward to armageddon The whole idea of heaven may have just led some to a death wish!
I wonder why those who believe in heaven are not making all haste to get there or maybe they prefer to make life a hell here for all those around them. Still, I do not see them jumping off cliffs or committing mass suicide. Silly me, heaven is always in some future that never arrives. The proverbial donkey chassing a carrot tied to a stick that is fixed to it's halter springs to mind.
@ASTRALMAX some believe that suicide stops you getting in don’t they? But yes; not all
@girlwithsmiles I ve been to two suicide-related funerals in my life. I heard one of the attendees saying, "we got to pray really hard for his soul because he wasn't god-ready yet".
@ASTRALMAX I also can't see how Rightwingers will want to go to heaven anytime soon. Their "holy book" says "it's a place where ALL god's people live in harmony". That means heaven will be "a grey area" with no Separate Development Act. I was around 15 years old when I asked a white Afrikaans-speaking NGK church minister this question in South Africa? That same minister gave his all-white congregation "food for thought" ie "you cannot mix with blacks", "they're non-believers," "they're the son's of Isaac" , "they have no crown on their head" and therefore "kaffirs". Those churches were instrumental in the segregation of people. They have hatred for fellow mankind. ...and yet today, eg look at USA (and South Africa too), African American xtian congregations are huge in fellowship, audiences and quoirs. ...those huge gospel groups!!! They need to collect their thoughts about this craziness. It was a religion forced on them by their cruel slave owners, so they can love their cruel brother, overlook the flogging! and be damned to a continued life of brutal slavery with no heaven in sight!
@TimeOutForMe yes, there seems to be a Christian strong hold in the African American population here too (UK).
But I don’t believe in God and think there of people in all walks if life that do great things regardless of politics, religion or class
@girlwithsmiles I too don't believe in any god. You don't need a dependency on make-belief gods to show your kindness and your humanity to fellow humans.
It is a mistake to associate the idea of God with any particular qualities. Some gods, such as the Abrahamic god may well be associated in our culture with certain qualities, such as jealousy, but the issue of gods, is a philosophic one, is outside of any individual culture. There is nothing basically illogical in imagining a sadistic god, who created the world in order to indulge its pleasure in observing pain.
More likely perhaps, or maybe more reasonably, it is not hard to imagine a deist god, who created the mechanical laws of the universe, then stepped away. And who is simply indifferent to all feelings, such as pleasure and pain, which are to it, just minor evolved parts, of some tiny evolved units within the universe.
This is why the, argument from evil, is generally regarded as a weak one in sceptic circles, if you are trying to prove atheism. Though it can be a very strong one when used to address certain specific gods, such as the Abrahamic god, who make claims, such as omnipotence.
I agree. The argument of evil does not prove that no gods exist. It can only be an argument against the god of the bible being an all loving god. And the fact that it is so contradictory, and has such human attributes, one can reasonably argue that it cannot exist.
I cannot know whether a deistic god exists. It simply cannot be known. But, we can say that there is no reason to insert a god, of any kind, in order to explain the workings of the universe. So, why insert one? I refer to Occam's Razor. And, the simplest explanation is that mindless energy has always existed. Once we add a consciousness, will/volition, human attributes, it adds unnecessary complexity.
It’s just nature. The predators are not evil, tigers, lions, sharks, crocodiles, etc etc is part of their survival. They don’t have a conscience either. In many cases it’s either kill or be killed.
We have no business being there. The shark is the king of the sea, the lions the king of the jungle, the crocodile is the king of the swamp. You enter these at your own peril.
The animals themselves are not "evil." They are simply doing what they must to survive--according to evolution. But a god that would create such a system, with so much pain and suffering, would, in my opinion, be evil.
...and it is what it is. At least the big cat family will make sure you're dead before feasting. ...not like the hyenas and wild dogs, they're eat you while you're alive.
That's the position of fundamentalists. But most xians don't even think about such topics; they're too busy with their smiley-face god.
But I'd like to ask a fundamentalist just how the 'fall' changed behavior and even stomach chemistry, the shape of teeth, patterns in the brain, and so on. Either god or the devil did it. Both positions lead to theological problems.