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Transgender has always confused me. Could never really understand it beyond thinking it was a gay person in denial. Please educate me if I have it wrong.

Nardi 7 Jan 31

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10

You know what. It doesnt matter if you "get it" .. are they in anyway harming you? Let people be who they want to be .
If you are actually serious about wanting to understand ..
Go. Talk. To. One. Have a conversation.. take him/her out for a coffee.
But you wont.. why? Cause your scared people will judge you. Or even worse . Your scared you might even understand parts of it, and you don't wanna let that reality out..
Doesnt matter. Really all you have to do is just let people be themselves..

P.s. this post is not aimed directly at just you.

I have to admit theres some truths in what you say. I will find one and try to talk to understand. Just hope I find one thats willing to talk candidly to me.

@Nardi do you know any gay or lesbian people? They can set you up. Just be honest about why .

@hippydog Yes I do I will check with them this weekend

This post needs a big fat gold star..you are top notch Mr. Hippydog

9

If a bunch of scientists have to scramble to get a bunch of sea turtles into air conditioning so they won't all turn out to be female that should be a little bit of a clue to see how very fragile everything is and runs on a spectrum. There ARE animals in nature that can switch their genders and even "fake" being the opposite gender to increase their odds of mating.

Also including something I saved to research further for later.

7

My understanding is, they have a strong feeling of being in the wrong body....must be dreadful in & of itself, never mind the "kind" world we live in.

hi anne -- not trying to attack you here but i'm going to be direct, okay? it's not a "strong feeling." it's a fact. they are, to all intents and purposes, in a body that displays the wrong genitals and physical characteristics for their true gender, gender being different from sex. it is not necessarily dreadful "in & of itself" -- let me say more accurately not necessary for it to be dreadful, but society MAKES it dreadful -- since there are ways to cope with it or deal with it (hormones, surgery, even just people treating one according to one's gender instead of according to how one's body looks). some people think gender dysmorphia and gender dysphoria are part and parcel of being trans, but in fact they are part and parcel of other people's persecution of trans people. they are not part of being trans and being trans is not a mental illness or just a strong feeling; it's not like someone who think's he's napoleon.

g

@genessa ummmmm, I think looking down and seeing a penis when I Needed a vagina, or vs,. would be pretty damn horrifying "in and of itself"......."somebody who thinks s/he is Napolean" would not be a good analogy at all! Plus they are not going, in many or even Most cases, to be able to get hormones or surgery until they are adults (or get rich!) And of course neither surgery nor hormones is an easy quick fix!
So they are truly trapped, and as we all know, children/adolescents long to be "in", & "accepted", and cope poorly when they are not, so they get a double whammy in their formative years. I did not fit in in all my school years because I was a glasses-weariing "smart" kid, my name was "Univac" (an early computer) and just that ostracism was Painful as hell....I cannot imagine what these kids go thru!

@AnneWimsey you have a point and i didn't mean to imply it would be easy. it's just that so many people (well, at least the ones familiar with the terms) confuse being trans with the dysmorphia that many of them have, and it's not a given that they have it. i guess i don't know how to explain it as well as i thought i did lol. it's just that i know that some trans kids are happy being who they are and only later think about the genitalia in particular. some never do want or get the surgery, just really want to be treated as the gender they know they are. so i guess i was just trying to draw that distinction, not by any means say it was an easy thing for anyone to cope with.

g

6

I have a Trans Nephew and a Friend who is Trans - what would you like to know? I am what we call an "Ally" - that's someone who is willing to educate and steps up to defend folks who are LGBTQ.

I'm usually hard to offend because I think the more that people can understand? The more likely they are to NOT live in fear about the topics having to do with LGBTQ folks.

I think Transgendered people scare folks because everyone goes "OMG SURGERY!" - but you have to realize how much they feel they are in the WRONG BODY.
Imagine looking downwards and everything you see when you go to pee is wrong?

You have a period when you shouldn't? Or erections when you should have a period? - What would that do to you?

My niece - who was my 'nephew' for 35 years (to the best of my knowledge at the time) -
became progressively more and more depressed, unhappy and angry because she never felt she was in the right body. Or living her real life.

It was really conflicting to be this guy when she felt like a woman.

So when she finally came out to the family I had no problem being on her side - it finally made sense to me.

Now at this point whether male-to-female or female-to-male, a trans person doesn't even have to chose hormones. They can simply chose new pronouns and to live as their gender of choice.
They usually attempt to re pitch their voice and change mannerisms.
Clothing changes too and hairstyles.

However my niece? She is so much happier because when she went on female hormones and male hormone blockers? She started to grow breasts.
She lost some of the male hair on her body (facial hair) - and some of the hair on her arms and legs decreased as well. Testes shrink as well.

And both my niece and my friend are male-to-female trangendered women, and noth of them are lesbian, which means they are attracted to other women, so if they weren't transgendered, they'd have been a straight cisgendered males.

Now whether a trans person chooses to have gender reassignment surgery is no one's business but their own and of course whoever they partner with sexually.

It's considered the height of rudeness to ask that question.

I get to ask some crazy things because I'm an Auntie and friend - so if you have more questions I can answer them.

thanks for taking the time to reply. I do have a question. Do they wish to be desirable as women by men? I might have more but thats it for now thanks.

@Nardi Speaking as the friend mentioned in @RavenCT's post, no, I do not wish to be any more attractive to men than any other lesbian. I do, however want other lesbians to find me attractive, and straight and bisexual women too, but that's more of a pipe dream, lol. As for men finding me attractive, that's just an unfortunate side effect, as I am flattered, but wholly uninterested.

@Nardi No (they don't want to be desired by men) - she and my niece are both lesbians - that doesn't mean all trans folks are gay. Some are straight.

So just like everyone else - they can be anything in the LGBTQ universe.

So yes some could want to be desired by men - but not all.

@Ashley6245 Thank you!

@Ashley6245 Yes, we most certainly are! She is a great person and a great friend!

@Kafirah Back atcha! ❤

6

If you're really interested in finding out if you have it wrong (which you do), you could educate yourself. It's clear you have internet access.
Shouldn't be too hard to check a few reputable medical and psychological
sites and get accurate information.

5

My daughter has been living with a transgender female for over two years. Luckily I can ask both of them questions, and some of the questions have been really stupid (my words, not theirs).

Do I understand it? Not all the time. Do I care? Nope.

4

This APA Article explains the Psychology of Stigma and why the classification changed entirely: [apa.org]

Is also explains why Acceptance is such a big deal.

This out of all the articles might best summarize what you need to know to be a better Ally.
You are hurting people through lack of knowledge if you don't educate yourselves.

So why not read a little? There is no more to be afraid of here - than there is for any of your friends who are gay or lesbian. No one wants you to change.

They just don't want you to be all judgmental and nasty. And cracking jokes at their expense - and pointing in public. (sigh).

Ask me how much more I loved the lady at the store who called us "Ladies" over the guy who called her "Sir" when she was wearing full makeup and a skirt?
How stupid do you have to be? How ignorant.

Source:
4

Transgenderism is NOT categorized as a Mental Disorder any longer:

I thought we Agnostics/Atheists actually read Science journals etc.?

But I was explaining that being Transgendered wasn't the same as being a Transvestite to a bunch of college graduates in 1988 - so maybe we've come a little bit further than we were? One hopes.

[huffingtonpost.com]

HuffPost is a science journal now? What science journal can we read about this in to get full context? HuffPost just isn't my cup of tea.

@jorj [health24.com]

[apa.org] (Answers to questions on Transgenderism)
[apa.org] (Transgenderism)

The HuffPost linked to information about the World Health Organizaton - I've screenshot this from the attached health24 article.

(Edit to show what links go to).

[nytimes.com]

W.H.O. Weighs Dropping Transgender Identity From List of Mental Disorders

By Pam Belluck

July 26, 2016

The World Health Organization is moving toward declassifying transgender identity as a mental disorder in its global list of medical conditions, with a new study lending additional support to a proposal that would delete the decades-old designation.

The change, which has so far been approved by each committee that has considered it, is under review for the next edition of the W.H.O. codebook, which classifies diseases and influences the treatment of patients worldwide.

“The intention is to reduce barriers to care,” said Geoffrey Reed, a psychologist who is coordinating the mental health and behavior disorders section in the upcoming edition of the codebook, called the International Classification of Diseases, or I.C.D.

Dr. Reed, a professor at the National Autonomous University of Mexico and an author of the new study, said the proposal to remove transgender from the mental disorder category was “not getting opposition from W.H.O.,” suggesting that it appears likely to be included in the new edition. The revised volume would be the first in more than 25 years, and is scheduled to be approved in May 2018.

Removing the mental health label from transgender identity would be a powerful signifier of acceptance, advocates and mental health professionals say.

“It’s sending a very strong message that the rest of the world is no longer considering it a mental disorder,” said Dr. Michael First, a professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and the chief technical consultant to the new edition of the codebook, which is known by its initials and the edition number I.C.D.-11. “One of the benefits of moving it out of the mental disorder section is trying to reduce stigma.”

Other parts of the proposed change are stirring debate, however. The proposal would not take transgender out of the codebook altogether, but would move it into a newly created category: “Conditions related to sexual health.”

Many, but not all, advocates favor the idea of keeping transgender in the codebook in some form because the designations are widely used for billing and insurance coverage of medical services and for conducting research on diseases and treatments. But where should it go?

“I think there is a bit of a problem with the idea of putting it in a chapter on sexual health because it has nothing to do with sex,” said Dr. Griet De Cuypere, a psychiatrist at the Center of Sexology and Gender at University Hospital in Ghent, Belgium, and a board member of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. “If it’s possible to have it more separately, it would be better.”

Others have concerns about a proposal to change the name from “transsexualism” to “gender incongruence,” a name chosen to try to express “a discrepancy between a person’s experienced gender identity and their body,” said Dr. Reed, who was part of the working group that recommended the changes to W.H.O.

One problem is that “incongruence” resonates differently in different languages. “In English it sounds kind of neutral — my association is with geometry,” Dr. Reed said. “But in Spanish it sounds very bad, it sounds kind of psychotic.”

So, in Spanish, the proposal is “gender discordance,” which, he said, “in English sounds really bad.”

Language differences are only part of the issue. “The terminology is difficult because nobody likes anything,” Dr. Reed said. “People have made suggestions that have been all over the map. One of the people at one of the meetings said we could call this happy unicorns dancing by the edge of the stream and there’d be an objection to it.”

The issue is reminiscent of the change in the way homosexuality was treated in the American bible of psychiatric diagnoses, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, known as the D.S.M. In 1973, the book, published by the American Psychiatric Association, changed the diagnosis of “homosexuality” to “sexual orientation disturbance,” and later to “ego-dystonic homosexuality” before dropping it altogether in 1987.

Transgender identity has changed in the D.S.M. too, classified under “sexual deviations” in 1968, “psychosexual disorders” in 1980 and “sexual and gender identity disorders” in 1994. In the fifth and most recent edition, D.S.M.-5 in 2013, the designation was changed to “gender dysphoria,” and was defined to apply to only those transgender people who are experiencing distress or dysfunction, said Dr. Jack Drescher, a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst at New York Medical College, who serves on the W.H.O. working group and served on a similar working group for the D.S.M.-5.

Dr. Drescher said he supported removing the diagnosis from the D.S.M. entirely, but he noted that the I.C.D. was different because it has categories for every disease and condition, not just psychiatric ones, and retaining some code for transgender identity might be the only way for some to receive medical care. Inmates, including Chelsea Manning, have received access to hormone treatments partly based on the fact that transgender identity belongs to a medical category, Dr. Drescher said.

Dr. First said he once received a call from the Internal Revenue Service asking him, as an expert, to support the agency’s intention to challenge a tax deduction that a transgender woman claimed for gender reassignment surgery. He declined, and said cases like that would be more likely without a diagnostic category.

Karl Surkan, a professor of women’s studies at M.I.T. and Temple University, who is transitioning from female to male, agreed. He said some trans people “say homosexuality was declassified, so now this is part of our civil rights movement, without understanding that it’s wildly different.”

Mr. Surkan said gays, lesbians and bisexuals were “not sort of reliant on medical treatment in the same way that the transgender population often is. You need a code to get an insurance company to pay for something.”

In a study published Tuesday in Lancet Psychiatry, Dr. Reed and co-authors interviewed 250 patients at a clinic that provides transgender health services in Mexico City. They found that while most had felt distress related to their gender identity during adolescence, almost a fifth of them had not. And among those who felt distress or experienced dysfunction at work, home or school, most was attributed to how they were treated — being rejected or violently attacked — rather than to their gender identity itself, the authors reported.

Many had physical health problems, likely a result of living on the margins of society, because their lives followed a “slope leading from stigma to sickness,” said Dr. De Cuypere, who is the co-writer of a commentary about the study.

Similar studies are being conducted in Brazil, India, Lebanon, South Africa and France.

“I would expect to see this kind of stigmatization and violence in all the other countries,” said Dr. Reed, although he said that in France, the researchers received a slightly more laissez-faire reception.

“In France, they said, ‘Just leave us alone, we don’t need your stinking classification,’ ” Dr. Reed said. “But they live in a society where access to health care is conceptualized as a right.”
A version of this article appears in print on July 27, 2016, on Page A9 of the New York edition with the headline: W.H.O. Moves to End a Transgender Stigma.

4

The interactions to this posting give me hope for humanity...just sayin. ♥️?

4

It is confusing. But imagine if you completely feel like you should be the opposite sex but you have the wrong body. Gay should be more difficult to understand because you are OK looking like the opposite sex but you are just attracted to the same sex. Then imagine that there are people of nearly every single persuasion in between these and completely straight.

Yup..

2

@jondspen This entire thread has fact with my educated opinion and some direct sources. Remember I worked with at risk populations. Here's a reference guide to what was posted from actual publications.

APA article on Stigma [apa.org]

NY Times Article about the World Health Organization recategorization. You keep saying it's Mental Illness - that doesn't make it so. The experts say it's not: [nytimes.com]

APA answers on Transgenderism [apa.org]

APA Transgenderism [apa.org]

The DSM still has Dsymorphia as a diagnosis - not Transgender.

Someone who is transgender undergoes therapy prior to gender reassignment so if there is Dysmorphia present as a dx it is caught and treated.
Even with Dysmorphia dx'd it does not exclude a dx of Transgender.

Others cited good resources here.

The science is saying it's real and not dismissing people.

2

trans people are not, by virtue of being trans, gay. some trans people ARE gay, just as some nontrans people are gay, and most are not, just as most nontrans people are not. many other people have responded here with good resources and good explanations, so i don't feel the need to do that myself, but i didn't see anyone answer that portion of your post so i thought i would jump in and do that. i will iterate a couple of important points, which are 1. transgenderedness is not a mental illness, 2. sex, sexual orientation and gender and three different things, and 3. trans people are not just people who like to dress up as the "opposite" sex. read on.

g

2

You're conflating gender identity with sexual orientation.

Perhaps you can enlighten us regarding the difference between the two.

@Bobby9 Sexual orientation is who you want to go to bed with, gender identity is who you want to go to bed as.

@maturin1919 I'd say that is a partial description at best.

@Bobby9 Well what you'd say doesn't much faze me. It's succinct and touches the heart of the matter. Was also given to me by a transgendered individual for just this purpose, so I'm good with it.

@maturin1919 Nothing fazes you , but that doesn't make you correct.

@Bobby9 Nor does it make me incorrect.

@maturin1919 But is helps

2

Have you tried talking to one?

No and that is the obvious thing to do. I feel stupid now :/

@Nardi I think you are being too hard on yourself. You are miles ahead of most people because it appears that you are open minded and willing enough to at least try and understand. IMO

2

Transgender does not necessarily mean gay. It means you identify as the other gender, think you were born in the wrong sexual body. Gay is being attracted to the same sex.
In Thailand I know people who are partnered with lady boys, tits but tackle intact, but they are not gay. And their partners are totally feminine in everyday life. They do live as women and it accepted there.
It is confusing but I just think I don't need others opinion on my relationship, so I won't judge theirs.

You have it right. A trans person can be gay straight or anything else. Depends on who they want to date.

2

A simple way of thinking about it is that the person has a brain/identity opposite to that of their body. For example, a man's body with a female brain or vice versa. It was described by a trans woman as being a female stuck in a male body.

1

I've read about it, it is difficult to understand.

1

I’m not transgender or gay, though I have many friends and acquaintances who are. I wouldn’t presume to explain it to you, but you’re incorrect. I hope someone who freely identifies that way will explain it.

I'm just an Ally - but I went for it.

Promises to keep to a friend and a niece. 😉 And more than one member on this site.

1

I think it's a case of the sex organs not corresponding to the gender.

0

Evolutionary biologist, Jerry Coyne, has some interesting blog posts on the two subjects of sex (binary / strongly bimodal) and gender (bimodal).

[whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com]

[whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com]

0

Used to be one sex, now another. The surgery does not change the x and y cromosomes. I do support the LGBTQLMOPQRSTUZWYYSXA tho.

0

Check this video from Contrapoints on YouTube. I think it’s very informative.

0

It's ridiculous. Since according to their definition, gender is a social construct, then we can also look at other social constructs. If a 6'2", red haired Irishman went to Japan, really like the social construct there, said, "I was assigned the wrong culture at birth. I am getting hair transplants, having a doctor cut 6 inches out of my shin and thigh bones, and performing plastic surgery so that I look like the Japanese person I identify with" - we would think they are nuts. It's the exact same principle, and is ludicrous. If you're that Irishman, then go enjoy the culture, but realize that just because you 'identify' with that social construct, doesn't mean you are that social construct, and never will be. Get over it, accept yourself for who you are, and enjoy what part of life you can. Just as the Japanese people will never accept you as one of them, even with all the surgery - and in the same way, it goes for the transgender community. I find it ridiculous they expect society to accept them, when they can't even accept themselves. And sorry - no 52 y/o man will ever be a 6 y/o girl.

Source:

@mzbehavin I don't think so. He's made a comparison that I can understand. at some point we have to just settle for the hand we're dealt. Being gay I can understand but transgender really gives me problems understanding. And i've read up on it too.

@Nardi
The comparisons made by @jondspen are completely invalid. A person's age is the measurement of the length of time they have been alive, it is not an expression of any part of their self.

What @jondspen called culture is actually a blending of race and culture, and neither of those are valid comparisons either. Culture is not assigned at birth, it is dependent on the location an individual is raised in and how they are raised. The racial characteristics that were described are not an expression of the self either, they are immutable physical characteristics.

A social construct is something that exists not in objective reality but only as a result of human interaction. Gender is not a social construct because an individual's gender exists regardless of human interaction.

Gender is more than just the physical characteristics of sex, gender identity has a mind component as well and in a Transgender person the physical and mental don't line up.

Gender Dysphoria is a real condition where the gender in a person's mind does not match with the physical expression of their gender. It is really simple, not difficult to understand, and has nothing to do with a person's sexual orientation.

If you are having a difficult time understanding it, and are not just trolling here, try checking out some of the resources that Transgender organizations provide on their websites, or looking into current scientific research on gender and gender identity, or talk to someone who is Transgender.

@mzbehavin that is correct to assume as even the material out there that i've found on the subject is not conclusive in anyway. It's always hard to explain etc just leads me to confusion.

@Nardi It is defined as a mental disorder, but I am sure SJW and PC society will force scientists and doctors to renounce SCIENCE and adhere to opinioned EMOTIONS of the masses. Amazes me so many atheists/agnostics on here are so religious. The difference is their devils are make believe oppressive systems, and their god is some fairy tale theology, that if everyone would "just believe" would bring about a utopia on Earth.

@icolan OK fine, lets uses some leftists redefinition and split hairs here - age is to sex as gender is to maturity. Since the left get to redefine terms, and you are saying I can't redefine age, I will redefine the word maturity. So now we can have a world where people don't identify with their assigned chronological maturity, and thus you have a 52 y/o man going to the restroom and having sleep overs with 6 y/o girls!!!! Yea....nothing at all wrong with that, other than I'm an insensitive ass who doesn't accept it's perfectly safe and the new normal for shit like this to go down. Ok...let's see if you invite him over for a play date when and if you ever have a daughter.

EDIT - so what? Gender can be said to be the same. We are all part of the human race, and part of the human culture of Earth. Moot point. BTW - Japanese people are not a race anyway. And they do have a very different CULTURE than people from Korea, Mongolia, China, Okinawa, Taiwan, Vietnam - etc etc etc. A trans woman identifies with a different sex's culture than what they were born into. Unless you subscribe to there are multiple genders, which I would argue if true, means there is actually 7,346,235,000 genders on earth as of August 23, 2016 ( [worldpopulationreview.com] )

I have no problem accepting any person in whatever way they wish to be. You should try it, instead of reacting to a label somebody else made up to influence your thinking.

@jondspen Thats going off topic even if valid.

I wonder why they call gender a social construct. I think of it as how a person feels inside. The only reason I can think of right now is they want to say it's somebody else's fault. If fault is involved, it must be the fault of how the body is informed by its proteins as it is chemically formed. But we assume that only two genders are intended by nature when it might very well be the case that nature throws out a spectrum of alternatives, most of them lying on a kind of bell curve.

@jondspen Homosexuality was also defined as a mental disorder for a very long time. I suppose you believe that science can't find evidence to change a position like that?

There is no such thing as "assigned chronological maturity", maturity is not something that is assigned, nor necessarily bound to an individual's chronological age.
We already have a word to describe people whose maturity level does not match their chronological age, immature.

The example you are citing is more than just a transgender person, it is a person who has some serious issues they need to work through, and is not indicative of the transgender community. As I stated before, age is not subjective, and if that individual chooses to live as a 6 year old that is their choice but there are consequences to that choice.

@brentan Like I said above - that means there are 7,346,235,000 genders on the planet Earth as of August 2016. Since everyone is unique...and given we accept your POV - let's follow it thru to it's logical conclusion.

@icolan Can and has are two different things. "assigned chronological maturity" is a thing, I just made it up, and just like trans POV, whatever I make up and believe is true, and now you have to accept it, otherwise you hurt my self image, and PC SJW culture can't have people's feelings hurt, unless your're a cisgender straight white male - then it's ok.

@jondspen Good Bye, I am done talking with someone who is so obviously ignorant.

@jondspen No, it means most people fall on the bell curve. That means that many are one gender or the other, most of the variations are small which I think means some men have some amount of a feminine side and vice-versa for women. Transgender people account for a small percentage of the total.

@jondspen Homosexuality was defined as a mental disorder in a less enlightened era, too. That wasn't a renunciation of science, it was evidence-based and an example of technicians (doctors -- practitioners of applied science) being forced to go with the science they had been by turns making up or denying all along. Not unlike Nazi doctors and their junk science about race, really.

My suspicion is that gender identity issues will end up being an epigenetic issue and I'd hope that it could be corrected at birth so people don't have to go through the confusion and pain they do now -- or in the alternative, be obliged to pursue expensive, risky, complex and generally unsatisfactory surgical and hormonal interventions (the very fact they do so should tell you the condition is a genuine one). Even then, some may choose not to align their physical, mental and emotional orientations and that's okay, too. What's the big deal anyway. Diversity is a Good Thing.

@mordant First, sure, but what if it isn't. What if more research on the brains are done on TG and it's found to indeed be a mental disorder? Right now it's defined as such, and stating it's not b/c we got homosexuality wrong in the past is a dumb reason. So should we ignore the current EXPERTS b/c they might or might not be wrong, and pass legislation and change society to just b/c we pity TG?

Second, (this will also address @brentan bell curve argument) homosexual behavior is seen in the wild. From my research, NOT one piece of evidence in ANY mammalian society structure has male's of the species remaining members in female pack b/c they feel like they were assigned the wrong 'gender'. Silver back apes, elephants, lions - any other mammal species where the males are cast out, or gender defined roles in the pack exist, NEVER has there been any proof transgender or gender dysphoria occurs in nature. Therefore, by definition, it's not natural (unlike homosexuality - which we do see in nature).

Third - here's a link that makes some other interesting and valid points. Lesson from History: Transgender Mania is Sign of Cultural Collapse - Camille Paglia (btw - who is a lesbian from what I've read)

@Nardi Read what I wrote. I know actual transgendered people.

At least one is an XXY. Not XX not XY.

SCIENCE.

Science that made someone change in Utero that could have gone to either gender.

Now at this point whether male to female - female to male - a trans person doesn't even have to chose hormones.

They can simply chose new pronouns and to live as their gender of choice.

To pretend it's a Psychiatric issue is entirely incorrect. My degree is in Psychology - we stopped using the DSM to categorize Transgendered as Body Dysmorphic quite a while ago.

Yes there are people with Body Dysmorphia - and that is something that is checked with therapy prior to surgery. (Due Diligence).

It's no longer what Transgendered people are "diagnosed with". That is very outdated information.

@jondspen mental disorder??? Wow.

@RavenCT 5 years ago [lifesitenews.com] "‘Transgendered’ are people who claim that they really are or wish to be people of the sex opposite to which they were born, or to which their chromosomal configuration attests," Dr. Berger stated. - XXY is called an Intersex Condition

3 years ago [cnsnews.com] where "Dr. McHugh, the author of six books and at least 125 peer-reviewed medical articles" is "the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder." And as of 2 years ago still says the same thing here [washingtonpost.com]

And CURRENTLY, the Mayo Clinic [psychiatry.org] and APA [psychiatry.org] still reference the DSM.

I find that ( 1 ) people arguing for TG support one sub group and then when pressed on an argument they can't win, change the point to talk about another sub-group. Let's be clear, transgender is an lay-man's umbrella term for many different sub-groups. So on that point I think we agree.

Also, although it doesn't matter, you could be a garbage collector and still be stating true facts and data, I wonder what your actual credentials are...b/c from what I see, I don't believe you are a licensed psychologist or psychiatrists, esp. if you're discrediting the DSM and stating it's not being used by the industry. I would be interested to know what you're terminal degree is (bachelor, masters, PhD), and exactly what field you are working in within mental health. Finally, when you say WE, are you talking about the whole field? I mean, do you really expect me to think you speak for every licensed doctor in the mental health field? Don't try to impress me, or win the argument with credentials and anecdotal evidence from your specific clinic - I require proof, much like the references I have given from reputable sources. Out of every medical class that graduates, someone finished last....just saying.

But the main point, and one no one wants to engage - again, "current EXPERTS b/c they might or might not be wrong, and pass legislation and change society to just b/c we pity TG". News outlets and people on Facebook rush to be the first to report or mention something to be the one with the scoop. I however, don't feel that changing laws and social structures, just b/c there is a SLIGHT chance I can be the first person on my block that accepted this currently classified abnormality as being something which is now based on unfounded opinions and emotions. I don't hate TG as people, and definitely don't think they should be murdered, beaten. I also don't think we should let transgender women compete in women's Olympic sports, when they biologically are a man, be promoted in the military based on physical performance on women's physical fitness standards, or allow them to dictate to me how I have to live my life and force language laws on society.

@Nardi He gave you metaphors that are false equivalencies. Therefore, any understanding you gleaned from them are going to be skewed in a wrong direction. And the fact that he made such utterly false and logically flawed fallacies means he is only looking for confirmation bias validation and not even trying to truly understand. You do not seem like that is what you are doing, so please take his misinformation and outdated knowledge with a salt lick's worth of grains.

@Kafirah Blah blah blah....care to explain, or just say "you're wrong b/c I said so"?

EDIT - on second thought, I don't care. No one but me has provided any scientific references from actual people in the mental health industry. I will admit, this isn't my field, but I trust them (references) over anyone here. Good night to all.

@jondspen Sure, you condescending person... I'll spell it out for you. Your knowledge is outdated, as not every transgendered person has gender dysphoria or gender dysmorphia, and no one can change races as that is determined by the DNA of your parents, and your DNA determines your sex, not your gender. Gender is assigned at birth because of your genitals, whereas gender identity is determined by how you think your genitals should be. And no, that doesn't mean how big your dick is... that's just vanity. Your brain structure, i.e. your neural pathways, are determined initially by your DNA and can be compared to others via an MRI or CATScan or EEG or all of the above and it has been found that transgendered individuals brain patterns more closely resemble others of their preferred gender rather than the gender that they were assigned at birth. Some being indistinguishable from what you would consider to be their opposite sex. So, since the WHO and the APA haven't consider transgenderism a mental disorder for over a decade, and race is a false equivalency that you inaccurately applied, and the science of actual neurology and neuroscience say that you are utterly wrong, I rest my case. But, you don't give a shit about actually learning any new and correct information, so I stand behind my previous comment. Feel free to prove me wrong with a google search from reputable sources. The burden of proof is still on your original claims...

Transgenderism is not categorized as a Mental Disorder any longer: [huffingtonpost.com]

Even when it was thought to be Body Dysmorphia of some sort - they were doing surgery to correct it.

Now we know better. I suggest you read up. And maybe read a few newer articles

Here is what the American Psychological Association has posted on the topic - trying to undo all the harm they did in the past: [apa.org]

@jondspen three things... 1) I was right. You don't give a shit about being better informed, as you started shit, got told, provided the proof you supposedly were seeking via links from @RavenCT, picked up your toys and went home to pout like a child with no real argument, 2) You cherry-pick articles and sources like a Christian Apologist, and 3) all of your information is outdated except for the fact that yes the DSM still recognizes Gender Dysmorphia still exists, but your own source clearly states that it doesn't apply to all transgendered people, and I quote,

"Not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Gender dysphoria and/or coming out as transgender can occur at any age.

The DSM-5* distinguishes between Gender Dysphoria in Childhood for those who experience GD before puberty. The diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria in Adolescents and Adults can occur at any age. For those who experience gender dysphoria later in life, they often report having secretly hidden their gender dysphoric feelings from others when they were younger."

so, come back when you actually want to learn something and not just spew rhetoric you can't back up with actual evidence.

@jondspen The DSM gets updated every few years.

I have a BA in Psych btw.

Frankly I could have a HS degree and still know they updated the DSM (Diagnostic Statistical Manual of the American Psychological Association) - it's in every Public Library in the country. Free for anyone to read.

Body Dysmorphia will always be in the DSM - as people will always be dissatisfied with their bodies - however that is NOT what Transgendered people are diagnosed as any longer.

It's not considered a Psychiatric Disorder.

Do some current reading - I've provided you links above.

It used to be - we didn't know better. We are learning more about the Science (Biology - Neuroscience - Chemistry) all of it - that explains why someone can feel they are entirely in the wrong body. It's their brain. Not some deep seated emotional issue. (Which even when I was being forced to treat it that way - we didn't particularly believe it and still tried to help people much the way we do today).

Find out which gender they prefer to be called by.
Respect it and go from there.

Being deliberately obtuse about it makes it harder on them. I don't know why it's so very hard for some to understand when we seem to have some so far with the LGBTQ Community. But there you have it.

I do suspect it has to do with reassignment surgery freaking people out.
Don't worry - we don't plan to make others have it.

And not all Trans people have reassignment. So there you have it.

@jondspen Yes I did. And then you questioned my credentials - when all you had to do was look at updated APA information.

Here's a link to the PDF file: [apa.org]

Plus their current explanation on what might be causation.

@RavenCT @Kafirah Everything we have discussed I think has been addressed in this debate. Seems the science is still being researched and many questions still remain. Not sure we should take any actions on preteens or teens on puberty blockers or assignment surgery. Adults are a different discussion on this topic, but with similar concerns. and I just propose we are more cautions until we figure out what's going on. I do think we should look at objective data and not questionnaires to determine the truth of the situation. And like Crowder, that doesn't mean I don't think TG don't deserve basic respect, freedom, and liberty; I just don't think they deserve more than any other group.

@jondspen I'm not living it - so I can't speak to the teens who get blockers and hormones. It means if they change their decisions - there's going to be issues. But those cases are very few. (And tend to have to do with some deep seated Mental Health issues that should have been addressed prior to surgery).
Getting "around" pre-surgery therapy is a bad idea in my book. The possibility of gender dysmorphia from prior abuse or any other cause - should be explored. As an Ally I've sat in a room filled with women who were all Lesbians or Bisexual and 8 out of the 10 women had been sexually abused.

Did the abuse change who they wanted to have sex with? I'm not sure.
I was just shocked to realize there could be a correlation when we were all "Me Too" (and I'm CIS gendered and straight). So abuse didn't change that for me.

So that pre-treatment therapy component is key to me. (First do no harm). And the hormones and blockers can change those teen bodies a lot. So yes - therapy first. Make sure that they know how they feel is really "How they feel".
But just like my Gay friends tell me their first crush was on a same sex teacher? My Trans friends have said that they knew from an early age that they felt they were looking at the wrong body.



I just wish society was a bit easier.  The folks who deliberately misgender or give you shit about using a bathroom?  (I mean there are a few bathrooms here and there for "anyone" - usually for  parents with a changing table in there.).  Otherwise you have to go by how you are presenting and hope no one is unpleasant.
It makes me nervous because humans just aren't known for always being nice.
However when they are? It really makes my day.

And to watch a store clerk deliberately say "Sir" when someone has full makeup and a skirt on? It's like "Buddy your parents needed to give you more manners than that!".   (What's interesting is kids of a certain age? Do not care what gender you are - as long as you smile at them - they want to engage and smile back at you - I found that to be interesting.).  

It costs so very little to gender someone as they'd like to be.  
More than anything I wish folks would take a few seconds to use all the clues and do that.  

Not asking for everyone to understand how it works to be different.  There are too many flavors of humanity for that.  But if someone says "I'm a woman" or "I'm a man" - use the right pronouns.

We even have a member who is Genderfluid here who prefers we use "They". I hope I get it right? And If I don't I've told them to correct me.  It's the only way to get there.

@RavenCT Sure....and like I said, I would never call them a freak or less of a person, but as it stands now, suicide rates and professional diagnosis classifies part of the lay-term transgender community as having a mental disorder. Is it possible they, and I am wrong, sure, I won't deny that possibility. But first, transgender is a very broad term assigned to many different sub-groups. Two - sometimes it's argued that gender is a social construct, then it's turned into a biological brain composition. Third - even the studies say there is a lot going on we don't understand. I don't want to roll the dice that emotional sympathy might turn out to be factual data, if we pressure the scientists enough to skew their research so as to accommodate social pressures - esp when suicide or other violence is on the table.

My concern about the topic is ( 1 ) treating a man as a women, in sports or the military. Men are physically stronger than women on average, and having a man compete against women in sports, or promoted based on women's physical fitness scores standards (or passing up a qualified woman b/c she is graded against TG men standards) is wrong. ( 2 ) The high suicide rate is concerning - and should be the first and foremost problem addressed in the TG community. I don't care about anything else, one's feeling, ones rights, etc. Death is much more a problem, b/c if your dead, you can't feel accepted or exercise any basic human rights. I don't want to see any person so depressed and emotional they kill themselves - pre or post transition, period. ( 3 ) I don't think they should be afforded special legal protection from discrimination. It's perfectly within a landlords right to deny residency to a TG person as the law stands now - just as a TG landlord can deny residency to a hateful and mean cisgender resident in a TG community. People want to cry boo hoo when a TG person is denied, but don't think about the flip side of denying a TG landlord, running a TG rental community, the right and ability to protect residence from hateful and judgmental cisgender applicants. There are other reasons, but I think I have given 3 good examples of the problems and questions that surround this issue, that have not been thoroughly investigated and considered.

@jondspen Just as in the original Lesbian and Gay Communities - suicide rates are most likely high due to lack of acceptance.

You can see in this thread alone how much people struggle with understanding being Trans. And we're not asking anyone to change themselves - simply to accept that others might need to change themselves. No different really - than a gay person coming out.

I am a firm believer in equal rights for EVERYONE. Period.
And lack of discrimination. I'm unsure why trans folks keep getting singled out as okay to be discriminated against. (It's not extra protection - it's just protection - just like we did for Blacks or Gays at one time - even the Disabled). If it has to be written into law. Well then it has to be.

We know Men usually have more upper body strength than woman. (CIS gendered). However - what that has to do with anyone not being comfortable in the body they were born in - I just don't know?

It's more important to get those people to a place where they are happy. And where people don't deliberately set out to hurt them.


I'm going to give you an example of how I figured this all out and why it doesn't affect me:
When I was in college a Lesbian friend of mine told me another Lesbian friend was interested in dating me.  We both knew I was a Straight woman - however - she was being polite and passing along what the person had said "Was I interested?".

Well no - however - in discussing it - and not in full public view - I realized that al lthe gay bashing that was going on - was a whole load of bull shit. It was actually flattering to realize someone could find my packaging appealing even though I didn't want to date them.
Who doesn't like to find out they made someone's heart go pitter patter? 

That was one of those moments for me.  I was already open minded and didn't like seeing people hurt - but why they heck we have to be so negative around other people's choice all the time - I just don't know?   

People are still getting beaten to death in cities everywhere over stuff like that. They were back then too.
~~~~~
The reasons you cited? Those can all get figured out. (One would hope anyway?).

Fitness standards/Performance standards - they can sort those out to be fair - based on the biology of the person. Not the chosen pronouns. 

I don't think landlords should be denying anyone a home. Does that crap still go on? I thought that was against the law?

I don't think anyone should be discriminated against.  I find it appalling that people keep trying to add "Well except for trans people - we can discriminate like crazy against them".
Did you see that bill where they wanted to leave it so they could be lynched? I sure did.
That was some terrible people right there.
~~~~
It's literally just trying to get them the same rights everyone else has.  Just not to be discriminated against on the basis of hate and fear.  

We don't need to go to the paradigm of separate drinking fountains ever again. 

@RavenCT "original Lesbian and Gay Communities - suicide rates are most likely high due to lack of acceptance." - any proof? [suicidology.org] is the only thing I could find regarding suicide in the past. I would also point out that there are many risk factors, so even if you can cite it was very high, there are other risk factors
listed that can and do attribute to the suicide rate. Mental health, drug use, alcohol use, self-hate - many things cited here are very obviously part of the TG community. [suicidology.org] doesn't give any past data on historical suicide rates.
I don't care about you feelings, or your intiutions...as an atheist - I care about facts and data.

"And we're not asking anyone to change themselves - simply to accept that others might need to change themselves." - First, you literally contradicted yourself in the same sentence. Why do I have to change for you? Why do I have to accept you? Many people on here don't accept conservatives, pro-life, pro-gun, white cisgender males, really anything to the right side of the left, even moderates, are pretty much vilified on here. And guess what, these people don't cry and whine about not being accepted. You want to feel out of place, go to Africa or Japan as a Caucasian. Live in the Bible Belt as an atheist. TG people don't accept themselves, but the rest of the world is suppose to accept them. Unbelievable...

"It's not extra protection - it's just protection - just like we did for Blacks or Gays at one time - even the Disabled" - no, it's not the same protection. First - there are laws against violence, so no need to pass a law that murder or assault against TG is wrong. [nolo.com] also points out there is currently no federal law preventing discrimination against sexual orientation. So what 'rights' do you want? The ability to force people to accept you, when you can't accept yourself? Ludicrous...

"It's more important to get those people to a place where they are happy" - and here we go again, it's the worlds job to be a fuzzy warm happy place for you. No, it's not my responsibility to get ANYONE besides myself and my family members to a place where they can TRY and have access to what makes them happy. We are guaranteed the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - that means you have to pursue it, not have it delivered to you.

"I don't think landlords should be denying anyone a home." - They own a business, so why do you decide who they are forced to rent to? And no, many people are denied residency based on many factors. Credit, criminal history, attitude, pet ownership, essentially ANY OTHER reason besides the ones listed here [en.wikipedia.org] It's called free market capitalism, where a person is free to engage in a business contract at their discretion.

"I don't think anyone should be discriminated against" - well good for you, except that isn't how the world works. People are discriminated against all the time. Physical looks, financial resources, clothing, physical stature, experience, education, political beliefs, and again, the list can go on.

So with this, I am bowing out of the discussion. Please feel free to comment, but I will not be replying. I am tired of arguing a point against virtue signaling, emotional pleas, and your personal perceptions. IDC to hear anymore "I think" arguments - I want some factual data and references, proof the condition is not a mental illness and DSM 5 is wrong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria), not your moral arguments that the world isn't fair and it's so sad. Guess what - that's how it is. Accept yourself, accept the world is cold and cruel, accept that TG is not a natural thing seen in nature (unlike race or homosexuality), and accept you can't force people to like and accept you.

@jondspen Well as I've lived through decades with that population of folks in psychological treatment I guess my opinion is worth something. I saw what people being dismissive and nasty does. You can try to explain it differently to me - but that's not going to work.

I've explained here as best I know how - with facts and with emotions and my own knowledge base as well.

Fine if you don't want to be an advocate or understanding. That's your choice.

I've tried really hard to listen to people on this site of all types. You might not have noticed?

I'm actually a Humanist. I'd like to see all Humans treat each other better. (There's actually information about Humanism up there under the "Learn" button so I don't have to go find a bunch of articles on that topic. You can read about if you'd like to.

But part of that is not dismissing people out of hand. And trying to educate on the things dear to my heart.

Everything you need to learn factual information about Trans Issues is on this page.

I think the World Health Organization and the American Psychological Association are perfectly good resources to start with.

If you can't be swayed - that's your choice. And your decision. I think perhaps others have learned through this rather lengthy thread while I tried to educate you - and therefore - it was worth the time I put into it.

@RavenCT Not one fact given, just your opinion or anecdotal evidence. Only references was a pdf pamphlet from APA and an article from Huffpost about the WHO. Sorry, but DSM 5 still has it classified as a disorder, but of course had to change the name from disorder b/c that might make people not feel good (more examples of politics influencing science). But yea, you argued with facts and data, I was just too stoopid and closed minded to understand. <eye roll> Good night

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