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You Know God Exists (Nudge-Nudge, Wink-Wink)

Within the scope of people who claim that God exists, you usually get metaphysical arguments that 'prove' that existence. Arguments like how there must have been a first cause; how life, the Universe and everything is designed and fine-tuned; where did morality come from if not from God, how God is a necessary being, etc. But then again...

You can get some real theist "nut-jobs" like, for example, Christian apologist Sye Ten Bruggencate who gives an absolute proof of God's actual existence as follows. Everyone knows that God actually exists, therefore God actually must exist. And the actual evidence for that according to Bruggencate is stated explicitly in the Bible (Romans 1: 18-21) and you will not question this for God will not be questioned (Romans 9: 20) or mocked (Galatians 6:7). God exists because you know God exists because the Bible says so. So there! Case closed!

So the Bible is absolutely true since it is God's absolute word. Of course how do you know that God didn't lie to you? Well the obvious answer according to Bruggencate is that God doesn't lie. So there! Take that you non-believers and stick it up your - wherever.

Anyway, I gather this must be knowledge you are born with. Maybe it comes as value-adding when you get your officially heaven-issued soul. Anyway, the 'fact' that everyone knows that God actually exists certainly comes as news to me. At birth I thought we were all blank slates and dry sponges ready to absorb and assimilate whatever version of reality (nature and nurture) that reality throws at us. A blank slate means no preconceived concepts of anything, including God.

Anyway, I don't know that God actually exists. I'm sure a newborn baby hasn't a clue. An elderly person with an advanced state of dementia isn't even aware of his / her own existence and that of his / her immediate family far less that of the actual existence of an invisible magic man in the sky. Humans living 50,000 years ago didn't apparently know about God (no cave paintings of an elderly bearded male sitting up in the clouds surrounded by winged angels) and even when writing came to pass the first gods that were written about bore no similarity to the Christian God by any stretch of the imagination. Further, if everybody knew innately that there was just such a God, and only that God, then why have hundreds of other religions come up with drastically differing variation on the theme of deities? How did they arise and evolve? And if we all innately know that God exists, what's the point in sending out missionaries and putting Bibles in hotel rooms?

If you argue that there are other gods that need to be taken into consideration, well there's a ready answer for that too. There are no other gods according to Bruggencate (the Bible differs on this point in numerous chapters and verses), just idols and admitting that other 'idols' exist is idolatry and that's an absolute no-no because God, who you absolutely know exists, says so.

But apparently if you don't know that God exists then you have actually and deliberately suppressed this absolute bit of factual knowledge given to you (presumably by God Himself) for one evil or sinful reason or other.

If you have even half a rational mind to think original thoughts with then I think one can easily dismiss Sye Ten Bruggencate. But don't take my word for it. Watch Bruggencate rant and rave and all but foam at the mouth in debates, interviews and lectures on YouTube. Wow!

By johnprytz
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19 comments

0

I find that it comes down to this.. Deists want to provide the weakest possible argument for existance and I personally don't care. Its fine if you want to beleive that, I don't care. Its the next step that bothers me ..
They go from "It is POSSIBLE that a god exists" so it Is not absurd to believe that my particular book from antiquity is no longer mythhology and fiction. Furthermore it deserves to be treated as a divine authority.

The leap is so large I just can't imagine how they are possibly serious.

gonzo93304 Level 2 Oct 19, 2018
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I suspect that in many cases this 'factual knowledge' was drummed into them at a very young age by adults (parents, family, neighbours, authority figures, the community at large) who they trusted to know what they were talking about. Once indoctrinated it's hard to shake off that indoctrination. So, when they become adults, they in turn indoctrinate their children, and so the cycle continues.

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Silly circular arguments in which the assumption and the conclusion are essentially the same thing. It's like: I am right because I know I am right, and you know that I am right even if you don't consciously know that you know that I am right. Right?

Heraclitus Level 7 Oct 19, 2018
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Sort of like the circular reasoning that the Bible must be right because the Bible is the Word of God and the Word of God is always right so therefore the Bible is right.

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Bruggencate is a delusional buffoon with possible mental illness, this book of a collection of loosely cobbled together heavily edited Bronze Age nonsense isn’t worth wasting any thought over
Let’s concentrate on world peace!

Hercules3000 Level 6 Oct 17, 2018
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You're just not going to get world peace as long as Bronze Age nonsense exists (in all of its various monotheistic glorious guises) and exerts it's radical influence over the great unwashed.

@johnprytz that was kind of the point I was making

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It is said, "man created God". So, I become a man ti create a god. The god i created I call Taco God. Taco God is any person that has eaten a taco. Tac oil s are real, people are real and people really eat tacos. Atheism illogical. Millions of people have eaten a taco and are now gods by way if eating a taco and they do not even know they are a Taco God.

Antifred Level 6 Oct 14, 2018
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Pass the reefer mate, I'd like to taste that weed!

@rcandlish i have heard of weed in brownies. I suppose you could make a weed taco.

@rcandlish that is some strong stuff you’re smokin’ kid

@Hercules3000

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I dismiss anyone who makes the claim that any gods have ever existed.
Unless and until there is credible, verifiable evidence of the existence of ANY god, I will continue to believe there is no such thing.

KKGator Level 9 Oct 13, 2018
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This is an absolutely perfectly reasonable position to take. But, the question arises, what kind of credible, verifiable evidence would convince you? It would I assume have to be of such a nature that no other possible explanation could arise or exist. So, out of curiosity, what would it take to convince you?

@johnprytz I'll let you know if it ever happens. I can't even imagine what it would look like.

@johnprytz The fact is that an "alien" with magic powers showing up and doing magic would only prove we are not the only sentient life. I would assume the magic is technology I don't understand, and that the alien has an origin. Occam's razor would make the assumption that this was god rather low on the list, though given time I might come to that conclusion. Needless to say it is sure not going to be my conclusion based on 0 evidence.

Actually there is a (sort of) answer as to what kind of actual evidence would convince you that God exists. Now you will not know the answer, but an all-knowing God would know the answer and could act accordingly!

@johnprytz There is no god.

I quite agree. It's just that those who are fence-sitters and wonder what it would take to get them off the fence and onto the side of the True Believer could put the burden-of-proof on an alleged all-knowing God instead of straining their brain.

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Fundamentalist "thought" is a fun-house hall of mirrors ... that's actually no fun whatsoever.

Circular reasoning and special pleading and gaslighting are all they have, and Bruggencate at least has the virtue of cutting right to the chase and being loud and proud about it. You know what you're getting.

mordant Level 8 Oct 12, 2018
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Hitch sums it up for me.

Heathen_555 Level 5 Oct 12, 2018
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I could, and actually have, spent many hours on YouTube watching the late Christopher Hitchens in theological debates and in lectures / speeches. What the world needs more of is Hitchens and way less of say the likes of William Lane Craig.

Hitch summed everything up, we’ll never see his like again, still sadly missed, such wit and charisma

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I really like all the points you make. And to expand on some of your points I would like to make some bold statements maby some of you guys might like to consider 1 I think evolution should not only be a theory of the diversity of the species but maby an actual law of physics, here's what I mean knowing the understanding of how evolution works if you look around at everything in our life when ever changes are made theyre usually made with the attempt to improve opon the Pryor if it does not show to be an improvement it will then get discarded. So I think we live completely in an evolutionary universe. 2 it doesn't appear to me that the universe looks designed , in the past I thought that the dna molicule looked designed, but then I thought how could it be designed because there wouldn't have been anything to contrast that design to in other words it would seem that nature invents and observers improve opon . An example houses look designed but wouldn't you agree that they are just improvements on caves . Caves have walls a ceiling and an opening into.Any way like to here your thoughts on those examples I gave you. also as a bonus I may be able to prove something can come from nothing, stay tuned

enohgeeohdee Level 2 Oct 12, 2018
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IMHO the laws, principles and relationships inherent in the physical sciences haven't evolved. They are the same as they have always been. What has 'evolved' is emergent phenomena, like life from non-life and consciousness from a state of non-consciousness.

If you can somehow prove that an absolute something came from a state of absolute nothingness then you will 1) upset my apple-cart and worldview no end, and 2) deserve the Nobel Prize.

@johnprytz

@johnprytz wow thought this site was where we can discuss ideas openly not have them dismissed pre betum I was just stating something that I find amazing but hey you must know it all I'm out

You noted and logged your idea; I noted and logged my idea. No problem. Now the next stage is that you somehow have to actually demonstrate that, for example, biological evolution maybe an actual law of physics. Saying things is easy but to be a more convincing statement it needs to be backed up with some sort of evidence or demonstration. If you can do that, great. I'll look forward to it.

Edited

@johnprytz First of all I am aware that the laws are fixed and don't evolve I was making an observation about the universe itself.While I will admit that when the universe formed there were no selective choices made. That because of the governing laws of physics this universe had no choice in forming the way it did and thats where I think the truth lies. What do I mean by that? Well We see what we see today because it is what it is. So whether or not one can agree if the universe evolved , that could be a debate, however we could somewhat agree that the universe may have been at one time a singularity and now is what it is today. So when we apply selective decisions into the process it takes longer to get to the truth. And full disclosure I do not believe in absolute truths because there so hard to uncover however the evolutionary process determines that if something cannot adapt to its environment it cannot prevail. I wasnt trying to make a claim it was just an observation of how things work. I mean that if we could agree that the laws of physics determine what the universe actually is and that it may have started out as a singularity then became what it is today it looks to me like evolution is in the drivers seat. So when any selective process is applied it isn't the chooser that determines whether or nor it was the right choice evolution ultimately determines that. And what I observe is that it seems to apply to just about everything . For example ,Blockbuster, how well we're the decisions affecting it made for it to adapt to the environment iorment it was in as compared to netflix. Maby just maby if we can realize that it doesn't apply to life forms exclusivly. that it does have an effect on everyday decisions, that some people who are either afraid of or don't want to believe in it may be willing to take another look at the process. And also I am kind of curious whether or not anyone else sees this or maby even understands what I'm trying to conclude .1It just doesn't seem to make sense that an idea that does nothing to advance would ever prevail .Oops this doesn't seem to apply to religion however as we know evolution takes a long time sometimes and with the decline in religion overall it looks as if evolution may be having its say .we can only hope.

Yes, the Universe has evolved (changed over time which is what evolution really is) and is different now than it was back just post the Big Bang event. And the Universe will continue to evolve, but to what ultimate fate is still up in the ether. A Big Crunch? A Heat Death? A Big Rip? There probably won't be any sentient consciousness around then to observe that ultimate fate.

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Sye Ten Bruggencate and others like him simply need to study how the bible came into existence and when it came into existence. Along with this will be the many books left out and why those that were allowed were allowed. It can then be easily seen that this bible is so far removed form Jesus and god that it is not even funny. When you see the 66 books independently you can also understand why the bible contradicts itself. Bruggencate is like so many others in so much that he believed before he studied and people like this will believe the book and believe it proves itself and god. Real life does not work that way.

DenoPenno Level 8 Oct 12, 2018
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Not only is there the issue of why some books were omitted and others included*, I understand that other, but still Christian faiths, use Bibles that don't contain the traditional number of books, as say the King James Version has.

*You can't really have much faith in the Book of Revelation when it just barely, and I mean just barely, was incorporated into the Biblical texts at all.

@johnprytz I fully agree but most Evangelicals won't. Once I even had a Mormon asking me how I thought "it was going to play out." She was asking me about "end times" as explained in Revelation. The whole idea is absurd.

The one thing I just love about the End Times, the Last Days, the Second Coming, Armageddon, the Apocalypse, etc. is that tens of thousands of people (including Biblical scholars) over literally two thousand years, have predicted with near certainty, when that was going to happen - with a 100% failure rate! You'd think that the modern loony tunes religious right-wingers would have learned a lesson from that, but no, the prophecy goes on and on. There are a hard core of End Times fanatics who just refuse to cease their End of Days fantasies. Maybe that means that their here-and-now lives are just so meaningless and miserable that they long for the Second Coming and the alleged 'rapture'.

@johnprytz You may be right. They seem to see this fallacy when they look at the religion of others and they even point it out to you. Then they are right back into their own fallacy again to predict another fail.

Yes, True Believers in one Religion (call it A) will be totally dismissive of another Religion (call it B) and True Believers of Religion B will be dismissive of the True Believers of Religion A. My religion is the one true faith and all other religions are false religions. That leads to the conclusion oft voiced by atheists that while all religions can't be true, all religions can be false.

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Yes there is a god...he drinks an awful lot of booze and smokes a bunch of strong reefer...that is why the world is so fucked today!

creative51 Level 6 Oct 11, 2018
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Well put!

Stilltrying1964 Level 4 Oct 11, 2018
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Did God put these numbskulls on this Earth for the amusement of the Sane People? smile009.gif

irascible Level 8 Oct 11, 2018
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Then he was not very good at jokes either.

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To the argument, "Everyone knows that God actually exists, therefore God actually must exist," I would point out Matthew 7:13-14. Here is the New International Version:

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

In other words, do not form your beliefs based on popularity. Think for yourself.

Also, as johnprytz points out, the premise "Everyone knows that God actually exists" is false. There are about seven billion people on this planet, and nearly that many definitions of "God." If god is love (1 John 4), then yes, I would say that love exits. I can also agree that the CONCEPT of gods exists, but not the reality of gods. At the very idea of a real immortal person sitting on a great white throne in the sky, stroking his long, white beard, micromanaging the universe, and condemning dead people to Hell, I can only laugh out loud at such absurdity. I KNOW that Bruggencate's god does NOT exist, so I disprove that premise. Without me, "eveyone" is not everyone.

BestWithoutGods Level 5 Oct 11, 2018
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Let them watch this and watch them squirm starting about 5 minutes in.

[agnostic.com]

evidentialist Level 8 Oct 11, 2018
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These apologists make me drink

beerhungry Level 6 Oct 11, 2018
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I'm familiar with Bruggencate and his silly ideas. Basically his argument is "You know god exists, you simply choose to deny it." He uses the bible to prove the existence of god in the same way I would use Mother Goose if I were trying to prove the existence of Humpty-Dumpty. He references a work of fiction to prove the existence of a fictional character.

He also has a smugness that I find comical given the stupidity of his arguments.

Sgt_Spanky Level 6 Oct 11, 2018
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I've seen quite a few debates between believers, and non-believers. A good part of them were civil, which I like, I like good conversation as well.

But I have to say that Sye Ten Bruggencate is the biggest tool I've ever seen. He is a broken record of circular reasoning.

I've seen many interviews of those who had debated him, and they all say the same thing, "never again".
I don't blame them.

TristanNuvo Level 7 Oct 11, 2018
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You can’t use logic to dissuade someone who didn’t use logic to reach their viewpoint in the first place.

“Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to this level and beat you with experience” -Mark Twain

reversehalo Level 5 Oct 11, 2018
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I love that quote why not post it on the Quotes Group page.

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I'll just ignore the YouTube videos thank you.

jlynn37 Level 8 Oct 11, 2018
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