Has anyone else had a religious friend ask where your sense of morality comes from? Didn’t really know what to say except that I enjoy making people feel good. Treat people as you want to be treated. That’s psych 101 to me...
I always say I have a moral compass and some common sense.
I have had the bad misfortune in life to have sat by several death beds, and the only thing that I can think of that will bring any comfort as you lie there staring at the ceiling, is the thought that you have done your best for everyone else. That's where my morality comes from.
When I walked away from church and religion, I had one of the elder's wife call me up to get me back in. At one point, she argued that christianity is great is wonderful b/c w/o it we wouldn't have all the medical hospitals (Babtist Memorial, lebonheur methodist, etc.) I asked her how all the people in China and India have gotten medical care if only christianity is responsible for caring and compassion towards others. All I got in response was <crickets>
Yes, I have been asked by religious friends where my sense of morality comes from. My response is: It comes from my own sense of well being. What I find interesting about them asking me that question though, about morality is, when I ask them to define what they mean when they say morality, they haven't got a clue about what they are asking me. So, on a question such as this, I want to make sure about what they are actually asking me before I can even begin to answer their question. And, most of the time, they haven't got a clue what they are asking. I can also tell them that if their morality comes from authority, pronouncements and threats of punishments, and eternal torture in hellfire, then they themselves, have no morality or sense of morality, because what if they decide like we atheist that all these threats are not real? Will they they go around killing, raping and stealing? I have actually become more moral since I no longer believe in such religious, nonsense. I have become kinder and more sympathetic toward my fellow being, and even kinder to animals since I left religion behind.
I had a Christian upbringing, not a serious one really, mostly a few years of bible school until the church tried to require my parents to join. I've always tried to treat people well, the whole golden rule thing, but do look back and see how I often failed. It amazes me that people think religion is the sole gatekeeper of morality, and from experience those of the smaller, often more progressive religions can be the same.
Indeed, I have... And she knew better, but she asked anyway.
I told her what I always tell them:
"My morality comes from me. I rape as much as I want and I kill as much as I want. And on both counts, that number is 0.
I don't need some book to tell me whats right and what's wrong. I can see it for myself.
And by the by... Getting morality from the bible is questionable. Considering it condones incest, rape, murder, slavery, etc. All the things that a normal society condemns."
Human morality predates religion. Religion is not the only source of morality (questionable here too). I have this bizarre idea that I should help others, not be greedy, seek to be environmentally friendly. I have devoted my life to education based on my own moral compass.
It seems this is a question a lot of people ask of atheists, though I've never had anyone ask me that outright. The closest was a friend talking about absolute, objective truth. The problem in answering about morality is that the question itself has some serious problems. In particular, the idea of objective morality isn't a given just because someone believes in a god. There are some very different views on what's moral between different religions and even within the same religion. There's no moral universality among believers, so the question is implicitly asserting something that ostensibly sets it apart from non-theism but is patently false.
Some things I'd say:
Why isn't your morality the same as the Hindus? Or the Muslims? Or the Buddhists? Or the Westboro Baptist Church? Why are there differences among the devout?
Why don't you follow every letter of scripture? Why do you pick and choose what's moral and what's not? Where does your morality come from when you acknowledge that there's immorality in stoning people to death for working on the Sabbath or to kill children for disobedience or for a father to sacrifice a son because he has a voice in his head telling him to do so? New covenant?! No, that doesn't apply unless something specific was addressed, because Jesus is quoted as saying that he came not to abolish the law but rather to fulfill it. He never said anything about slavery, for instance, and Paul even provided rules for slaves to obey masters, yet most people today acknowledge that slavery is an immoral practice. Where does this moral sense come from, as it obviously doesn't come from God.
It's pretty easy in most cases to determine what's good and bad, or at least better and worse, based upon human experience of those things — basic things in our day-to-day experience. There are moral dilemmas that ethicists labor over, but generally it's not difficult to see why pain is less desirable than pleasure or how losing a limb is a handicap. We have an experience of what's healthy and unhealthy for society and for individuals, and each community and person is different but we tend to see similarities emerge early on in human development, even in things as simple as empathy. There are survival elements baked into human brain wiring, and that is part of our morality. We can think in non-religious terms about the value of life and choice and so on and come to some better understanding of what's good and bad or why there's conflict in making such determinations. It's complex, but it's clear that one's belief in God alone is insufficient to provide an objective moral framework.
We see moral structures emerge in other animals to varying degrees, guiding interactions with others in their community. The more social the species, the more advanced these structures are. We don't see wolves praying to Jesus, or chimps praying to Vishnu, or lions praying to Allah, yet we see moral principles at work. Without a belief in God, monkeys have a sense of fairness. How? Likewise, humans develop rudimentary moral sense in early childhood, without a clear concept of God (to say nothing of belief).
From myself and society, it's a slow and steady process. We are happiest when doing good, we wrestle with tough questions and do the best we can, learn from our mistakes and move forward.
We find plenty in religion that is morally reprehensible and fight against it rather than adhering to it blindly.
One thing I find is that morality tends to be fluid when you are dealing with religion. Morality changes from sect to sect, from religion to religion from time period to time period. So really you have only a non-religious morality that is consistent because they are based on human principles and in the video greed is mentioned. Greed can be seen as moral behaviour in a religious context. But destructive greed is never seen as moral behaviour in an atheist context ---
Tried to find an attribution for the quote and could not immediately do so, but it is basically...
If you need the threat of eternal punishment to keep you from doing harm to others, you are not a good person.
You are a psychopath on a leash.
I had known a guy for several years but he had never asked what religion I was. When asked I told him I was an atheist and his immediate response was "But you seem so moral." I explained that morals don't come from holy books and it was pretty easy because his ex had an affair with their preacher and his brother isn't a very ethical person to put it mildly although he is very religious. I didn't bring up those things directly but tend to nudge toward them when circumstances warrant.
No but if I did I'd have some fun with them, fake them into thinking I had done all sorts of horrific things and had no idea whats wrong with it before asking wtf is wrong with them and telling them they need Jesus ? Then I guess I'd have to explain mirror neurons, the biological imperative for empathetic nerve systems, the undeniable benefits of the golden rule and how christianity didn't invent compassion, etc. It'll be a long night but at least it started with a laugh.
I would ask them where they find morality in a bible that is so full of immoral actions justified and sanctioned by an immoral god.
I would tell them, from evolved human nature, supplemented by reason, knowledge of history and cultural inheritance; in other words from the same place as yours. Only mine is modest, tries to move on, adapt and keep up with the times, it does not pretend to be perfect, to have finally answered every question or to do so by claiming a false divine authority which keeps it ill adapted and only suited to a distant primitive past. Religious morality is only secular morality trying to big itself up with extra authority, which in the end only makes it harshly inhuman an inflexible.
I would then like to point out that the fact that as there are so many different religious moralities, often deeply at odds with one another, they surely follow exactly the pattern I would expect from early pre-global communications cultures, if they were in fact secular moralities, and that if they were inspired by god they would all be the same, or at least as similar as the modern consensus seem to be. Therefore religious morality is a very strong proof that there is no god!
I was raised in the LDS/Mormon faith. My parents raised me to stand up for what is right, and to treat others as I would like to be treated. When I got old enough to think for myself, I held onto how one should treat others and standing up for what is right. I do not believe in organized religion - or the Mormon faith, and highly doubt that there is a "God" or "supreme being". I choose to hold myself to a high standard of ethics and integrity because that is what I have found to be moral. I am able to think and deduce for myself on such matters. I do not need a religion to tell me this. My past experience with religion has mostly exposed me to hypocrisy.
It does not take a god to make people realize that others do not like being poked in the eye with a stick the same way you do not like being poked in the eye with a stick. Morality comes from the societal system that you live in. This is why morality is slightly different in different parts of the world. Otherwise you might have your god changing it slightly because of copyright laws.