So basically you are saying men are Neanderthals that just want to have sex with as many women as possible for their entire lives?

Sex is extremely important to me. I left a sexless marriage. By sexless I mean zero the last 5 years and maybe 3-4 times total the 5 prior. I need sex in a relationship.

But!! Relationship is the key. I want someone I’m compatible with inside and outside the bedroom.

To your friend who gets 200 messages a day? Kudos! I get maybe 5 a week. Many are just hi or hey. Some are hi sexy. Very few mention anything in my profile (music, books, etc). Very occasionally nice smile or eyes. I’m know I’m not going to win any beauty contests but I don’t think I’m ugly either.

While I appreciate your thorough explanation, I find it difficult to believe all men are as you explained. Why do any men get married then?

Yes, I get it sucks getting rejected. I can’t be the only woman who initiates contact. I don’t like not hearing back either. It certainly doesn’t mean I’m going to start getting crude. I know that’s not going to work any better.

“If it's not even permissible to tell a women who ostensibly is LOOKING for a sexual partner (and if you're on a dating site to find a Platonic relationship-uh....really?), you're down to hookers and porn. Nobody likes to talk about this, except to say how awful it is.“

Sure I’m looking for a sexual partner. Partner! Not a one night stand!! Saying hi sexy to me says you are ONLY looking for sex. Be somewhat creative. Skim my profile....find something you remotely relate to and mention it. You can do that in 1 or 2 sentences. I don’t want or need a book from you on the first message.

“The point I'm trying to make here is, when it comes to romance for men, sex isn't some flourish or garnish that makes it extra-special, it's the fucking main course. To dismiss a guy with the words "he just wants sex" is to strike at his core, and say, in his mind, he is utterly worthless.

Now, of COURSE, we realize that there is more to life and love than sex. We hold jobs, we watch the funny videos, we listen to music, admire fine art, and appreciate intellectual discussion. But we do NOT need women for ANY of these things. So, in a way, some of these men are giving you a "litmus test", if you reject THEIR sexuality, they have no use for you. NEXT!”

So you have zero interest in doing any of those things with a sexual partner? She is ONLY there for sex? You want nothing else to do with her?

“If a woman does NOT desire to be complimented on her beauty, then why does she wear make-up, and style her hair, and get her nails done, and put on the pretty dresses? This frankly makes no sense to us. What, we should say: "Meh-you're kind of plain, but let's give it a go anyway"? Or: "I'm not really horny, and I don't desire you that much, but hey-let's be pen pals!"

Sure!! Compliment me. Tell me you like my dress, eyes, smile whatever. But don’t just say hey sexy. Specially say I really like your eyes. Or your smile is beautiful. But you’re sexy is generic. You aren’t looking at me specifically. Or telling me what you think is sexy.

“Women want men to lie. But, we've got to be honest, too. It's a trap. Do you believe any of these men contact these women because they have zero sexual interest in them? Would you WANT that? We hope (mostly in vain, I might add) that someone will catch our fire. It's possible to be more adept at this, but it involves a good deal of misdirection, and waiting that does not come naturally.”

What do you think we want you to lie about? Certainly don’t hurt my feelings and tell me you think I’m fat. If you are only looking for sex, don’t lie about that either. Don’t fuck me and then ghost me.

Yes I want men to be interested in me sexually. But do you only want me that way? Are you not interested in seeing a band with me? Doing something else with me? Anything? Or strictly sex?

I signed up for a dating service once, in another country. I received hundreds of responses, many of them consisting of: "Hi, I think you're handsome." I got in the habit of just deleting these, because there was nothing to go on, no opening for a real conversation.

So it’s ok for men to just delete those messages but you are saying women shouldn’t delete guys saying hey sexy? You honestly don’t see a double standard there????

@Marcie1974 There's a lot to unpack, here. So, no, men aren't all Neanderthals. Except, yes, we kind of are. You see, there's our basic instincts (not much changed for 50,000 years), and then there's our learned cultural experiences (changing every year). Many men wrestle with the disparity of their primal urges, and the expectations of civilization. Most of them do alright, but some....not so much.

We're programmed (genetically) to want to mate often, and with as many partners as possible. That's not what women would prefer, in general, because they'd like us to stick around. Clearly, some sort of middle ground is called for, which is why most cultures have marriage.

It is definitely NOT true that men have zero interest in doing other fun things (besides sex) with their partners. It's just that these other things aren't the impetus for the initial attraction. We're kind of stupid that way, because we often eschew non-sexual relationships that might turn out to be rewarding friendships. And part of this is due to the metric by which dating sites measure "success".

I can understand why you interpret my closing remarks as hypocritical. Actually, no, it's fine if women delete these messages (in my opinion). No one owes you a response. Period. The point I was getting at is, this behavior is fairly normal, and if it makes you "uncomfortable", this may be the wrong planet for you. Because it's going to happen a LOT. If you're looking for more...by all means, ignore those messages. You're well within your rights to respond or not, or block, or report if it's warranted. What you're not going to be able to do is change the general behavior of men, or the ways they think.

Testosterone turns some of our feelings all the way up to 10. I don't know how to describe to you how this feels. It's like being pushed, sort of. And acting "decent", and polite, and kind, and considerate....it takes EFFORT, because our natural tendency is to struggle and fight. I think it's great you are holding out for guys who make that effort. Most will not.

I personally love doing a lot of things with women. And I no longer care if these activities lead to romance or not. But some men aren't going to feel that way. Men express love sexually. In particular, they really suck at courtship. And women LIKE courtship...how it gives them time to think, to evaluate a man's sincerity, how it takes the pressure of deciding to fuck RIGHT NOW off their shoulders. A lot of men aren't ever going to listen to women. It's hard to say exactly why.

In broad strokes, it's much like this:

Men would prefer sex that blossoms into love.
Women would prefer love that blossoms into sex.

And they sit across from each other-wondering what they are doing wrong.

Please understand, Marcie, that many of my observations are not my personal feelings, nor do my remarks constitute an endorsement of such behavior. You asked some questions-I'm trying to give you some answers. Not who's right, or who's wrong-I'm not fit to judge such things, but how things are.

I believe the differing approaches to relationships have their origin in simple biology. Sex is a much riskier proposition for women, because men do not get pregnant. Ever. Women (in our pre-civilized state) cannot afford to be indiscriminate. So guys tend to throw everything at a wall and see what sticks, while women try to make the wisest choice possible. Just because we have birth-control, and now out-live our best fertile years doesn't mean the animal wiring gets updated.

This thread is further complicated for me personally, because I see you post a lot, Marcie. I understand what you want-you want the whole enchilada: someone to satisfy your body, heart and mind. Most men are only going to be able to hit 2 out of 3, and we probably should do a better job of raising our sons in this country.

@Deveno thanks for explaining further. I (obviously) had my undies in a bundle this morning.

I’ve calmed down now, lol. I do think you’re over generalizing men and women though. I do think most of us have evolved somewhat from our caveman tendencies.

I’m 44, my kids are 20 and 18, I got myself sterilized 9 years ago because I’m DONE having kids. I did go through a slutty phase where I wanted to try different men, experiment with kinks, and just enjoy myself. So I completely get men wanting sex for sex’s sake.

I feel like you are saying that all/most men, regardless of where they are in life (20s, 30s, 40s, etc) only want to stick their dicks in as many women as possible. I certainly get that in their 20 but don’t men who are older and done having kids want more than that? Please????

And if you find someone you’re really sexually compatible with, is there no desire to continue exploring with her? I would imagine some women are horrible at sucking a guy off or sex in general. I totally get wanting to move on. Trust me, I’ve encountered enough men that can’t find my clit (or just don’t give a damn if I have an orgasm) and don’t want to take the time and effort to teach them either. Then again it takes less effort for men to achieve orgasm so maybe that’s just a difference between men and women then.

I guess my point is even if a guy is only looking for sex online, are there really that many guys out there that can’t get anymore creative than hi sexy?

Also, please tell me that some men do value women for more than strictly sex.

@Deveno Men would prefer sex that blossoms into love. Women would prefer love that blossoms into sex.

As for this statement I’m conflicted. I had a post about this several months ago. I’ve had male friends tell me over and over and over (I’m a slow learner) not to sleep with a guy on a first date. They say I’ll only be seen as someone to fuck once and not someone to actually consider dating. I get that all men are different but your statement leads me to believe that the guys I have had sex with on the first date should have wanted to see me again. Assuming I’m decent in bed?

@Marcie1974 Yes, of course many men having found a woman they are into, and who is into them, want to see how far they can take it. Loneliness is a human concern, over and above all sexual considerations, and....well, men aren't generally allowed to be emotionally open with other men, so often their lovers are the ONLY people they can express their true selves to. And whether they ever admit this or not, that is very valuable to men. Let me put it this way: if a man ever cries in front of you...he really, really trusts you.

As far as the caveman tendencies....well, PART of us has evolved. Our higher reasoning faculties, our linguistic abilities, and learned parts of our psychology. But the DNA hasn't changed that much for the last 50,000 years, and that brain stem can do a number on our loftier cerebral cortex.

If it's any consolation, I never expect sex on a first date. This may be old-fashioned of me, but I'd like to have sex with someone I like "more than just once." My reasons are practical-I don't expect I will know everything about a lover on the first go-what she likes, what she doesn't, and how we mesh. In my opinion, these sorts of things take time to learn.

A long time ago, a woman I was sleeping with told me we ought to wait. She said "the bonding would go deeper." At the time, I was like: "Ah, screw that." But she was right, and I view this now as one of the biggest mistakes I ever made.

I read somewhere that the chances of a response from a man writing a woman hover around 10%. If they are playing a numbers game...yeah, the creativity isn't going to be there, because if you are sending out 100 messages, laziness takes over. And I understand that you want them to try harder, because "hi sexy" conveys no useful information except perhaps that they will take a booty call.

But we can talk this to death, and it's not going to get better.

I know of at least one guy that values women for more than just sex. And he has, I don't know, maybe 4 women he converses with on very personal matters several times a week (each), not counting his sister. He's not dating anymore, because it got old spending a few hundred dollars to find out "they're just not feeling it."

I'm not judging you; if you want to have sex with someone right away, hey, it's your life. But I suspect you would be much happier in the long run giving the guys some rope

@Deveno I get what you’re saying but I also feel some of what you say contradicts what you’ve said earlier. Don’t get me wrong.....I did the same in my answers as well, lol.

Taking in that men are all different are from each other and all women are different, I suppose this conversation would have infinite ways of going depending upon who you were talking to.

Thank you very much for the explanations and insights!!

Great diatribe. Specially like the "it's the fucking main course" bit.

Tongue in cheek ? Boys will not understand your post

hello

@maturin1919 so, the same reason men think women want unsolicited dick pics.

@A2Jennifer maybe these dickheads want a Hustler labia spread photo in return ?....They objectify themselves clueless they would not like being centerfolds themselves hung up on a greasy mechanic or snow plow shop by aggressive women

How about hello, do you like “insert hobby”

Or, "Hello, your profile bio says you are into bla bla bla, and I enjoy that, too..."

@Marcie1974 . . ."insert hobby" yes.

@Marcie1974, @Deb57 . . . I was referring to a public forum and meeting a stranger. But that may work.

Or hello (name)... I'm Chris...i like your profile...i especially like that you are interested in (subject)... tell me more please...

@Falcone17east . . . that would sound stalky to a stranger in a public place. Don't ya think?

@Jacar how is that"stalky"...I receive messages like that and I much prefer those kind over the "Hey sexy" ones...shows they just might be interested in the actual woman attached to the pussy....

@Freespirit64 . . . In a public place a stranger says to you, "Hello, I read you profile. We have a lot in common."

How did they know who youare? How did they get access to your profile? Which one?

That would be stalky to me.

@Jacar I thought we were discussing internet contact, not face time...

You are correct, timing is everything. If my partner grabbed my butt I would not be offended. However if some random guy did I would. I know saying hi sexy isn't the same thing but yet it sort of is. It tells me you are only seeing me as someone for sex or to be looked at as sexy. I have a brief paragraph with a few of my hobbies, etc. that you someone can take a quick minute to review and comment on that. "Hey, I see you're into music, who's your favorite band?" is all it would take. When you figure the percentage of men on dating apps that are just looking for hookups, saying hey sexy to someone isn't telling me you are actually interested in getting to know me beyond physical. If that IS all you want, totally fine! But I'm looking for more than just sex, hence my ignoring those comments.

I am on Bumble and additionally I do occasionally initiate contact on other apps as well. Again, I just write a short sentence on something we have in common. If the guy has zero information on his "about me" section but I'm still interested, I'll just ask how his week is going or if he has plans for the weekend. I'm never offended if someone doesn't write me back. First of all, I don't write down or remember every guy I reach out to. I message them and if I don't hear back no big deal. I'd much rather have them ignore my message than say something like they don't find me attractive. Or I had one guy say he isn't into "big girls" but no offense. That hurts my feelings....yes I know I'm overly sensitive but if you aren't attracted to me just don't respond. I get that I'm not for everyone but you don't have to point out my flaws.

@Marcie1974 Not pointing out a flaw at all and really wasn't the intent. It isn't really a "flaw". It is a preference you have which is fine. If dating was easy we would all be in very happy fulfilling relationships but it isn't.
I am simply pointing out that anonymously saying someone is beautiful or sexy isn't necessarily intended to be demeaning and certainly in no way an "assault" which an grope would be. It could simply be they don't have the internet icebreaker skills none of us were born with. Hell I think I am pretty easy to get along with in person but I struggle finding anything to say sometimes to break the ice. Written words are very difficult for some people and I include myself among them...obviously
I just wanted to say that even though it should be obvious in a dating site if someone is contacting you they probably find you attractive, so saying something isn't exactly a straight to sex offering all the time.
Clearly I have never been a woman on a date with a man or trying to find one so I have little perspective...only that of a dude. That was all I was trying to say. I certainly did not intend for you to feel like I was attacking you.

@maxhyde oh no I didn't feel like you were attacking me at all. And I realize went off on a tangent there that wasn't directly related to your response.

I guess my feeling is that realistically probably 80% of guys that contact me (only speaking for myself) are only looking for something "casual" or just for a hookup. So when you figure that in....can you see how it would be annoying to get a message that just says hi sexy? I'm not super great at initiating contact either, but like I said, just asking someone how their day or week is going is pretty easy to say and doesn't really have the chance of coming off as having an agenda. Granted I suppose some people will get offended at anything.

A guy made a post on here today saying that he gets upset that women don't respond when he says hi (that's where my tangent with you went). If that's all a guy writes to me, I wonder if he has any conversation skills? Is he just clicking on every woman and writing hi without even looking at their profile?

I don't need flowery words or something super profound.....but yeah, I do expect more than just hi or hey sexy. Honestly, I think the day I made my original post I was frustrated by yet another guy just wanting sex. It gets to the point where I feel like my only value is my holes. If I feel that way I can't imagine how beautiful women must feel!

I'm trying to think if there is anything I can relate this to for a man's perspective. The only thing I'm coming up with is being constantly messaged and asked if you're generous. Maybe that's changed but my understand a few years ago that was code for generous with money....buying gifts and whatnot. Imagine only being valued by the dollar you make. Still not the same thing because it's not your body. I'm probably not explaining myself very well.

@Marcie1974 Sure. Sorry I mis-interpreted the reply. Anyway I will say this about it because it is funny to read in EVERY profile "No hookups or casual.". You know what makes it a hookup or casual? Neither person being very interested but interested enough. People that don't want hookups should not hookup. If you don't want casual, don't do casual. I am also not "interested" in hookups, however, if we hookup and she doesn't reply after I also don't lose too much sleep over it. Such is life but my intent is to find someone same as everyone else. I assume that is true for everyone and don't let a few silly people ruin it for me.
Anyway my point is dating kinda is about sex isn't it? It is the ONLY thing that separates my female friends and a "girlfriend" or potential SO. I am not getting married to have sex with someone. In fact in many ways the the gf always has alot of catch up to do to be at the same "friend" level. So it is sort of difficult to remove sex from dating in general. You aren't going out with people you don't think you will find attractive. I mean I know within seconds of meeting someone if I am going to want to kiss them or not whether it happens or not is another thing. If I don't it is a rather short date now. Plenty of ways to make friends out there that aren't considered dating like meetup groups etc.

I have maybe a funny story you read profiles (and this is why I hate dating too BTW) and the girl I was going to meet said she wanted 'old school' romance. Cool, I can try that even though I haven't done that since with high school with anyone I hadn't already gone way beyond a phone number with but what the hell. First thing is she wouldn't let me pick her up. OK fine I get the safety aspect...makes sense. When I brought a flower out of my jacket she was like...that is weird I am out of here. I was like OK old school is WTF exactly? LOL. The waitress thought it was awesome. I decided right there dating was out. Its a dumb game. Be clear and be aware of yourself. Now I will meet with people I find attractive and I feel no pressure at all. I know some have ghosted me because I wear a hat and go in pretty casual but you know what...I am not likely to be interested in their game anyway. I want a friend I ALSO want to kiss and see naked alot so playing some game I don't understand makes no sense to me. Romance is different for everyone and I am through tryong to guess what that is. Romance requires more knowledge and a deeper understanding of someone than a few paragraphs in a bio. I am a decent human and fun so eventually it'll figure itself out. Life has been much easier since that first/last embarrassing dating moment

@maxhyde yeah I get what you mean about people who put no casual or hookups. For me, I’ve got a couple friends I can go to if I need some physical action. I don’t want to go out on one date, have sex, and never see the guy again. I had my slutty phase where I was out and experimenting. Now I’d like to find one person to date and hopefully eventually turn into a relationship. With actual feelings! Lol

@Marcie1974 Yeah and I totally get that is way more of an issue for you than me. I am less likely to run into a gal using me for sex than a woman is with a man. Just think it is a safe assumption if you are going out on a date that the other is potentially interested in sex at some point or why even go?

Yeah, I tend to get sucked into that crap hoping to tactfully educate people. Obviously I haven’t learned from experience yet

@Marcie1974 lol I get it

hello

helo

@CoastRiderBill Ehhh...I will give them a sentence or two to get things going, but if the text conversation is boring or bland, I lose interest quick. I know there are women that have had bad, and even scary, interactions with people online, so I try to keep my judgements in check. Maybe they are just shy, bad communicators online, bad experience with a stalker, etc. I agree though...I will cut some slack, but if it looks like I have to coddle their fragile emotions before even meeting on a first date...I'm out. We all have baggage, but at this point in the interaction I'm not willing to carry her's for her.

I get that men deal with stupid crap in dating sites as well. I wasn’t trying to downplay that, I was responding to someone else’s post and the derogatory comments a few men made.

If a guy has very little or no info on his profile, I’ll send him almost exactly the same message you stated.

I think what is so frustrating for women (again, I understand men have their things they have to deal with), is being seen as just body parts by some men.

@daylily How did I blame the vagina? I said the vagina doesn't automatically make someone special...and yes, I have dated and been told first hand stories about women who seem to think this. So you are saying that I am wrong that there are women who go on first dates and think they should be pandered to like a princess, just b/c they are a woman? That's odd...b/c I know guys that think they are superior b/c they have a penis, and in fact, see the same comments from women on here about men in general (not just a sub-group of grade A a-holes).

@Marcie1974 Sure...I absolutely get that...and realize that for many women, that may be the majority of online interactions. I'm not saying I don't stereotype women based on their profile or pics, I am just stating that one or two initial sentences shouldn't be a deal breaker. None of us should allow ourselves to get that jaded, myself included, which is why I take a break when I start to slide towards the dark side. I know you only get one chance to make a first impression, so it's important to try and do well. But dating sucks exponentially as you get older, and we should try and cut each other some slack. It's suppose to be somewhat fun and exciting after all...

'Hi Jayne (that's me btw), I am interested in your bio, especially what about paleo-anthropology interests you the most and how has this informed your agnostic views?'

Oh my gosh I’m so tempted to change my name!! Lol

@Marcie1974 you need to Miracle

hello

I’ll quit whining when 1) women don’t have to fear sexual assault when they are alone in public or 2) men are sexually assaulted as often as women.....equal rights you know

@Marcie1974 ::: stats from 2013: "Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men. "

[slate.com]

@Jacar interesting article. I’d be interested to see the statistical change for assault against women without actual penetration.

I’m curious about when a man reports abuse, if women, police, judges, lawyers, etc. ask him what he was wearing, if he’d been drinking and how much or why he was drinking, why was he at that particular location, etc.

But I get it....poor men are the victims

@Marcie1974 . . .as with women, most men do not report. one of the reasons is because they are embarrassed. And, yes, they get shit from the men. We don't know much about this because there is no coverage about it, and no movies about. So it is thought to not be an issue.

"But I get it....poor men are the victims" I assume you are being satirical. So, good one.

Good point!

hello

My current SO first messaged me with only the intent to be friends. We got to really know and value one another before we got involved and it's a much better way to start a relationship imo. We honestly like one another and enjoy time together and it's the most positive relationship I've had.
My takeaway here is that getting to know someone well before sex comes into play makes for a happier relationship.

Great question! I don’t remember verbatim but just something referencing either books/reading or music.

I assume that some women don’t actually write anything? Or at least I know a lot of men don’t. It’s difficult to write a first message then, especially if their pictures don’t make it obvious what their interests are. On the flip side, I’ve seen profiles that are a dozen long paragraphs. I don’t mean to sound overly picky but seriously, it’s not difficult to list a couple hobbies and maybe say what you’re looking for.

But you have a beard...so you get extra points!

Umm you definitely aren’t hopeless. What you said is spot on! I don’t expect flowery poetry on a first message. But it’s not difficult to say: I see you like music, I too like music.

My panties instantly drop eye roll

@Marcie1974 yeah, me too.......

@Marcie1974 . . . I'd like to see that trick.

exactly!

Ive heard some women do not like a terse approach and require more just to get a response.

On the flip side; Its tough for us because its a numbers game. Most messages go without response or even being read.

Im certain that there is a middle ground.

@Marcie1974 . . .and he spent most of his time alone.

Boys are obsessed with penis erections and prEying for vagina time. ....real MEN want private space to communicate. ....sorry there are so few of us men and so many boys wanting to penetrate

@GreenAtheist And men are visual. The problem is that many men do not realize or maybe remember that women are not. A man that can pique my interest is one that presents challenging ideas and great conversation. Engage the mind and the body follows in a hurry.

@Larimar I must be a woman trapped in a manly body. ...I always read the Playboy articles the centerfolds stolen or sold by my brothers

You are my new hero!!

I need to learn that some people are not interested in learning basic respect (especially from a woman) and to just move on.

@Marcie1974 proud of you searching for complete understanding. ...shows true leadership serving others. ...you are already wise....you're not needy instead you're a giver not taking

One of the best compliments a guy gave me was that he thought I was really smart. Part of it was the look on his face when he said it. Definitely swoon-worthy

I tried to cast you in my movie remake A BEAUTIFUL MIND with other reparte'

yes, and I don't mean to ignore what you men must deal with....but I only know the female side of it.

@Marcie1974 . . . yeah. But you are not stoopid, ignorant, nor incompetent. So, you cannot speak for all those who are.

I am on a dating site. I don't get that many hits either. One a week maybe two if I'm lucky.

What is your sister's screen name again?

Thank you!!! ❤️❤️❤️

Well said

I think you have the right idea. It's better than "hi baby, you are so sexy, I want to hold you tight." lol

It's just my opinion but a simple hello is not enough to get anyone to respond. A woman needs to get her curiosity in you tweaked a little. Maybe point out some common interests or say something interesting about yourself. A simple hello is not much to respond to.

Sometimes they can’t even spell hay bby or sxy either lol