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I Have A Dream: What if we (Atheist / Agnostics / Freethinkers / Humanist and Free People of All
Kind ) had our own country. What kind of country we should create. If you could envision it in the future... What would you envision? What are your thoughts on laws, politics, human rights... etc.

missgi 5 Mar 20
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"The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot."

~ Carl Sagan - Pale Blue Dot

My fave

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Basic Human Needs
by Wavy Gravy

And wouldn't it be neat if the people that you meet had shoes upon their feet
and something to eat
and wouldn't it be fine, now if all of human kind had shelter

Basic Human needs, basic human deeds, doing what comes naturally
Down in the garden, when no one is apart
Deep down in the garden, the garden of your heart

Wouldn't it be grand if we all lend a hand so each one of us could stand on a free piece of land
and wouldn't it be thrilling if folks stopped their killing and started in tilling the land

Basic Human Needs, basic human deeds, doing what comes naturally
Down in the garden, when no one is a apart
Deep down in the garden, the garden of your heart

Not just churches, not just steeples, give me peoples helping peoples
Help your self and work out till the stars begin to shout, thank god for something to do

Wouldn't it be daring if folks started sharing, instead of comparing, what each other was wearing
And wouldn't it be swell if people didn't sell their mother earth

Basic Human needs, basic human deeds, doing what comes naturally
Down in the garden, when no one is apart
Deep down in the garden, the garden of your heart

3

"If we want a social system that is not alienating—one in which production is more decentralized, controlled by workers and communities, with meaningful labor, with smaller-scale agriculture, with human-centered technology, with equality in all spheres of life, with true, substantive democracy, with poisons removed for our soil, air, and water, with as much protection as possible from life’ slings and arrows—then we must look at what we have now as a whole, as an interconnected set or processes and institutions that are utterly alienating. They must be rejected root and branch, attacked all at once and all the time."

[counterpunch.org]

3

New Zealand minus religion.

Perfect. We spent a month there this past year. If I was 40 years old or younger, I'd move there.

@bigpawbullets I have a friend who lives there - he (& his family) have been trying to get me to move there for years. I have a little problem with moving my little zoo.....

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i don't favor segregation. i favor separation of church and state. i love the united states, which is going through an ugly time with ugly institutions and an ugly administration; i'd rather work hard and save it than give up and go ignore the folks who are not like us but also populate the world.

g

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Globalism does not have to be a dirty word.

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I would envision AMERICA without tRump, and without religion. Wouldn't it be loverly?!?

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Eminently achievable, with the right mindset and focus.

Most of us at least?

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The country should be created and governed on the basis of the concept of treating all people and our environment with full dignity and respect, and creating and sustaining real opportunity for all. Th legal system should be based on that same concept, prohibiting acts which violate the dignity and rights of others, and regulating all economic activity to ensure that no one and no organization is able to take advantage, use, or abuse others.

The political system should be a democracy in structure and in underlying principles, There should be no PACs and no dark money. No business entity or special interest should be able to funnel funds into political campaigns. There should be spending limits on campaigns for public office, with no spending allowed for radio or television ads. Radio, television, and print media should be required to give each candidate a specified amount of time or space without charge, and host debates. There should be strict gun control, with all assault weapons, automatic weapons of any kind, or pistols.

Religious organizations should be allowed, but there should be an absolute separation of church and state.Any church or religious organization attempting to meddle in politics should be disbanded and its assets seized and sold off. Any religious leader attempting to co-mingle politics and religion should be liable to a felony charge with possible imprisonment..

The economic system should be a mixed one -- a combination of governmental services for all citizens and regulated enterprise. All business entities should be required to be responsible organizations not attempting to use or abuse people, and which also pay their fair share to sustain needed governmental services. No corporation should be allowed to try to squeeze local or state governments for tax exemptions just for locating there. As well, there should be both universal healthcare, and a countrywide retirement system under government funding and control.

That is a start.

I agree but I am not so sure about the religious aspect. Food for thought for me.

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People are =/= to their religion

I am most definitely an infidel in that I have no belief in any god or gods. A person’s individual godview is the most basic right possible that a human being can have. I personally reject Islam, Judaism, and Christianity (among others)…but do not reject Muslims, Jews, and Christians. A person’s religion and religious culture are most predictably based on their family of origin, where they were born (geography), and when they were born (i.e. no Xians pre-Christ).

I stand with all people on the planet willing to work together as a species to live peacefully with each other and our environment. That does not change regardless of the actions of some who think their ‘godview’ justifies any number of horrible acts.

I reject those who use such acts to demonize people who are damned for nothing more than ‘guilt by association.’

~ LanceThruster

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In all seriousness...

"Today the societies and peoples of the developed countries are tragically experiencing the capitalist crisis created by its own market. Capitalist governments think that it is more important to save the banks than to save human beings, and it is more important to save the companies than to save people. In the capitalist system the banks have priority economic rights and enjoy first-class citizenship, which is why we can say that the banks are worth more than life. In this unfettered capitalism, individuals and peoples are not brothers and sisters, they are not citizens, they are not human beings; individuals and peoples are debt defaulters, borrowers, tenants and clients; in short, if people do not have money, they are nothing."

[climateandcapitalism.com]

Yes

@WilliamCharles You're not my sociology lecturer in disguise are you?LOL

@Sofabeast

"I'm just some guy."

~ Zaphod Beeblebrox

@WilliamCharles At least I didn't panic... bugger tomorrow is Thursday, I could never get the hang of Thursdays..

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I envision all kneeling before me and following my words blindly. Oh wait...

lol I had that same vision 🙂

Thomas Hobbes proposed exactly that around 1680.

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Some actually have a problem with this. ?

@missgi This comes to mind when I see conservatives argue that the costs in mitigating the harm would be prohibitive.

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Well I imagine two scenarios they would create one where individuals thoughts,expressions, and beliefs wouldnt be oppressed in which case people of every religion would exist.
Or
Modern day Russia and China both countries denounce religion publicly and have histories of tearing down churches

Contemporary Russia does not, in fact Putin has embraced the Orthodox Church. What you suggested was true for the Soviet era, 1917-1991. Indeed, the current administration works closely with the Orthodox Church and even funds building new ones.

@Skeptic66 Well I stand corrected. Communist USSR openly denounced churches.
Russia does not

@missgi oh I didn't realize you were omniscient. Amazing.

@missgi
[nytimes.com]

[en.wikipedia.org]

Just two quick examples.

@Skeptic66 The church grew stronger under communism in the USSR, exactly because it was seen as an alternative to the state.

@Fernapple that might be True but doesn't change the fact the state encouraged atheism and tore down churches ( not all but some)

@Biosteelman True, but the church trives on persecution, it is after all a religion that pretends to be a religion of the persecuted. The best way to deal with Christianity is to starve it, good welfare makes it go away.

@Fernapple That makes sense. I wonder if it holds up to scrutiny. I'll grab some data later and see if it does.

@Biosteelman One factor which leads to that is that in the US where you have separation of church and state the church is very strong. Here in N. Europe where many countries have state churches Xianity is fading fast. There is also I believe a linkage between state welfare and religiocity.

@Fernapple we have a "seperation" of church and state but many of our laws, traditions, and even culture are pervasive of the church.
That's why in the US you can't buy a new car on Sunday, because of blue laws.
I don't know how much worse it is in Europe but we also have the lowest legal marrying age outside of the middle east

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Yet no one will be forced to stand, either.

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The only problem I see is that every religious group would take it as a personal challenge to invade and convert the country. There would not be a minutes peace.

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And time is running out.

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Honestly, it sounds like a clusterfuck in the making.
On the surface it seems like a great idea, but the more I think about it......
Buying and/or conquering the needed land. Who is in charge? Working out the laws alone..... Maybe use the constitution as guidance only include EVERYONE.

If we can't accept everyone, we find fault with others. This would be jumping out of the frying pan into the skillet.

1

This brings to mind an element of working for our mutual benefit that has always concerned me. Using the analogy of a commune, how would/should we deal with those "freeloaders" (essentially) whose actions (or often inaction) threatens the health of the group as a whole.

I have often argued that the family is the perfect example of, "To each according to their needs, from each according to their abilities."

A family doesn't withhold food from infants for not "pulling their own weight," but at some point incorporate children into age appropriate chores like dishes and sweeping.

"Be aware of this truth that the people on this earth could be joyous, if only they would live rationally and if they would contribute mutually to each others' welfare.

This world is not a vale of sorrows if you will recognize discriminatingly what is truly excellent in it; and if you will avail yourself of it for mutual happiness and well-being. Therefore, let us explain as often as possible, and particularly at the departure of life, that we base our faith on firm foundations, on Truth for putting into action our ideas which do not depend on fables and ideas which Science has long ago proven to be false.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Palm Sunday: An Autobiographical Collage

Kurt is quoting his great grandfather Clemens Vonnegut.

1

Boring. We need the extreme on both end to keep us balanced.

Really...with 65 years on this planet up my sleeve, I will take boring every day!

@patchoullijulie crazy is all around us. A utopian society wouldn't work. I personally need the people nuttier then me to make me look rational.

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I am happy with the country we have. A variety of opinions on various subjects, including religion, is healthy and desirable.

Whenever opinionated people have tried to exclude those who disagree the result has been failure.

Religious people do not disturb me in the least. I have my own weird form of religion that I call bewilderment.

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One not built on stolen land for starters, I'm ashamed to say. The Doctrine of Discovery was an abomination.

"This country has had so much misfortune, you'd think it was built atop a sacred Indian burial mound or something."

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"Fight them to the end, until the children of the poor eat better than the dogs of the rich."

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Working together is not anti-progress.

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