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I'm feeling beyond frustrated and feel a strong need to vent. And you poor souls have provided a tolerant venue .... so "Sorry" in advance.

This has to do with the "Blame the victim" thesis that seems so pervasive in our society.

We can start with religion where it might well originate.

"Pray for what you want/need." .... When it doesn't work .... "You aren't doing it right." or "You must have done something wrong." or "God has a different plan for you, you have to figure out what it is. Here buy these inspirational videos they will help you do it right. Just keep buying them until something works."

That's bad enough, but it doesn't stop there .... it goes on with MLM's

"Work hard and you will get rich." .... When it doesn't work .... "You aren't doing it right." or "You must have done something wrong." or "Here, buy these motivational tapes, they will help you do it right. Just keep buying them until something works."

And it just goes on into other things, there's a whole industry built on "Human interpersonal communication" .... this pseudoscience has spawned such gems as "Brigg's Meyer" Personality Categories, Micro Expressions, Active Listening, Birth Order Personality Types ...... What do they all have in common, besides being scientifically debunked and flourishing anyway??

I bet you have already guessed; .... When it doesn't work .... "You aren't doing it right." or "You must have done something wrong." or "Here, buy these motivational tapes, they will help you do it right. Just keep buying them until something works."

It's the 21st Century and we are still neck deep in snake oil. When does it end? How does it end? Please tell me, I want to light the fuse!!!

Normanbites 7 Mar 19

Enjoy being online again!

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Sorry for you as well for having the misguided impression that this site is a place for tolerance. Like most 'believers', they tolerate only what doesn't call into question THEIR personally possessed, off the shelf, thought systems. Don't depart too far from some of their paths and most of their 'sacred' ideological notions or you'll see intolerance at least as reactionary and vile as you'll get from any fanatic Christian, Muslim or Jew.

Most here have merely traded theologies for some kind of ideology or had the ideology in the first place and believe themselves to be 'free thinkers' for having dumped only the select fictions; the easier to reject yet no less fear instilling beliefs.

Snake oil is very popular here. Reminds me of a story told by Huey Long comparing a couple of ideological opposites in the 1930's that, like today, really weren't opposites.


Well written. As long as people believe in divine intervention, it's going to take time. Our job is to keep pushing the pont

It's just a little more than that. If something doesn't work or doesn't work because you didn't believe hard enough or "didn't do it right" .... it might well be a scam and not your fault at all.

As this author points out, we are blamed for a lot or blame ourselves for a lot that is simple luck;



Better Education and Equality.
Get your representatives to double or triple school funding and low income housing.


I've heard there's a sucker born every day, lol.


I'll help you for three installments of $99.99.


Ending all that means taking personal responsibility. I don't see that happening any time soon - I'd like to see earthquakes, monsoons and tornadoes stop too 😔.


I've found solace in stoicism. There are more modern takes on old maxims and philosophies, one book which I really enjoyed "Atomic Habits" by James Clear who was a guest on Sam Harri's podcast.

The books touches on advice i've heard over the years, however, the author expands on points and uses examples of from elite athletes, chess players, comedians that continually break through their own identity, and habits forming better practices. (i understand how ironic is must seem dropping a book on self improvement in this topic, but hey, it was truly a good read)

Sundays I usually watch Joel Osteen as comedic relief, but also examine how he speaks, and delivers the same snake oil/ MLM scam advices week after week. It's incredible how when you watch it, as a former believer, how so many people are entranced still. This must have been how neo felt when he was initially released from the Matrix, looking down at all those pods.


You are mostly talking about Calvinism, one of the worst things to come out of religion, all this talk of the deserving and undeserving, etc. Those who are worthy of good things and a good life, and those who aren't. Yes, it is all very sick and cruel...

I hadn't made the association with Calvinism. It's obvious you are right. Thanks!

I have read that the comic Calvin and Hobbes was a reference to those philosophies.


It will continue for as long as human beings are ignorant, gullible, lazy and stupid. So pretty much forever. The greatest factor between success and failure in this world isn't attitude, talent, perseverence nor any of the virtues of hard work or persistence they claim, it's luck.

Bu they never tell you that because hard work, attitude, persistence -- these are all things we can control while luck is just something that randomly happens in our favor. It can't be controlled, it can't be relied upon and it's random. It's much easier to sell that idea that you have control over what happens to you than to say"Maybe it will or maybe it won't. All you can do is try your best and hope it works out"

That sucks bu that's reality.


Humans are flawed...Competitive and greedy. If you can remedy those character traits and then equalize the economical imbalance and wipe out poverty then you would be on the road to ending the blame the victim game.
People are pressured by expectation and desperation. They will try the most outlandish things just to feel like they might have a chance. Each generation has their own spin on the "snake oil" con. You can't change it. Educate the ones you can and hope for the best. 🙂

Betty Level 8 Mar 19, 2022

It won't end for the brainwashed, but it should have ended for you, right?

It has stopped for me. But it does limit my potential friendships when a potential friend starts "pitching" or is a dedicated "believer". That is frustrating.

@Normanbites welcome to the world of minorities?

@Mofo1953 Apparently so and most of us look like you and me. So much for dating!! 😀

@Normanbites Why let it frustrate you? If your being your true self that’s great. Other peoples opinions aren’t your problem. Those “dedicated believers” probably would not be true friends anyway.

@Normanbites sorry, dude. I don't date, I fuck.

@Mofo1953 OK, but I'm even less interested in that if you are my only candidate. Sorry!

@Normanbites I wasn't offering.

@Mofo1953 Thanks!! I feel better!


If I understood correctly, that's exactly where Science's value came from, Which provides a method to prove and accept phenomena as universal facts, the thing you can count on, what you can repeat and repeat and repeat... with the same outcome for everyone!
The problem is still people value Pseudoscience As something that can rely on!
Pseudoscience and Naive minds are the Main issues!
Science's Method and Science itself is the true Way to go, and for sure it isn't flawless, but at least we can be sure it fixes itself during the time.
science gives us Logic and an Analytic mind, it provides reliable references, shows our action consequences without any biases, and ... all, exactly what we need to find a better path.
Pseudoscience is the charlatan's weapon. count from religions to today's business and politics.

Diaco Level 7 Mar 19, 2022

Apart from math, science doesn't PROVE anything. There is always doubt/error-bars/new info. It can disprove things.

@FearlessFly Well, true, but we use Math & mathematical logic almost in all the science branches, right!? and yes, science proves, but its proof isn't absolute for itself "Uncertainty" ( Not in all the branches ). and as I said "it fixes itself during the time", which includes disproving things, even itself as well ( as long as the evidence is consistent with the theory, we consider the theory validated ),... 🙂


It isn't ending in our lifetime. Just flow with life the water course way. You're in a stream floating having a ball and all of a sudden you realize there are turds everywhere. Don't freak out or you'll drown. Just stay off the bottom as that's where turds congregate. Imagine they are wet whatchmacallit bars. We got to let this bunch of turds erode over time as forces from the stream go to work on them. Be patient, turds do erode.

Your septic system analogy…. Is less than inspiring. 😁


Sounds about right. I recall the film "Blazing Saddles" where Mel Brooks could not do the paddleball right and he says "this thing is broken." You just gotta wait for that right plan for you from god. Let me sell you self help books along the way. You aren't doing it right.


The bottom line is, happy people are content, so they don't buy anything. The whole point of sales is make them believe they are unhappy, so that then you can sell them the solution.

Which is why religion, which is pure sales, without even a product, at least not one you get to collect until after you are dead, (No returns so far.) is in the business of promoting unhappiness more than anything else.

The secret of happiness is simple, first you must be free of the things that make you unhappy, pain, hunger, cold, fear etc., which is not too hard for most westerners. And then you must learn to value the gifts that you have, which is called appreciation, and which is best acquired through learning. And guess what, there are a lot of institutions, I need not name them, who are opposed to things like social responsibility, unless they control it, which promotes the freedom from cold, hunger, pain etc. for everyone, and they also oppose education, (only read one book).

Unnervingly simple, direct and effective analysis .... Ouch! .... and thanks, I guess.

Sounds like very Buddhist principles there... Nothing wrong with that....

@TomMcGiverin Never really been Buddhist, but people get to the same place by different routes, I would think.

Now that sounds Buddhist too. LOL


I will also apologize in advance, but the truth is, if you post something, people are going to respond.
So here’s mine:
I’m not sure I understand your complaint.
Victim of what?
My experience of life tells me I have to figure it out for myself.
And if what I try doesn’t work, then I have to try something else. And if that doesn’t work, I can buy some tapes, or a book, or an hour with a counselor, or whatever is available. But the final solution is my responsibility. I don’t feel that makes me a victim. Snake oil isn’t the only product on the shelf. What I choose is my responsibility.

Did I misunderstand your point?

As far as I can tell, it ends when we take full responsibility for our own happiness.
Light that fuse now!

skado Level 9 Mar 19, 2022

"..... it ends when we take full responsibility for our own happiness."
I fully concur with that.

My "gripe" simplified is this;

  1. Someone says they have a problem they are trying to work through.
  2. Arbitrary charlatan says, "Here, I have this product/method that always works."
  3. First person tries the product/method with unsatisfying results. First person complains.
  4. Charlatan says, "you are doing it wrong" or some other version of "it's your fault."
  5. First person buys tapes/videos/advice to make it work which it rarely if ever does.
  6. Charlatan gets rich.

and finally

  1. I vent about it and you answer. Did you see the victim this time? And yes, you are right, the solution is in the victims hands. But I would still like to stop it.

I feel ya. I would like for tornadoes to stop.

@skado To paraphrase my Norwegian grandfather "Uff da!"

@skado Victims of indoctrination. Victims of social control. Victims of murder in the name of a fictitious god.

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