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LETS DISCUSS GENDER IDENTITY -

In the beginning, Nature created MALE and FEMALE and it was good. Over time, however, this proved to be too limiting because there were people who were born one gender but identified more closely as the other and so TRANSGENDER was added.

But humans are a complex species and there were some who were born one gender but only identified as that gender some days and as the other gender other days. To account for this, GENDERFLUID was created

Then there is NON-BINARY which applies to either gender who doesn't feel exclusively to be that gender or the other but a mix of both. I'm not sure how this differs from GENDERFLUID but since it has its own designation, I assume it does in some way.

So the gender landscape has certainly expanded but the one I still don't get is OTHER. A number of people here identify as OTHER but what is that and how does it differ from all the previous identities? I've looked for the definition online but can't find it so I'll just ask here.

Remember, there are no stupid questions which is bullshit because, of course there are but this isn't one of them.

Sgt_Spanky 7 Dec 5

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18 comments

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1

How about if you just try MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS?!

Somebody forgot to take her meds again.

@Sgt_Spanky because I am the one nattering on ad infinitum about something that affects nobody but those involved....uh huh.....

@AnneWimsey Whatever your dysfunction is Anne, you have my pity. Now, please take your anti-psychotics, have a nice lie down and never lose hope for a cure.

@Sgt_Spanky i love it when you call someone on their bias/monomania/prurient interests, etc. and they suggest You need drugs....yuppers!

@Sgt_Spanky What the hell, Dude? Don't try to mental health shame someone because they call you out.

@ejbman thank you for your support! Such a cheap copout, ain't it?

0

In other words, there will always be someone Fucking Things Up... For No Good Reason but will tell us... we are the one confusing things since they are the Truth... Fuck Their truth!!!!

0

I think Other are the confused ones, they have been reading far too much.

Or maybe they just don't find the definitions that are out there, work for them? Just a thought.

@OwlInASack"work for them" how? By defining who they themselves are, or to assist them in pigeonholing others?
Maybe we should all just Mind Our Own Business?

@AnneWimsey well I suppose I mean that if someone defines themselves as other that suggests to me that none of the alternatives work for that individual.

@OwlInASack Could be.

@OwlInASack Or they want to be special.

@Jolanta, @OwlInASack and my/your business because....?

@AnneWimsey OK - have to wade in a bit here: everything I've said is effectively none of my business, its theirs and they get to decide.

I'm really struggling to understand how you think I have ever said that what terms they use for themselves are something I get to decide on or are my business other than to respect their decision.

Am I missing something here?

@Jolanta But I could just not make that kind of judgement, right? As I don't know (though clearly this is a serious issue: as I am prone to pointing out - lots of people kill themselves over this so its not trivial) I will go with the best and least abusive answer I can come up, which is most likely to be true. It also happens to coincide what the individuals themselves tend to say, so I understand.

Listening to them and believing them is probably reasonable.

@OwlInASack Do people actually kill themselves because of Other or do they kill themselves because they want to be gay and are afraid of coming out? I am not use that we really know.

1

My answer to you is a question: How does it affect you? Why do you care how others "designate" themselves? It is meant to serve them, THEIR identity, not your need to categorize or identify.

Did I say it affected me? Gender identities are an actual thing and they're getting progressively more complicated as new ones are identified and added to the growing list. I'm looking to keep them all straight and understand what the differences are. Now I have a question; why does the very topic trigger so many people, including yourself?

@Sgt_Spanky because the right has weaponized this particular topic to antagonize and divide people. Usually the folks asking about this are a little stirred up about it or trying to stir people up. If you are genuinely curious, then I deflect to all those with a non "standard" gender since I am merely male and don't always understand where others are coming from EXCEPT that I know I will only know by talking to them. If that is where you are heading - seeking understanding - I applaud you, sir. But we see far too many online, including here, who seek to denigrate and disparage.

@Seeker3CO Thank you.

1

Gender exists on a continuum and isn't categorical, despite the attempts by culture to slot it into pigeonholes. We use gender names as heuristics or shortcuts to help other people identify us, but that's just a social construct, and therefore subject to all the variability that culture has to offer. Also, a lot of what gender appears to be from the outside is a series of role performances that are learned behaviors based on culture, but that varies by culture, so we know it also has no biological basis.

Complicating matters are biological factors, which include body morphology, and the newly identified quality of brain sex, which need not match body morphology. Body morphology isn't binary either, by the way, and exists on a continuum. I'm not even just thinking about intersex people (those with two types of genitals, for instance). Consider the case of Brittney Griner, the lesbian basketball player who has the same chromosomes as any other cisgendered female, but everyone thinks she is transgendered because her features appear more masculine to some and she is lesbian.

The main thing I would say about gender is that it really is nobody's business except the individual, and whomever they choose to share with, regarding their body morphology and experience. Trying to slot others into categories that make YOU comfortable is both selfish and rude. If you have a legitimate need to know, then you can always use interpersonal skills to sensitively ask. But be sure you have a legitimate need to know.

1

You can use "other" when you feel it's none of anyone's business.

Fair enough.

2

People can refer to themselves in what ever manner they wish. Just give me a clear heads up on how to refer to you, so I can address you properly.

2

Physically, we are what we are. Surgery can alter that to some extent. But if a person wants to be different from everyone else, that's his/her/its choice. If a person wants to be called "other," I have no problem with that. If a person wants to make up a nonsense word for for his/her/its gender -- like Pidobedot -- I have no problem with that. Let people call themselves whatever they like. I don't have to understand it, but I would allow them the liberty to live their lives as they please (within the law of the land, of course).

0

I have heard the brain chemistry and brain activity argument and it is weak. Why? Meditation and prayer stimulates portions of the brain, and releases chemical for mind altering. If all that is required is brain stimulation to shape society, then one must accept religion as absolute truth. Which is ridiculous. Dont be a double standard.

Shebangle. kebunk, legdegoodhoope, wunkle ming blubrle, Shleble dong wook fest.

I speak your 'logic' too,

0

It does nothing to you to just let someone be what they want to be.

I'm fine with trans and genderqueer and nonbinary and that stuff. Tell me your pronoun and I'll use it. It doesnt hurt me to just call you what you want to be called.

It's the trans species people that I cannot really get behind...

You mean the "Otherkin" the people who say "I was born human but I'm really a horse." That shit is just out there.

It's so nice to read posts by people who have a few ounces of empathy. I thank you. Please keep it up. The utter fuckwittery here recently on this subject is killing me.

0

Some of you have raised some legitimate hypotheticals but I'm questioning the need to have an alternate identity for every possible gender permutation. Biologically there are only two, emotionally, there can be any number. Since humans are equal parts of each, who knows how many identities there could ultimately be?

Humans have an endless capacity to complicate everything they get their hands on and I can foresee gender identity falling into this trap with dozens of variations over time. Is this really necessary or can it be simplified?

@PalacinkyPDX Gender is the sexual division of a species which is exactly what we're discussing.

@Sgt_Spanky gen·der
/ˈjendər/Submit
noun

  1. the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones). (2. was a grammatical definition, not relevant here.)

note that "male or female" can apply to one person if that person is gender fluid. note, too, the definitions's very important parenthetical distinction. even so, this definition is a bit outdated as it doesn't take into account the emotional aspect even as it takes into account the social and cultural aspects. it needs to be updated, i think, but it still correctly separates gender identity from biology.

g

@genessa This definition confirms what I said; gender is the sexual division of a species. Whether that division is based on physical or emotional criteria is superfluous.

@Sgt_Spanky okay if you choose to interpret it that way. it seems to me it does not say that at all. and YOU did not say that: you did not stop at the word species, and what you added next is with what i disagree.

g

@genessa Whatever.

@Sgt_Spanky i have a friend who is transgendered. she didn't choose to be transgendered. in fact she didn't choose anything. her parents did. she was born with genitalia from BOTH sexas. her parents decided she was a boy and had surgeons make that happen shortly after my friend's birth. much later, she found out that she'd had a twin. i don't know what happened to the twin but it didn't get born and it was likely subsumed by her, my friend. there is a word for that, as it does sometimes happen, but i forget the word and am too tired to look it up; my eyes are hurting me. at any rate, it is possible her twin was female and was subsumed, and that is why my friend was born hermaphroditic. her parents made a choice for her but the choice doesn't match who she feels she is. she spent her whole adult life as a man, married, had kids, and finally could no longer lie to herself; inside, she knew she was female. we have lost touch; i don't know if she ever got her surgery. i hope she got whatever she needed to feel like herself. but how she was born... she was born BOTH.

g

1

I know we all are kind of under the impression that we must have an opinion for everything.....believe it or not, there are exceptions too.

0

I'll be honest, I just don't fucking care about anyone's gender except mine and my significant other.

Personally I think that a person's gender is not optional, nobody gets to only choose. You can surgically change your gender and IMO it's about the same as dying your hair. You're now a blonde, you weren't born a blonde but you are now. For the people with brown hair telling me they're blonde, sorry no. If you want me to refer to you as a female while you have male genitalia, okay sure. If you want me to take a lie detector test and say you're a female while you have male genitalia, I'm gonna fail.

However once again, I don't really care what you want to call yourself and I'll call you whatever you'd like. Your genitals are not my business or my concern.

@PalacinkyPDX That seemed needlessly combative.

@PalacinkyPDX I'm trying to see where I asked you to care or if you were the OP and I'm just not finding it keyboard warrior.

@PalacinkyPDX So what did I say that was offensive? I'm happy to address that directly instead of trading back and forth who was the first "snide troll". My aim isn't to offend you, but it's also not to coddle your feelings. I'm not concerned that you replied negatively to what I said, it happens pretty often and I'm willing to discuss it.

Attempting to dismiss me as a troll because you didn't agree with my reply is kind of pathetic to be honest. In addition, your shot at my fake profile photo is irrelevant to the context of the discussion, get upset and you say stupid things as so far you're correct, what you've replied is definitely not worth the time so let me know if you want a discussion or just to feel witty.

@PalacinkyPDX I gave you the truth and didn't worry about offending someone. I legitimately believe that there is far too much concern regarding other people's gender and I think there are others out there who feel the same. What's in someone's pants really isn't my concern and I believe more people should share that same philosophy because it's nobody's fucking business. I'm not looking for your or anyone else's validation here and that doesn't mean I'm uncompromising regardless of your psych 101 class. I feel that if more people were blunt and honest that we'd have a better world, but then you'd be offended.

Now the fact that you didn't like my response doesn't make it snarky, condescending, or dismissive. Even the OP thought you were over the top. It does make you clearly unable to discuss topics with anyone where you don't agree entirely and therefore incapable of real intellectual growth. I think this is common among too many people as they put far too much value on their feelings as if they're the most important aspect of a discussion. I'm not really sorry that I don't meet your standards to have a discussion with on a topic that you clearly have strong feelings for, I honestly believe you have nothing useful to offer other than spite and angst, and that means you don't meet mine either.

Feel free to be superior somewhere else, block away.

1

I don't care what you call yourself, as long as you don't bother me with it. A human is a human and that's good enough for me.

0

My take is that you have to think of the definition of gender as being on a spectrum. While some designations are given, as you point out, there are many places on the spectrum still to be occupied. Hence, "other."

1

Nature also created hermaphrodites.

@PalacinkyPDX . A had no idea it was considered offensive. Also, I thought the term was derived from the ancient Greek God, Hermaphrodite.

@PalacinkyPDX Hermaphrodites do appear in nature...it is a biological term...I learned it in college biology...I understand that the term for humans is as you previously schooled us on, but it is found in nature and is a valid term to describe a biologic occurrence..and yes, the term is a combination of two Greek gods, Hermes, the messenger, and Aphrodite, the goddess of love...please link where they are mythical beings in Greek mythology...I was not able to find that "fact."

@PalacinkyPDX What about the famous case taken on by the Southern Poverty Law in 2013 regarding the child who was born with ovatestes (hermaphodism, to use the old term)?

@PalacinkyPDX Did M.C. have that? According to the court documents, the issue was the presence of both external and internal genitalia and the decision the surgeon made to pick one based on his own belief that it was easier to make a female...The external genitalia was removed and reconstructed while the internal ones were left and additional hormones were used to support the female organs. I have been using the case to support that how people identify can be scientifically based. The doctor picked the wrong sex for this person and to not allow him to be what he identifies as is so wrong.

You are a wealth of information that I find fascinating...be patient with those of us who have not picked this battle (there are so many), but are trying to support all selections, even other.

@PalacinkyPDX I was going to ask you if you had a book or article I could read...thank you ... I support the SPL and was fascinated by this case...appalled, actually...

Does that include circumcision as well? Just curious...I am following a case of female genital mutilation in Michigan...

@PalacinkyPDX We have to pick our battles...our passions...thank you for your enlightened and respectful conversation..your passion is inspiring....I am on line now ordering the book to better educate myself...

@PalacinkyPDX , this has been educational. Thank you!

1

How about both male and female...hemaphrodite? Is that an other?

What if at birth a doctor needed to fix a genital deformity and your physical doesn't match your emotional/mental? What is that? Other?

I use other for NOYB...🙂

@PalacinkyPDX Ah, I didn't know that so I guess that means INTERSEX is also a category.

@PalacinkyPDX Thank you...not being that knowledgeable in all of the newer terminology, I just used the word I was familiar with from my old medical books. Good to know there are people that keep up with it all to help the rest of us...

5

in the beginning there were two genders? i'm sorry, but which beginning, and how do you figure this is true? because no one talked about it? well, except many native american tribes, whose members have acknowledged more than two genders for longer than the united states has been a country.

as for "other" on this site, i believe that is a polite way to say "none of anyone's business." if one is dating, one probably wants to share that information, but for the community, there is no earthly reason why it is necessary to say what gender one is, and a LOT of reasons to withhold that information. it does not necessarily reflect a new gender of which we have not previously heard.

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very true. and many tribes have 10 or more "genders" I don't see the need to identify every possible combination of genders, physical attributes, or things. nature always produces every combination of possibilities. It's humans who are in denial and forcing people to fit into a set number of labels.

@AmmaRE007 there are probably cases in which it would be handy to have a name for a particular gender permutation, especially as people do tend to ask (curious folk, we!) but in MOST cases (such as a discussion of your favorite music or politics or how your cat reacts to the new toy) the poster's gender is irrelevant. i can't blame people for marking "other."

g

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