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We in the US seem to be having a bitter fight over the issue of the separation of church and state, with the evil forces of evangelicalism said by some to be gradually infiltrating and taking over the government. People are constantly pointing to the more enlightened countries of Northern Europe as models for emulation in all areas: welfare, education, religion, etc.

Yet those very countries have government endorsed religions, supported with public funds. For example, in Norway the official religion is Evangelical Lutheranism. England has an official religion, and in fact, the monarch is also the official head of the Church of England. Presbyterianism is the official Church of Scotland.

Germany has no official religion, yet, from Wikipedia:

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

“Religious communities that are of sufficient size and stability and are loyal to the constitution can be recognised as Körperschaften öffentlichen Rechtes (statutory corporations). This gives them certain privileges, for example being able to give religious instruction in state schools (as enshrined in the German constitution, though some states are exempt from this) and having membership fees collected (for a fee) by the German revenue department as "church tax": a surcharge of between 8 and 9% of the income tax. The status mainly applies to the Roman Catholic Church, the mainline Evangelical Church in Germany, a number of free churches, and Jewish communities. There has been much discussion about allowing other religious groups like Muslims into this system as well.[38]

In 2018, representatives from Lower Saxony, Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg and Bremen have concluded a decision has to be made by their state parliaments on whether to make Reformation Day a permanent official holiday.[39] This initiative began after an all-German 500th Reformation anniversary in 2017 and also due to the fact that the northern German states have significantly fewer holidays than the southern ones. In 2018, Hamburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Bremen and Lower Saxony adopted resolutions making it an official holiday.” Clearly Germans do not strive for an absolutely religion-free government.

It seems that large numbers of countries around the world have official state religions, yet in most of those places alternative religions flourish and there is no bitter wrangling over the separation of church and state.

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Are we Americans hypersensitive about this issue for some reason?

WilliamFleming 8 June 25
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17 comments

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1

" "church tax": a surcharge of between 8 and 9% of the income tax."

Churches don't pay taxes in the USA. They are a billion dollar, tax exempt industry. If they want to influence politics, they shouldn't be tax exempt.

Also, which church? Who's god?

The tax is collected by the government from church members and paid to the church I believe.

I am not advocating any such scheme here, nor do I propose that we have an official religion. Our system is working well, despite cries that churches are taking over government.

1

ALL countries in which the dominant religions are fundamentalistic have governments which are ruled by that dominant religious dogma. And, we still have countries struggling to establish and main democracies, like the USA, in which substantial fundamentalic or evangelical sects are engaged in a battle to maintain that democracy against the forces of dogmatic religious demagoguery trying to create theocracies.

2

Government based on religion seems to have the propensity to be more draconian in it's laws. I'm sure there might be some exceptions though.

Yeah, probably no exceptions lol

1

Because our country was borne from religious persecution? And looking at a lot of places that have state-sponsored religion, it looks like a Very Bad Idea. Your benign examples do not in any way illustrate how truly awful it can be......

2

It is the age old question of "Would you rather have them inside the tent pissing out or outside the tent pissing in?" In the UK the church has very little hold or influence on govt. It does have a few guaranteed crossbench MPs in the lords (our senate). They do sometimes argue for things like a reduction of the term when legal abortions can be carried out. This is in response to improving medical technology. More often they will call out the govt on things like reducing welfare payments.
Religious education is compulsory in UK schools but from what I hear its a broad spectrum of different religions. Not one defining one now.

I feel that our students would benefit from that type of religious training. I understand “Comparative Religions” is taught in some schools. I’d like to see also some introductory philosophy taught to high-schoolers.

@WilliamFleming I took comparative religions in school...it was pretty factual and it lessened the appeal of conventional Christian religion for me...but my parents were of the mind that learning and then deciding for oneself was the only way to make anything meaningful...they let us choose and all of us chose different things...I am guessing education does not help as one of my siblings is religious and the other is not...

@thinktwice Sounds like you had great parents.

@WilliamFleming Diversity fosters lots of ideas and is full of compromises...but bottom line, both my American, conservative white father and my Japanese, atheist asian mother wanted the exact same thing...

1

i truly could not care less about religions, churches, or their representatives

1

My 15 years in Germany told me otherwise (maybe it was because I lived in a University Town which was a bit more enlightened). Germany and much of Europe also do not discriminate if you are not a member of so and so religion. The tax is also on one's property and Germans have told me there are a lot of non-believers because of this.

The main problem is that when there is a particular religion there is often a lot of violence. Some of the worst violence is in Moslem countries that constantly fight other sects of the religion.

All this is about is who gets the resources. It is the age old tribal competition for available resources and when things get tight the radicals get violent. Because of the extreme influence and taking of wealth from the 1 percenters and the extra large use of resources this country is not near as rich as others (mainly liberals) make it to be. Our population growth, from all sources, only exacerbates the problem. Future generations will pay the price.

2

Yes we fled from monarchy and religious states existed which controlled people so we decided that neither was for us

bobwjr Level 10 June 25, 2019
5

"said by some" to be infiltrating and taking over? We know they are. They routinely say themselves they are.
We're not hypersensitive and it's not "for some reason". We're being vigilant because we understand what separation of church and state is and because it's necessary.

Can you supply a source that these “they” are planning to take over government? You might find some very tiny minority that would say such a thing but they are outliers with practically no support.

@OwlInASack I clicked on your link. The group appears to be rather small and without much influence.

“In 2019, a coalition of 43 religious and allied organizations, including the National Council of Churches, the Anti-Defamation League, the Hindu American Foundation, and the Center for Inquiry, issued a statement directed at state lawmakers opposing the Project and similar legislative efforts.[11][12]”

Some of the project’s positions might arguably have merit. I do not see where they are advocating for an end to the separation of church and state, or for a takeover of government by religion.

@WilliamFleming every religious right wing that's run for any office big or small states repeatedly how important faith is and eludes to or flat out states to wanting to bring religion "back to" the forefront of government.
I honestly didn't think that needed to be specified because it's not something that's been hidden.

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Religious conservatives have a perfect right to advocate and work toward any law or government policy of their choosing. That’s a long way from trying to take over government.

No one here has presented evidence that religious groups are planning to take over the government. There is one very small group that advocates some sort of theocracy but that group has been roundly condemned by almost everyone. They are of no threat at all.

Pence!

1

Your point? Are you implying people stop complaining about the encroachment of religion within our government, or that we should adopt a national religion. Good points in your discussion, but you failed to state your desired outcome, as it seems you are trying to make a specific point.

t1nick Level 8 June 25, 2019

I fully support the concept of the separation of church and state as enshrined in the constitution. But all it says is that: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof , or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press , or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

My point is that the sky is not falling because our money says “In God we Trust”, nor because a cross is permitted to stand on public land in Maryland, nor because Maryland was named after a Catholic Saint, nor because a Presbyterian Church and school in Alabama is allowed a police force. None of those things are about the establishment of a religion. It is impossible to rid government and the public sector of every trace of religion and to raise hell over every such issue is a waste of time and energy.

If some religious or atheistic group actually tries to usurp power I’ll be there fighting them—with guns if necessary, but for now, go with the flow.

@WilliamFleming

That would be alright if it were that simple. But the cabal that is in office now have shown definite indications of abusing this Constitutional right. Pence and others in the Republican legislature has made comments referring to the desire to make Christianity the official religion of the US. Not that that could occer that easily, but strangers things have happened over the last 2 1/2 years.

Betsy deVos is overtly trying to insert Christian dogma into the national education structure. Southern states has propsed bills to insert mandatory Christian ideals and paradigms into many aspects of the private citizens lives.

So when you say it is a waste of time to complain, I wholeheartedly disagree. Only by being vigilent and complaining can we keep a check on this insidious intrusion into our lives and our government.

@OwlInASack So it’s a conspiracy? Hmm...

The media has converted the word “evangelical” into a slur. What about Catholics? They are calling for abortions, right?

6

The separation of church and state was a great idea that has been under attack by the evangelicals since it was written. They've continued to chip away at it, eroding it by degrees for decades. "In God We Trust" has no business being on our money, swearing on the bible has no business being in our courts, proclaiming one's faith is practically mandatory if one seeks public office, Xian values should not be proposed, advocated, nor made the foundation of our legislation and/or laws and yet, we have ALL of this in a country that was supposedly founded on the idea that church and state should be kept separate.

Clearly something went wrong somewhere.

6

It is also to be noted that in many European countries the state religion often has the weakest hold on people. The reason for both is because, the best way to kill religion, if that is your intention, is to give it state approval. Religion like everything else in the cultural market place has to find a niche product to sell, and it's best is as an alternative to the state, ( perhaps I would say its only real use.). Make it part of the state and not only does it loose that role, and that of giving voice to those down trodden by the state, but it also becomes tainted in peoples minds with every crime and abuse the state commits, as well as its own crimes. Double trouble.

That’s a very good point

3

Yes, the Queen is the head of the Church of England. But her powers over Parliament are vestigial. If she exercised any of them to veto the government's wishes, all hell would break loose. She has no control over the political process in this country and her involvement is entirely ceremonial. I suspect her position with the Church of England is much the same.

It's rare that you even hear a British politician mention religion. I'm not saying it doesn't happen (especially when objections arise to LGBT rights/education and equal marriage) but generally speaking, they're doing themselves no favours when they go down the God-bothering route, and they know it. Invoking the word of God is a great way to not get taken seriously in this country. Meanwhile, there's a politician in Florida claiming that God actually spoke to him and told him to back extreme anti-abortion legislation. (Yes, we have sensible abortion laws, too.)

There's absolutely no question in this country over whether someone's religious views allow them to discriminate against someone else. They don't. Meanwhile, the US is hell bent on introducing 'religious freedom' bills precisely to legitimise that kind of discrimination. That's when they're not too busy trying to make trans women use the men's toilets. (We do have a small but vocal bunch doing similar,but not gaining much traction. Guess where a large chunk of their funding comes from.)

So I think the US has bigger issues with the influence of church over state than the UK does. Much bigger ones.

It is amusing to me that the celebrated physicist, Paul Dirac had trouble getting hired by a university in England because of his atheism, but he got on at Florida State which is right in the middle of Cracker country, in the heart of the so-called Bible Belt. He taught there for many years and is buried there.

A lot of what you hear from the media is nothing but hype.

@WilliamFleming A single, and I suspect somewhat historic example proves nothing about the current situation. As the law currently stands, any employer is free to turn down any potential employee without even giving a reason, but to openly discriminate on grounds of (non-)religion would be illegal in this country at this point.

[citizensadvice.org.uk]

In as little as 2 weeks, we've had one US school kicked out of the Catholic Church for siding with a gay teacher and letting him keep his job, and another one fire the gay teacher so that the school could stay affiliated with the Church. To fire someone because of their sexuality would be illegal here. The Church doesn't have the option of bullying the school into firing the teacher.

@NicoleCadmium “A single, and I suspect somewhat historic example proves nothing about the current situation.”

Please don’t spoil my amusement with unnecessary facts. 🙂

Yep, it really is in Crescendo
Mode for 10 yrs.

3

I suggest that where America is very young compared to Europe it hasn’t had the depth of experience within its collective psyche to discern between ‘not Christian’ and the myriad of different forms that Christianity has taken in Europe. Church and state are not as co-dependant as they are in other parts of the world such as Christo-centric (S America) and Islamic-centric (ME and N Africa) states

My observation is that the American religious fixation is not with religion but evangelical Christianity.

4

I think the "for some reason" is the reason it ended up in our Constitution to begin with.

6

There is no hypersensitivity.
Thomas Jefferson knew that religion had NO place in government, as well as some of the other Founders.
No religion should have any influence on public policy. Anywhere. Ever.

...thanx...

3

'merca is NOT hypersensitive. There should not be a state religion in any government, period. Until some verifiable evidence, facts and/or data is produced to support the existence of any supernatural realm and god(s), all governments should be secular. IMHO

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