On the way home from work I stopped at the Target in the Jewish part of my county because it is conveniently right off the beltway and has a better selection (and cleaner bathroom) than the one across the street from where I live. Because it is in a Jewish section, there are tons of Orthodox women in what I call The Uniform: long black skirt, tights flats, long sleeved shirt, hair covering, or a sheitel. They drive mini vans, usually have an infant, a toddler, and maybe 3-4 other kids trotting alongside of the cart.
Today there were mostly women with infants since the older kids may be at summer camp. As I left, there were 2 camp counselors and about 8 little girls on long skirts, long sleeved tops, and knee highs…because glimpsing the legs of 7 year olds might give someone a boner.
I have a friend where I teach who is Orthodox. Her son is joining the Israeli army, she keeps kosher and the Sabbath, but she didn’t spit out kids until her uterus imploded, and she wears scrubs to work (she’s the school nurse) and she does not cover her hair. (She also makes an amazing brisket). Orthodoxy is a spectrum and on one end I guess are people like her, and on the other are the ones who drive the extra long cargo van to haul around the 8 kids they’ve had while also working full time while their husbands “studies the word of gawd” at Yeshiva. (This is totally A Thing- the women work as speech therapists and occupational therapists with the goyim in the public school system between constant pregnancies while their husbands look a shiksha porn study the word of gawd all day for a living.
My definition is this: if you are part of something that tells you where to live (you have to be able to walk to services on the Sabbath because you are not allowed to drive), what to eat, what to wear, who to talk to (they usually do not talk to godless heathens like me), how to spend your time and money, and what to think, you are in a cult. I consider Orthodox Jews to be part of a cult. I wonder where the line is though. Is my friend not like that because we are friends? (I am pretty sure I was the only atheist at her kid’s bar mitzvah). Are people truly happy living this way?
I know I wasn’t happy as a Catholic. I lived in constant fear of upsetting the Magical Invisible Sky Daddy by having impure thoughts, masturbating, considering having premarital sex, or making out with Chuck at that high school dance my freshman year. I found no comfort in church, prayer, or being around other Catholics. Am I the odd one out? Are these women truly fulfilled by wearing a plethora of sensible shoes and black skirts for the rest of their lives as their womb pretty much acts like a clown car? Am I missing something?
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23 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.ALL religions are cults.
Every last fucking one of them.
KKGator
Level 9
Aug 4, 2021
10
From one perspective, yes. Cult shares etymological history with cultivation and culture.
@MsKathleen
My point exactly.
It can be a difficult life to leave behind for the women because they are largely uneducated.
The men have t made and have little reason to want to leave.
Good movie based on a real woman's experience.
BufftonBeotch
Level 8
Aug 4, 2021
7
@Sorcha This is a movie from last year.
The series is more recent and a different person.
@BufftonBeotch they accept conversions! 
@Bigwavedave And I'm sure it happens. But like a woman converting to Islam for a marriage it is something I can't imagine.
No matter how attractive Persian men are, lol.
@Sorcha Actually the series (is it on Netflix?) could be the same woman. I haven't checked.
I'd hate to think she is going through this nightmare with one of her sons now. I have only seen the preview.
@BufftonBeotch ohh you like the dark and swarthy tipe eh? Lol
I liken them to the Amish, who's women are not allowed to even have buttons, their layers of clothing held together by straight pins, heads covered hair all braided inside their bonnets which sit over top of the white covering when they are outside. Men are at least allowed buttons, but must wear long sleeves, grow a beard once married and baptized, always have a hat (straw or felt) and no zippers of course or belts. I hauled them on the bus and occasionally got into conversations with them. Never forget the time, after Waco, the one said to me "What do you think of those cults?" I had to bite my tongued to keep from saying "What do you think the Amish are?" I guess when you are indoctrinated as they are, (only go to their own schools, not past eighth grade, Amish teachers who have no more than that same education and become teachers by apprenticeship) and your only friends are Amish, it's very hard to leave, though many do. They have a period called Rumpspringh, usually around the time they are 16 to early 20's, where they are given some rope to explore the world outside. Many get drivers licenses and through wild shindigs with booze and drugs. The girls drop the bonnets for a period of time, the boys lose the hats, but they are easily recognized by the hair styles and mannerisms. Parents turn a blind eye. I remarked to an older Amish guy one time that the youngsters had switched from high performance muscle cars to tricked out pickups, evidenced at weddings in the fall, where they have to park away from the farm house where the wedding is held. He said he didn't know anything about the kids having cars! LOL They were all over the place that time of year. But it does allow some, who like you don't feel the draw of their folks religion, to leave and not be shunned. I had several friends who were ex Amish and still close to their families. It's only once they are baptized, usually before getting married or in their early 20's that, should they decide to leave or not follow the lifestyle, as dictated by their bishops, they would be shunned and not allowed to participate in family activities, even meals or do business with other Amish. If they repent and decide they would like back in the community, they would be allowed, but it would not be an easy decision, going back to living in the mid 19th century lifestyle.
Barnie2years
Level 8
Aug 5, 2021
3
The Amish ceased evolving technologically about 1835, after the Industrial Revolution set in. But I think alot of folks alive back then would have done the same, if they could have foreseen the America of the future!
Hilarious! Brilliantly written with great humor. Thank you.
Celebrate who you are. You are not missing anything.
LiterateHiker
Level 9
Aug 4, 2021
3
The religious right is a blight on society
bobwjr
Level 10
Aug 4, 2021
3
@bobwjr. I don't consider Amish to be the religous right at all.
@Bigwavedave they voted en mass for Trump, but they are not Evangelical in any way. They have no interest in converting anyone to their religion, mostly I think out of fear of outsiders fostering change.
@Bigwavedave Was talking about Orthodox Jews, Muslims, evangelism
@bobwjr oh I thought you meant amish...I cannot imagine them voting for trump.
Simply put, ALL religions could be defined as cults. I cannot speak to YOUR experience, but in general, my observation of “devout” practices of anything are brainwashed. If one is raised with specific social and familial scripting, one believes that behavior is “normal”.
KateOahu
Level 8
Aug 4, 2021
3
As is atheism.
Yes, they will serve in the Israeli army but not in the American army. Which other ethnic group in the US does that?
This fanatic religious nationalist attitude explains why we support Israeli apartheid and occupation.
Krish55
Level 8
Aug 4, 2021
2
"usually have an infant, a toddler, and maybe 3-4 other kids trotting alongside of the cart" .
I see the exact same thing every Saturday in the area I live in and around 
...and the many things you say that reeks CULT.
I second that
TimeOutForMe
Level 8
Aug 4, 2021
2
Sceptical as to whether these women are fulfilled. I would believe, psychologically and socially trapped.
Their existence everyday under the thumbs of religious fear and manipulation by members (both men and other women), leads my emotions to both pity and anger.
They’re treated as chattel and I find it inhuman.
Cultural traditions are a very weak excuse, when equality is at stake.
Mvtt
Level 7
Aug 4, 2021
2
I wouldn't be fulfilled and most of my friends would not but I do believe there are some women and some men that would feel fulfilled with this kind of lifestyle.
They are so cloistered and uneducated they may have no knowledge of what they are missing.
I think the men go out into the world more, but they have more freedom in general.
Once radicalized and brainwashed, it’s virtually impossible to break out.
Only the strongwilled can do it.
CuddyCruiser
Level 8
Aug 4, 2021
1
Extreme orthodoxy becomes a cult regardless of the base religion. Judaism is no exception.
obviouspseudonym
Level 5
Aug 11, 2021
0
In London too they have created their own shtetls. I met one guy who tried to break out (of his entire family only his mother would still talk to him) - eventually he caved in to the moral blackmail and re-conformed - to the extent that he would not even acknowledge the friends he had made on the 'outside'. Without coercion these communities would die.
I hear Muslim women saying over and over that wearing the headscarf gives them self-respect and even empowers them, But I look at it this way - usually only those who are indoctrinated from a very young age actually observe the dress code (I see little girls of five and six already being put in headscarfs as if they were already mini-maidens who needed protection from the lusts of men - a sexualisation of children that appalls me). Any grown woman is free to put on a head-covering any time she likes (nuns used to do it), but outside of religious communities very, very few feel the inclination. I think those in such communities who consider it their free choice to adopt religious garb are deluding themselves.
Gareth
Level 7
Aug 6, 2021
0
"Without coercion these communities would die."
That. is why they do it.
@sorcha. I am from Baltimore originally. I grew up in East Baltimore off of Belair road . Are you talking about the Reichelrstown road area? Like northwest Baltimore? I am surprised that's still a thing.
Bigwavedave
Level 8
Aug 5, 2021
0
It is horses for courses. Some people get comfort from being told how to live their lives and what to think but others are tortured by it. Some people couldn't imagine anyone else being responsible for their life but others need to think someone has responsibility over them.
afrogonalog
Level 5
Aug 5, 2021
0
I wonder how many of these people are anti-vaxxers as they don't want the government telling what to do. Talk about double standards.
JackPedigo
Level 9
Aug 4, 2021
0
None of them because their smart enough to know better, the government has nothing to do with Orthodox Judaism
@lerlo Anyone who can believe the extremist BS from any religion will believe anything. Orthodox Jews included.
@JackPedigo You wondered and I told you the answer but as you say anyone can believe anything
Jews are among the worst hypocrites in that while it gives lip-service to academics, has no interest in science or scientific understanding. In a Christian-dominated society, Judaism embraces the sociopathic behavior of self-isolation. Knowing their presence represents a repudiation of Christianity, they nonetheless wear clothes that make them immediately identifiable. This represents a stick-in-the-eye middle-finger to everyone else. Not exactly endearing.
Arrogance/egomania is its own drug and Jews use that high to mitigate their pathetic existence.
racocn8
Level 9
Aug 4, 2021
0
The racist chapter of Agnostic is over at Slug. 
I find you antisemitism disturbing, perhaps you should go back to your KKK or neonazi party where your feeling are more acceptable.
Heil!
Jews are no better or worse than anyone else. All religious people have some hypocrisy mingled in. The orthodox type, just more so.
@skado Jews are not a race, thus the term racist is an error. Many Jews also imagine themselves as somehow genetically/intellectually superior, rather than benefitting from their culture's push towards academics. I salute the latter, but the Jews have no monopoly on that.
.
@MrDragon @Secretguy I am anti-Semitic only as a subset of my anti-theism. I also denounce those Conservative and Orthodox Jews, the majority of which support Republicans and Republican ideology of bigotry, and who are now (de facto) paradoxically support the KKK and neonazis. I give kudos to the Reform Jews some of whom advocate social justice and eschew the bigotry of the Conservative and Orthodox Jews. Also, a goodly number of agnostics and atheists come from a Jewish culture. Some of them retain those trappings; hey, whatever.
I would just as quickly skewer any religion to the extent I have knowledge of it.
@racocn8 Yes, Israel is just ahead of most of the world in scientific everything but they have no interest in science or academics, check the Nobel prizes someday smart guy (22% of all recipients between 1901 and 2020, not bad for 2/10 of 1% of the world's population) and get your head out of the sand.
@lerlo Exactly. I fully expect that a belief system that reveres truth would respect scientific truths, although scientific truths generally dwarf those from religions. That was my point all along, except that you chose to read the post carelessly.
@skado No, such characterizations are not racism. The term race has certainly lost the validity of its historic meanings, but the behaviors of bigotry remain all too real. As for characterizing classes of people, you're proposing to do away with all such labels for any reason? Good luck with that.
@racocn8 "Carelessly?" Read the first line of your comment. If I substituted your name for Jews in that sentence would I be speaking about your prior belief in religion? You can't walk it back without removing your post and admitting that unfortunately the whole Jewish culture is based on academics and science. Believe it or not it is possible to be a rocket scientist and be religious. Sorry if it doesn't meet with your requirements. Tell me what religion you were/are and let's try and match that religion's "academics and science" with that of the Jewish religion. Of course you ducked the science of kosher meats response...
@lerlo Kosher law may have been based on anecdotal experience, but other than that, it has no scientific basis whatever. Please provide evidence/proof. Your statement that the whole Jewish culture is based on academics and science is plainly false - - Academics yes, science, not a whit. Many scientists are Jews because science requires scholastic discipline. However, Judaism does not teach any science, and Orthodox Jews remain Creationists.
Many of the Jewish traditions were based on proven myths, and are often just as absurd as those of other religions. It is particularly egregious that Judaism claims that Jews built the pyramids when they had nothing to do with it. Probably the whole of Exodus is fiction, but Passover goes on and on. It's religion - - which means it's bullshit.
Glad I don't know you.
@racocn8 you will continue your anti-semitic beliefs no matter what. Now you've backed off the Jews "give lip-service to academics" bullshit comment you made and are just too dense to back off the rest. Here's an article you won't read about the science of kosher.
[huffingtonpost.ca]
Having lived a life of anti-semitism I don't put up with it anymore, in any form. I'm sure you've never dealt with any discrimination in your life so you have no clue what it's about. And I can disown god all I want but if my mother was Jewish you anti-semites are going to kill me anyway because I'm still Jewish.
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