How would socialism work without replacing individual rights with collective ones? By definition socialism is collectivist.

@Happy_Killbot Collectivism isn't some onerous concept designed to strip people of their rights or individuality, it's a means to do the most good for the most people -- at least in this country. I have no kids but I'd be fine with paying a little extra in taxes to support debt-free college because it's better for the country as a whole. Conservatives hate socialism because it benefits others on their dime. I see it as an investment in making a better country for all.

@Sgt_Spanky That doesn't really answer my question. Free schooling means that everyone gets the same advantage in life and is therefore equal, but not necessarily collectivist. You got schooling for yourself as a kid, so in theory everyone ends up paying for their own education once they are in the workforce. The definition you are using seems to be more utilitarian than collectivist.

High debt for college students is a recent problem which was caused by the government making all student loans public (socialized ) So that they could sell government debt to the students. If we go all the way and make all schools fully socialized, that means that they could sell all their debt to the public, meaning that they would have low risk investments paid for by the american people. Democrats love socialism because it benefits them on others' dime.

There are certain "markets" that don't lend themselves to capitalism. Healthcare is one. Education is another. Fire departments, police are more. The military is yet another.

The value in many areas of life have no direct monetary value (although certainly indirect ones). The value in healthcare is not money, but health. The value of education is not money, but functional individuals and groups. The value of fire departments, police, and military are all necessary for the general good.

If we were the kind of society that just let people die without health insurance, or had a choice as to whether we wanted to live or die, or let our children live or die, then a for profit health insurance industry in a for profit healthcare industry might work. But when the market is set by "how much are you or your health insurance willing to pay to save your child's life", the market is broken.
[nytimes.com]

I would like to believe that the Invisible Hand of supply and demand can solve all problems, sadly I cannot your points are valid. I ran into a man today who was talking to me bald a bill before Congress to reduce rent, this kind of government intervention would clearly be a violation of capitalist principles although it may have popular support.

Trump care? Romney care?

Take off the blinders, man.

There is no good govt.

@m16566 Sadly, rent reductions are desperately needed by millions. Increases in the cost of housing has far outpaced inflation and increases in income for tens of millions of Americans. Add student loan debt that has nearly tripled in the last decade or so, and a significant number of Americans need government subsidies for housing. Meantime, we have a record number of domiciles sitting vacant as banks continue to make obscene amounts of money on housing loans (yet get completely bailed out by all of us when they deliberately engineer a housing bubble they knew was going to collapse).

The American people who work full time deserve a break. It's bad enough that almost all new income in the last 11 years has gone to the top 1%, and that the wealth and income gaps have grown exponentially since the 1970s. And these aren't unrelated, accidental, or coincidental phenomena.

Unchecked capitalism is the source of almost all of our society's present evils. I get reminded of this fact nearly every day in my profession. It has bred out of control selfishness and greed, and has left most Americans struggling just to get by, while a tiny handful continue to grow more and more wealth, and hoard more and more income.

Textbook socialism isn't great, but capitalism hardly seems to be the answer, either. At least not for more than 160 million Americans. But I guess it's easier for some to believe that 160 million people are stupid and lazy than it is to believe that about 300,000 or so are excessively greedy and selfish.

@greyeyed123

The Scandanavian countries privatized their education system with a state run option. Because Capitalism works in ALL markets, the state option got crushed and was forced to make sweeping improvements.

Look at the US college system and healthcare systems since govt has gotten involved.

Many people conflate pooled resources with govt control. Not the same thing. Govt control of these systems clearly does not work.

it's not a matter necessarily shrinking the government.
it is a matter of what areas you want the government involved in, do you want the government to fix prices?
have Supply quotas?
involve itself in central planning of agriculture and Industry.?
what industries are you willing to turn over to the government?
I believe the next industry the social Democrats will attempt to control will be the energy sector under the guise of the green New Deal

@BryanLV Since you say capitalism works in all markets, should we abolish the military for competitive, private bidders?

How can capitalism work in ALL markets when a pharmaceutical company can arbitrarily set a price on a life saving drug simply because you will die (or your child) without it?

Capitalism is not magic, nor perfect. That doesn't mean we toss it. It means we mitigate the problems with it.

Also, can you cite some sources on this claim: "Because Capitalism works in ALL markets, the state option got crushed and was forced to make sweeping improvements."

I have found a small percentage of students in Sweden go to private schools.

I have found that "Only a small number of independent schools exist in Finland, and even they are all publicly financed. None is allowed to charge tuition fees."

Huh.

Denmark I find, "Denmark has a tradition of private schools and about 15.6% of all children at basic school level attend private schools, which are supported by a voucher system"

And at this point I am giving up. The state option got crushed? I'm not sure what you are talking about. Can you be more specific?

Something that has always bothered me is the miss use of the term Fascism. Authoritarian is usually a better word for what is meant. Fascism is at it's corp a cult of personality. Trump is a would be Fascist. Bernie is not. The all time world champion fascist was Franco of Spain. Hitler and Mussolini got the press but they were losers. Franco was undefeated.

clearly there is a difference between the parties.
if you want more government control more government services a larger government ,
then you are a Democrat or socialist.

@Casey07

Bernie is not a cult a personality because you say so?

Fascism is loosely defined as a state that uses propaganda and force of violence in order to exact its agenda.

Both dems and repubs bomb, invade and torture. They both weaponize the courts and police forces and break their own rules to the detriment of freedom.

The US is clearly fascist.

@m16566

The only difference is their stupid rhetoric. The democrats just admit that they want a huge welfare/warfare state. The repubs just lie and act like the want small govt. Clearly they don't.

Name the republican that shrunk govt in any meaningful way.

Don't worry. I will wait.

it's not a matter necessarily shrinking the government.
it is a matter of what areas you want the government involved in, do you want the government to fix prices?
have Supply quotas?
involve itself in central planning of agriculture and Industry.?
what industries are you willing to turn over to the government?
I believe the next industry the social Democrats will attempt to control will be the energy sector under the guise of the green New Deal

@m16566

Yes it is a matter of shrinking govt. Nice try on side stepping the question.

Have you never heard the term small govt republican? Of course its a misnomer.

I don't want govt controlling or involved in anything.

@BryanLV "I don't want govt controlling or involved in anything."

No laws? No president? No representatives? No military? No states? No counties? No judge?. No juries? No votes? Really?

@greyeyed123

No one has a moral right to be immoral. Anarchism means no rulers, not no rules. Govt has a monopoly on forceful aggression.

Voting is violence in a non-voluntary society. I do not need to be represented. There is no need for a head chimp.

Govt was kind of a good idea 200 years ago.

States and countries are just legal fictions. All you have to do is look at a photo of Earth from space to realize states and countries are not real. There are no border lines on Earth, they are concocted by humans.

We are all a part of the same human species under natural laws of the cosmos.

@BryanLV Good luck with that.

@greyeyed123

Good luck with "democracy".

@BryanLV Thank you.

@BryanLV You are mistaken. Fascism is a particular sort of evil. with your definition Red China is a fascist state. But nobody calls it that because it's not.

@Casey07 No such thing as Evil, but yes. China is also a Fascist state.

No brainer.

@BryanLV You are the only one who thinks so. Don't take my word for it, just Google "fascist governments" and learn. Brainer....No such thing as evil...Huh?

@Casey07 Try googling "fascism", socialism, capitalism, communisn, anarchism. They all have specific criteria that's not hard to determine.

And no. There's no such thing as evil. It's an abstract term with no referrent.

@BryanLV The very first fascist government was Mussolini's Italy. If you Google Fascist governments you will see a list of every fascist government ever...There is a word for an agenda that seeks to hurt,injure, victimize, cause pain, inflict genocide, etc What word would you use to describe such an agenda.. Or do you deny thses things happen.

@Casey07 Reading more history might help.

@BryanLV try reading a dictionary too. At least you concede my point re evil.

@Casey07

EVIL

1. profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.

IAbstract. No physical referrent. Nothing has been conceded. Try again.

So true! I think Americans really want socialism but they have this misconstrued idea that socialism equals communism. It was all brought about in the McCarthy era.

will you define socialism and communism for me please
I suggest the only difference between communism and socialism is,
socialism allows some private ownership of the means of production.
communism does not allow any ownership of the means of production by the private sector.
clearly I accept that we do have a mixed capitalist system in this country now it's just a matter how much socialism you want to put in the mix

will you give me an example of an existing socialist State today, that can be considered successful.

@m16566 most European countries are socialist

The United Kingdom is a western style democracy operating under a free market economic system. The UK has many similarities to the Social Democracies of the EU but in many ways the UK is economically more conservative. ... This same conservative movement has been skeptical of the European Union.

ermany has a mixed economy. It allows a free market economy in consumer goods and business services. But the government imposes regulations even in those areas to protect its citizens. Germany has a command economy in defense since everyone receives the benefit, while those with higher incomes pay more in taxes.Dec 21, 2018

Yes he did.

@Casey07 Obviously you evidently equate Socialism with Communism.

@jlynn37 Not really. Communism is unworkable, evidenced by the fact that it takes a totalitarian dictatorship to hold power. Socialism, administered by a democratic republic is by far the most humane of systems. That is when you consider the alternatives. Do you know of any or are you just a critic.

@Casey07 I am only responding to your comment "Yes he did."

It was the National socialist workers party! It had noting to do with socialism unless you count the genocide they committed as a-socialist act an horrid ethnic cleansing campaign!

@of-the-mountain yes, you are correct.

will you give me an example of an existing socialist State today, that can be considered successful.

@m16566
Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden!

Sweden is losing it battle with the left trying too hard to please everyone, it has diminished their proven institutions!

@of-the-mountain

Sounds more like communism to me.but then I think many Americans are confused as to which is which.

thanks for making those definition so clear, it is my opinion that the vast majority of people lack sufficient education as to the politics and economics.
I believe that the Social Democratic wing of the Democratic Party does not get beyond the idea of getting free stuff from the government.
socialism work so long as you don't run out of other people's money.
I believe that they think there's in an aqueous group of rich people, who will willingly give over their wealth to the state.
everywhere that socialism has been tried has resulted in poverty and wasted resources.

@m16566 Oh, you mean like in Scandinavia where they have universal health care, the best schools in the world, clean environment, social programs for criminal rehabilitation, cooperative food production, good roads, affordable electricity and water, clean air and water, paid leave and vacation, and free child care, etc. Wow, I'd be heartbroken if I had all of that.

The Nordic model combines features of capitalism, such as a market economy and economic efficiency, with social benefits, such as state pensions and income distribution. This model is most commonly associated with the countries of Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, and Iceland.Jun 21, 2018

is a market economy

@AnonySchmoose Simplest way to find out whether a country is Socialist, go to Google and type "(name of country" ETF". If you get no results, that country is likely Socialist. If you do get results, that means the corporations of that country are owned by private individuals, and you can buy a share of the corporations in that country.

@m16566 Scandinavian countries are examples of socialist democracies ... which America could do well by emulating. But the bulk of American politicians don't want good conditions for everyone ... only good for the 1%. Socialism in a democracy is not communism. The longer Americans conflate socialism and communism, the longer life for the 99% remains horrible and unfair. Tragically, many Americans love to confuse other Americans by equating socialism with communism. I feel such Americans are frauds.

How much money do I need to have to be in the 1%
do you know, then tell me the economy is good for me.
all my life I've been well employed and earned while in my investments have paid me well what does it take to make me a one percenter

A fascist is a follower of a political philosophy characterized by authoritarian views and a strong central government — and no tolerance for opposing opinions. Fascisttraces to the Italian word fascio, meaning "group, bundle." Under fascist rule, the emphasis is on the group — the nation — with few individual rights.
The United States does not meet this definition.

The Bill of Rights is the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution. It spells out Americans' rights in relation to their government. It guarantees civil rightsand liberties to the individual—like freedom of speech, press, and religion.Oct 12, 2016

why is the United States a fascist state?

please explain to this old man the difference between socialism and communis.
Karl Marx said that socialism was a transition to Communism.
it's just a matter of degree, how much State Control over the means of production can you tolerate. I think you're just regurgitating buzzwords

@AnonySchmoose Hear! Hear! Well said and I agree completely!