So it has nothing to do with communism!!!

You are absolutely right ... Unfortunately the popular genre of tales glorifies draconian regimes. In fairy tales royalties are the good one. Only rarely do they get a bad press. There is the occasional bad queen, but in general the fairy tales give brutal absolutist regimes a positive spin.

No, born and raised in Russia. Much worst.

They are evil or worst.

@zesty You are traumatised ... I have known people who were traumatised under different regimes.

@PontifexMarximus I'm the least traumatised person you could ever meet! I achieved almost everything a woman potentially can, including a payback to commie gangsters who tried to screw up my life. What do you suggest: she is in disagreement with my liberal views, consistently she must be mentally disabled, let's electroshock her, make her a good communist? Or lobotomy? Typical!

@zesty I like your sense of humor which is in stark contrast to your obsession with the communist evil and the evil communism. Perhaps you wouldn't have achieved all this without that pressure.
I have the impression that despite your superior intelligence you are stuck in cliches.

Typical!!!

@PontifexMarximus This was not a joke. My achievement are not because but despite of an inhuman socialist system. You know, the typical approach for liberals is to attack the opponent personally instead of disputing the opponent's views.

And what is needed in your neck of the woods?

@PontifexMarximus We already have it. ..and it is growing.

@Silver1wun I guess public health care and education is deficient

@PontifexMarximus Public health care has become deficient and exacerbated over the time of our former administration BECAUSE education also became deficient.

An electorare that doesn't learn/isn't taught chooses leaders exploiting it's ignorance and petty greed.

That isn't just history now, but for thousands of years.

Sorry, but that is pure bullshit. The relationship between the corporation and the employed is voluntary. That is not slavery.

@IAMGROOT I assure you, I do not voluntarily work for a private corporation. I would work for myself or a worker cooperative a million times over before voluntarily working to enrich some stockholder in Delaware or whatever. The businesses, almost the whole economy, has already been privatized to the point where most people do not have the choice to not work for a capitalist. Getting to choose which capitalist isn't much of a choice. It's like getting to choose between the noose or the axe. Hyperbolic, but you get my point.

@IAMGROOT yeah right ... most people wouldn't Perform slave labour if they really had a choice. With all due respect allow me to return the bovin excrements.

@IAMGROOT why are you TROLLING here? Can't you find some capitalist friends to pal around with? SCRAM!

@Bakunin perhaps he is a financially impotent capitalist ... and now he going to stir the shit ... sorry ... the bullshit

Just stating facts. Yes, I'm a Capitalist, impotent? Hardly. Without the values flowing from Capitalism, Socialism wouldn't even be possible. As someone else already pointed out here, just look at the catastrophic failure taking place in Venezuela.

@IAMGROOT I have never been to Venezuela ... but from early childhood I was exposed to the capitalist bullshit propaganda ... The capitalist eulogy is nauseous

@pimpdaddywrinkle I agree that the US (government) has its nose in many places it shouldn't. For the record, I don't watch Fox news or any other "news" channel. I don't consider myself "well read" but what news I do get typically comes from various Internet news outlets. Here's a link to an article on the Venezuelan situation from CurrentAffairs.org [currentaffairs.org]. The article partly agrees with you that the crisis there is not a specific result of socialism, but rather of corrupt government operating under a veneer of socialism. I saw nothing in this article to indicate the US caused the crisis. Ok, fine. Regardless of that, you will never convince me that socialism is the way to go. I'm not in the 1%, but I do own half of a very small company that provides a couple of p/t jobs. My office manager makes more than I do (from the company). That is only a part-time gig for me too, but my partner and I appreciate the value of our employees. I realize that crony capitalism has caused serious damage and, sadly, most people, particularly in forums like this one, believe all capitalism is bad as a result. This is where I disagree. I will never support any flavor of collectivism.

@IAMGROOT just look what happened in Panama 。 Noriega was a useful tool ... but then he was no longer until the US were no longer happy and he was no longer needed 。。 US not happy ... sent the army or navy or whatever... firepower to resolve any issue ... ultimately the political veneer is thin

@PontifexMarximus I don't disagree that the US loves to send in the marines to deal with whatever. The US global military presence in the name of "US interests" is also bullshit. There is no justification for it. But with that said, I don't see what role the US played in the corrupt Venezuelan government, who have fleeced that country at the expense of its citizens.

@IAMGROOT To be perfectly honest I have not seen the current accounts of Venezuela ... But allow me to ask you: Why does Venezuela attract so much US attention?

@PontifexMarximus IDK. My guess is that it appears to be such an utter failure at socialism. That makes it newsworthy.

@IAMGROOT there are tons of examples of the failure of capitalism that would warrent attention ... Socialism never got a chance ...

@PontifexMarximus True, Laissez-Faire capitalism has never really been done. We have only ever seen highly regulated forms of it.

@IAMGROOT unfortunately laissez faire socialism was never given a chance either!

@pimpdaddywrinkle I think this gentleman is attached to his idea of capitalism just as other hang on to religion. It's probably the fear factor. My father was like this, but his uncle was a labourer and socialist. Unfortunately that uncle didn't have my father's eloquence otherwise the discussions could have been helpful.
Uncle Karl was a shining socialist light in the capitalist filth.

@pimpdaddywrinkle I thought you were done.

@PontifexMarximus I do not have blind faith in Capitalism. It is a system that works and that has raised the quality of life for the human race more than any other single factor in history. Collectivism will take us in the opposite direction.

@IAMGROOT Capitalist dominance has its historic roots in feudal times. The richest families in Europe had their connections to the old power structures. They made sure that no major reform would allow people to try other models.
Your claim cannot be verified because the structures have not changed.
Your belief in capitalism is your religion. So there is really no point in arguing.

@PontifexMarximus I'm not arguing and you are entitled to your opinion. Have a nice day.

@IAMGROOT it is destroying the planet. WAKE UP!

Why would they?

@pimpdaddywrinkle classless society? Bakunin was down for that.

Solution? Better system?

@zesty Social democracies can be found Denmark Finland Sweden Norway Netherlands. Denmark might have the nominal constitutional monarchy like Canada and Australia but it has the lowest wealth gap in the world thanks to its socialist leanings. Having the lowest wealth gap means free education and health, low unemployment (with a decent unemployment benefit) and low crime rates. It's a fairer system and the people are happier. Most atheists are humanists. I guess this is where we differ.

No gods, no mastera.

@Bakunin plenty of commissars... Political tin gods count sometimes even more so.

@Silver1wun or tin currencies

Sure. Welcome to the dictatorship of the proletariat! Where did I learn this?

@zesty what's your point?

@DonThiebaut You are making it for her by merely asking the question...

@Silver1wun you'll have to spell it out for me then, because I'm not getting it.

@dan325, right. The proletariat never came into power in the USSR, or any of the other so-called socialist countries. That's why they weren't socialist. And even the term 'dictatorship of the proletariat', is merely a turn of phrase to show that the emphasis for the distribution of societal power should be with the people themselves rather than on a tiny minority of political power houses. In other words, a democracy.

@DonThiebaut and they never will come into power. Before that happens Charlie Brown ( another fantasy) will actually kick the football.

@Silver1wun sorry, but when it comes to the progression of human society, I can't accept that as an answer. Sure, we should be wary of false promises being levered against us, but I'm not gonna stop trying for a more just world just because some asshats keep messing with it.

@DonThiebaut Generations now in diverse locations have been 'doing the same thing while expecting different results'. Knock yourself out.

@Silver1wun, I don't plan to do the same thing. I'm not about to pass all of my political power into the hands of a charlatan, I'm about building equitable and sustainable socialism- the real deal, where workers actually own and control their businesses. And that has and does work, slow going though it may be.

Technically, all socialism is democratic. That's kind of the entire point of socialism. Anything that is not Democratic is by nature not socialism.

@DonThiebaut
Read Marx and Engels. I had to for 12 years. Actually, Engels represented the brains and Marx was just a bully. Technically, and even theoretically, socialism is the dictatorship of the uneducated trash - the proletariat.

It seems to be working well in those Nordic countries where there is little poverty, consequently less crime and better education and health systems. It is also the Nordic countries that top the Worlds Most Happiest Countries list each year. Go figure!

@MsDemeanour
Well, comparing apples and oranges. Sweden vs. Somalia. BTW, the health providers in Scandinavia classify the patient's "social usefulness". The lower this parameter, the less healthcare one gets. We cooperated with Stockholm University, writing an adaptive, fuzzy network-based healthcare system. Still don't know how the "social usefulness factor" is defined, but it is there. Also, Finland has the highest suicide rate in the word.

@zesty, sorry, but you lost me at calling the working-class 'uneducated trash'. I don't do the whole 'it's okay to be a bigot to poor people' thing. Gtfo with that nonsense. They're human beings, every bit as capable of reasoning and learning as anyone else if given the chance.

@zesty What nonsense are you spouting about health service related to 'social usefulness'. You better source that. Just like the nonsense about Finland. [worldpopulationreview.com] You have no credibility. I won't waste my time.

@MsDemeanour
European suicide rates per 100,000 population:
Lithuania: 30
Latvia: 19
Hungary:19
Belgium: 17
Finland: 13

Lithuania, Latvia and Hungary are former socialist countries. Life was so bleak and hopeless, people still kill themselves. I'm half Russian, half Latvian and lived in Hungary a few years under socialist dictatorship.
Belgium is amazingly muslim fanatic contaminated, a lot of migrants cannot comprehend the modern word, it skews the statistics. Hence Finland the winner.

@zesty Now we also drag the Muslims into this ... Perhaps you should check what the really divisive factor in Belgium is. It is the linguistic divide between the Dutch speaking Flemish and the French speaking Walloons.

@pimpdaddywrinkle
Oh, the nice old "if you have a different viewpoint you are a Nazi" liberal BS! I'm not Ukrainian, not that it makes any difference. Do you read what you write? Quoting the classics: " think you might be Ukrainian! They where Nazi's and helped the Nazi's slaughter Jews in mass". There were Ukrainian Nazis who committed mass crimes against Jews. Yes. You cannot judge an entire nation based on the crimes of some of its members! Besides, I truly hate Nacis. Members of my family died fighting Hitler's army in WWII. My dad lost one of his arms in the war. More man and women of my family were sent to Gulag for nothing. Hitler killed 30 million people, Stalin - 80 millions. Read Soljenitsin, Arhipelagul Gulag. I'm not sure how it spells in English. Nacis were properly prosecured. Great. Have you ever heard about prosecuting the soviet communist trash? The KGB thugs? The ones who killed small kids and old grandmothers? Like Putin? Time to start this disinfection, too!