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25 14

Its a known fact that history is written by only the winners. If we went to germany and learned their side of ww2 i guarentee itd be different, not saying they were righteous in their genocidal idiology, just making a point.People don't realize this obvious statement. Great example is looking at religion, anything pegan is conceived as devilish and wrong, yet the pegans were some of the most peiceful people in the time before the slaughter.
As an atheist i research all these religious ideologies and, although they originally ment well i suppose, i would have to say that the more power you give a diety the more dumb people get when it comes to it all. There is no logic in any of it. It seems the more science proves the idea wrong, the more bullshit is made up about it all.

Atheistic1 4 Sep 14
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9

We killed a lot more Native Americans than they did Jews, and we stole a lot more land.

And that’s not even counting slavery.

6

I remember the pictures in my Time/Life series on WWII showing the people of some Eastern European countries greeting the Nazis as liberators.

It reminds me somewhat of the initial perceptions of US troops by the population of countries being invaded by us.

We claim we are bringing "democracy," but that is largely inconsequential to the actual agenda.

5

I visit a lot of progressive political sites on FaceBook, and am constantly dismayed by the naivete that so many of my fellow Americans seem to possess. They assume that those who write history will judge fairly, when nothing could be further from the truth. They seem unaware that many of those who own and operate this country are sociopaths. I cringe when I see questions like "how can they sleep at night?" knowing full well that people with no conscience probably sleep just fine. They wonder how some of these obviously unhinged gun nuts would feel if one of their loved ones was shot, over-looking the fact that a lot of these nut jobs are to mentally ill to be capable of sustaining loving relationships. The same goes for rape victims, etc. I know these people mean well, but I just want to urge them to wake up and smell the corruption and madness.

Unfortunately, the naivete is on all sides liberal and conservative. Too many don't want to see themselves as part of any problem (we are all part of some problem somewhere and I just read a piece in "the Atlantic" showing how I too contributed to the loss of much land owned by black farmers in the south. I will post that article. Our species is deeply flawed and we need to understand this fact. thanks for the comment.

5

I take exception to the word "only" in this context, also in calling it a fact. History is written by many people and everyone puts their own spin on it. The Nazi party re-wrote the history of The Great War to justify why they had lost, the South has re-written the history of the Civil War.

4

History has also been written to suit the writers until the truth surfaces.

4

Sorry to disappoint but Germany as of today is a nation of people with a mindset where they acknowledge the horrors inflicted by them and are overtly willing to make up for them. However, I believe it is nations like the US who moulded
people's mindsets into glorifying Hiroshima and Nagasaki than apologize for it.

As an atheist I strongly hold the idea that the burden of proof rests upon the religious to factually substantiate their beliefs rather than me researching to factually disprove it. As simple as if you claim there is an apple and I say otherwise, it rests upon you to prove that the apple exists there and not otherwise.

@Bobby9 And let's not forget the firebombing. No on glorifies that either...because it is totally forgotten.

@greyeyed123 just like what Japan did at Pearl Harbor, the rape of Nanking, the death marches, prison camps and forced prostitution of captured women, no one remembers the context.

@Killtheskyfairy Well, we certainly remember Pearl Harbor. The Bataan Death March is certainly common knowledge. My point is that very few people know about the firebombing of mostly Japanese civilians, comparable if not exceeding the death counts of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. War is dirty and nasty, but I still find it troubling in hindsight.

Most people know the Allies were bombing the shit out of Japan but don’t know about what Japanese did to the conquered civilians of the countries they invaded. War is hell. One shouldn’t start a war if not prepared to suffer the consequences.

@Killtheskyfairy I don't disagree. I find it distasteful that we purposefully targeted civilians in large numbers to demoralize our enemy.

@Killtheskyfairy Good points. To this day Japanese schoolchildren are taught a sanitised version of WWII with little or no mention of their numerous war crimes and with a whitewashing of the Emperor's collusion. History can easily be written by the losers, too.

@Bobby9 Ok. I was only pointing out that I find it distasteful to kill mass civilians in war. If that's controversial...(shrugs).

@Bobby9 Ask yourself this, A) Was the dropping of the A-Bombs on Japan TRULY necessary, or, B) was it Americas way of saying loudly to Russia, etc, " We have this weapon now, see what it CAN do, sit on this ( extended middle finger btw) and rotate,"
And whilst you are considering those questions, think about the utter chaos , fear and terror that those 2 acts brought into everyone's lives since then as well.
Instead of merely wiping out 2 Japanese cities and thousands/millions of civilians ( including here those who are STILL suffering the after effects of radiation btw) COULD NOT America, etc, simply have blockaded Japan and forced them into a surrender?

@Triphid ,
Japan could not have held out for long. they had been cut off from oil & were close to running out.
imo, truman & his band of sociopaths killed all those civilians b/c sociopaths enjoy killing ppl.

@Killtheskyfairy My point here being that Japan acknowledged being wrong and apologised

@Triphid "COULD NOT America, etc, simply have blockaded Japan and forced them into a surrender?" Your theory is just one of many without a link to some proof that was ever considered. I have watched documentaries wherein there was a group of Japanese officers who were attempting a coup to stop the Emperor from surrendering, ever AFTER the bombs had been dropped. Also, consider that a blockade to starve the Japanese into surrender would have increased the death and starvation of the American prisoners of war and the civilian prisoners of war also (note that at the time of the Abombing, the Japanese military was already beginning to execute POW's). It begs the ethical question: Is it better to kill japanese civilians in an atomic blast to save American POW lives? And the answer was yes at that time.

@dahermit In case you were unaware there WAS a little more to the start of the war between the U.S. and Japan. The Emperor was against starting the war with the U.S., it WAS Tojo who pressed for the conflict right from the beginning and Yamamoto who actually decided upon the plan to bomb Pearl Harbour.

@Bobby9 No my friend NOT a Conspiracy Theorist, just one researches as deeply as possible into History, etc.
I actually grew up through the Cold War/Nuclear Threats era, knew about the Brits testing Atomic Weapons in my own country at Maralinga and have had pen friends who WERE children born not long after the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. ONLY 1 of them still lives to this day and still needs treatment for radiation illnesses, the rest, most sadly, passed away from cancers, etc, related clearly to the radiation emitted by those bombs.
So, you are saying here also that whether or not the A bombs were invented and used matters not because the world (people in it) would still have suffered the same trepidations as we did KNOWING that there were NOW weapons that CAN destroy life on this planet?
Were you around and able to realise what it was like to try to live in the 50's, 60's and even the 70's UNDER the ever present shadow of a Nuclear Holocaust, I was?

@Bobby9 Why is that? I'm a 100% Pacifist and Humanist/Humanitarian are you afraid that IF were elected here in Australia I might legislate that Peace is the best thing for the Entire World and that the production of Weapons, Sale, etc, of the same be made Illegal World-wide?

@Bobby9 So you say.

The British Empire said something similar about Mohandas K. Gandhi didn't they?

@Triphid " In case you were unaware there WAS a little more to the start of the war between the U.S. and Japan." Where did I dispute that? Other than that, you may not be aware of "The Tanaka Memorial". [en.wikipedia.org]

@Bobby9 Nope, No Delusions of Grandeur this way, just an ordinary everyday person, sorry to spoil your little party.

@dahermit Are you also aware that Emperor Hirohito actually wrote a poem that expressed his feelings AGAINST Japan going to war with the Americans?

@Triphid I remember a poem written by Hirohito that was written near the end of the war (but before surrender), where in he seemed to want an end to the war. Is that the one you are referring to?
"Starting from the Mukden Incident in 1931, Japan occupied Chinese territories and established puppet governments. Such "aggression was recommended to Hirohito" by his chiefs of staff and prime minister Fumimaro Konoe, and Hirohito never personally objected to any invasion of China.[14] " [en.wikipedia.org] It seems he was NOT anti-war.

@dahermit No, the one Hirohito wrote days before the Pearl Harbour Attack actually, it is quoted in the movie Tora, Tora.
One should try to remember that the Emperor, Hirohito, was, by the early 1940's merely a figurehead for the common masses of Japan and the Military were the ones making the ultimate decisions with the likes of Tojo holding the major power and say.
Now, don't get me wrong here, I am NOT, in any way ,shape nor form, excusing the barbarities, etc, committed by the Japanese forces nor the rest of the 3 main Antagonist Powers in WWII.

@Bobby9 I seems to me that you have no real concept of when someone is a bit of sarcasm towards and that in my usual and average Australian way, is PRECISELY what I meant the comment about spoiling your party.

4

I think you need to study harder at your religious studies! There is absolutely no foundation for your statements about pagan being considered “devilish and wrong’. I suspect you are coming from a post reformation Christo-centric viewpoint. Apart from some zealous early Christians, Constantinian Christianity took local customs and ideas and absorbed them into Christian liturgy and praxis.

If you equate religion with logic you need to study more closely the Systematic Theolgy Of Christianity, debate with students of a Yeshiva, discuss the 8 fold path of Buddhism, at least read The Baghavad Gita.

Unless you are prepared to do these things you are in no position to make judgements upon who or what is ‘dumb’. The dumbest people are those who make uneducated remarks based on stereotypical ideas, conjecture and arrogance,

My statements are valid, the only thing they took from the pegans were the holidays that we celebrate, other then that it was either believe in a 5'6" Arab jew as your savior or die. And the pentagram? Baphomet? Both are concidared to all the Jewish theology (christianity and all the other ones) to be signs of their devil. When the pentagram is the sign of venus and baphomet is her male counter part. I do research anything I can. And buddhism is a path of enlightenment meaning anyone can be a buddha, if we are going with these specifics what about Jainism or any of the others? I don't have to study all 8 paths to know it's all complete nonsense unless they have evidence, it's all the same someone has to be better or superior to everyone else. Its basic psycholgy that if people don't know they make crap up to explain away what they cannot

@Atheistic1 Fair enough. I suggest you review early Christianity further.

Please send me references of your study regarding Baphomet and Venus as it seems like a dubious source. Baphomet is related to the Knights Templar so I am suspecting your sources may be Baigent and Leigh or even something related to The Da Vinci Code.

The 8 fold path is the foundation of a philosophical process. Unless you are to get some understanding of that process, a sweep of the hand dismissal is not an intellectually satisfying way of presenting your findings.

As for Jains, there are two main sects. Why would that be do you think?

3

There is an important point here: most of us hold beliefs that are only credible to people whose preconceptions are the same as ours. To use the Second World War as an example, most people on "our" side have a simplistic view about the rights and wrongs of it. If anyone is interested in looking at that war with a view to examining these preconceptions I strongly recommend Europe at War: No Simple Victory by Norman Davies. It's a genuine attempt to induce the reader to look at familiar events from a different perspective. Well, I like it, anyway.

Senex Level 5 Sep 14, 2019

Another important but long read is "Paris 1919 - six months that changed the world." That world did not end all wars but actually started many wars. However, in the end it is simply our burgeoning population that is the cause of most of our present maladies.

David Irving is the best researcher,so good that his books have been banned,and has been attacked by those who control the narrative,much like this asshole at the BBC...

@Duke1124 Would this be the same David Irving?

The English court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite and racist, who "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence". In addition, the court found that Irving's books had distorted the history of Hitler's role in the Holocaust to depict Hitler in a favourable light.

@Andy4608 His research is sound,he's fighting a very wealthy cabal who can't afford to have the brainwashed ever getting the real story.

@Duke1124 Irving is a crypto-Nazi, antisemitic and racist apologist for Hitler. In Austria he is banned. His pseudo-history of the bombing of Dresden has been so thoroughly discredited that he had to cut his claims of the death toll by over half and even then he is still massively at odds with all the evidence. I'm sorry to see anybody in this forum defending him. He is the very epitome of 'fake news'.

@Duke1124 So you are a holocaust denier?David Irving came to my country in 1988 to defend Ernst Zundel another holocaust denier.We passed laws against saying false historical things and now the right wingers use it against us.They cite Canada's blocking of hate speech by saying we must be hiding something if you need laws to stop ''research'' into holocaust denial.You just can't win against stupidity.Irving has been denounced as a fake historian who has lied in his books.Now I've seen flat earthers,anti-vaxxers and now a holocaust denier on this site.Just goes to show being agnostic does not make people smarter.

3

When I read your post, it doesn’t make me think of Germany as much as the Civil War. The South lost, but they have definitely rewritten history in their favor. Check out the history books they use and it completely changes how that time in history is perceived.

Ever see the X-Files episode "Home" (season 4, episode 2)? It was so controversial it had a disclaimer before it aired, and then it only aired once and was never aired again.

@greyeyed123 never watched any X-Files. What was it about and why was it so controversial?

@Tinocca It's one of those things that loses everything in the retelling. If you have amazon prime, check out season 4, episode 2, "Home". It's very much in line with the Halloween season, imaginative, disgusting, creepy, and pushing WAAAAY back on any glorifying of the Civil War South. It's also generally considered one of the 10 most controversial episodes of television of all time. (I'm still astonished it ever aired at all. But it was a HUGE show on Fox back then, it was an October/Halloween episode, and Fox was the fourth stepchild of the networks...so could get away with a bit more. Well, on that level, at least ONCE they got away with it, with no reruns of that episode.)

3

That's an idea I sometimes push -- 'nobody sees themselves as evil'.

Everyone -- Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, whoever -- they were all working for the 'good' of their countries.

I remember reading an evaluation of Ferdinand Marcos' journal after his death. He considered himself a 'benevolent dictator'. He was popular, a war hero, doing what he had to for the Philippines. It was only others who thought his rule was corrupt.

3

Are you trolling?

@Donotbelieve It reads to my eyes as if the writer is consciously trying to be wrong in as many ways as possible to garner responses.

@Donotbelieve It's possible he posted this from his phone, but his other comments do not have near as many errors in spelling, etc. The weird suggestion that it is "guarenteed" modern Germany's take on Nazi Germany is different than that of the rest of the world is totally, totally bizarre.

@Donotbelieve After reading his comment, that was my first thought. Just another point whore, spewing BS because he knew it would get a lot of comments. I certainly won't read anymore of this person's posts.

Where's the calvary when you need them.

2

But these days Germans who are largely Secular, most of them are extremely embarrassed by World War II, whereas in the the religious South, they are still bigoted and even proud of their heritage.

Look at Auschwitz. It's a memorial. They don't mention the autrocies that happend there. There was an American tourist that went to downtown Berlin doing the heil Hitler. Got the shit kicked out of him in minutes. Most Germans are not proud of WWII. Hell, the last surviving Hitler's changed their name, in hiding, and don't want kids so the Hitler bloodline does not survive.

@TheGreatShadow Actually, all of Auschwitz is a testament to the atrocities committed there.

@FSMGirl [auschwitz.org]

Yes, but they're not extolling the virtues of the Holocaust. Yes it's a memorial... to the victims that were murdered there, and the museum details the atrocities committed by the Nazis at the same time.
Check out the history page: [auschwitz.org]

2

To specify, I was using the nazi party as a metaphor, not as actual fact. I have German friends as well and they too see it as a blight on human history

2

" If we went to germany and learned their side of ww2 i guarentee itd be different..." You are making an assumption. Having had several German foreign exchange students in my class when I was a teacher, they were apparently unforgiving of their ancestors for falling for Nazisum. In fact, they were taken aback at the fact the Americans can actually possess Nazi relics both authentic and reproduction. In sum, they considered Americans to be soft on Nazisum

2

If you've read as many GI memoirs of the war as I have, you'll know that practically none of them were interested in "making the World safe for Democracy". Most went off to war, out of peer pressure, youthful adventureism, or because they got drafted. And their principle driving motivation throughout, was self-preservation. All of which , understandably, seems to be the principle motivations of the common soldier in most wars. One is also struck by their seeming incessant hunts for "booze, food, and dames" (which also is a prevalent instinct in war). Bill Maudlin's "Willie n Joe" cartoons are more of an accurate depiction of the WWII GI, than are the characters in "Saving Private Ryan".

I would also guess that many, after ,having FDR and the New Deal save millions from destitution, would have followed him anywhere.

2

People don't realize? Oh are you the only one? Plenty of people realize. And by the way, some villains do not consider themselves good guys. They just think good guys are dumb. Generalizations are generally wrong.

g

2

I hate that "history is written by the winners" trope. Usually it's used to excuse Nazi Germany and it's not even true otherwise we'd be reading Russian histories of WWII, Vietnamese histories of the conflict there and Mongol accounts of their own empire.

I don't find that to be true at all & kinda find it concerning in what circles you are in that people are "usually" excusing Nazi Germany.
That from what I have always noticed has been used to explain the fantastical parables of Greeks history, the dehumanization of national oppressed by empires like Roman & British, & most common as a way of calling out American justification of war crimes.

Oh & of course by Southern Americans referencing the Civil War

@gNappyHead What circles? Well this is one, and you may be familiar with the internet.

@Gareth Even in the darkest parts of the alt-right inter-webs I haven't seen an exorbitant amount of excusing Nazi Germany! I mean . . . . holy shit!
Perhaps I am just naively innocent & thank the god I don't believe in that I am! Who knew I would find faith on an atheist site?!? Lol

@gNappyHead Sounds like you've gone to some darker places than me, but you don't have to delve very far into history channels to find holocaust deniers.

@Gareth Lol Well I was being a bit hyperbolic about the "darkest of inter-webs". Now I'm not going to lie & say that I haven't come across a couple here & there that do exist, but they seem far & few between. They sound paranoid schizophrenic & have become ostracized from their communities.

Now I was just talking to a friend of mine about this & he said that appearently there are actually some legitimate people I of power that can be found in places in the Middle East like Turkey & Iran that believe that . . . . ????? But I'm just repeating. I will have to throw up my flag of ignorance on this one.

I feel like I'm about to find out some shit that I wish wasn't real & never wanted to know . . . . Damnit! 😧

@JesseThompson I never heard of Operation Paperclip before. Have heard of the American financial ties especially at the beginning of the war, not sure if that continued as the war progressed? There will always be this corrupting influence of money and power that needs to be fought against. I suspect now in the US this corruption is just getting worse and worse.

2

Have a read of All Quiet On The Western Front. German frontline view if WW1. It is brilliant!

1

This is the bias of the survivor, we only listen the history and get the data of who survive, and in general only the winners survive.

But your example of German was a bad one, there is no other people that rejects more the ideologies that lead to Nazism than Germany.
The different view is that in USA you view yourself as the super heroes that won the war alone, while in Europe they know that the war was a group effort and the invasion of Europe was more a race against URSS for the control of territory after war than something needed to win the war.
There were already 2 fronts in europe, in the west and in Italy, both progressig fat, but the Italian path had the Alps in the middle, so the western allies needed a faster road to Berlin or they would loose the race.

in the EAST and Italy
Both progressing fast

1

As one with a degree in European History I agree. I have a small set of books written by a German on the history of N and S America Geschichte Americas (1600-1870) by Otto Zierer and it is different from such books written in English. Histories are written by losers but they have their own interpretation. My uncle fought in the Wehrmacht 4 years in Russia and then 5 years in a Siberian Gulag and he wrote a book which I have. It places no blame but is simply about fighting and surviving. Recently a new interpretation "To The Last Salute" by Von Trapp's grandaughter Elizabeth M. Campbell was published. Again simply a U-Boot's log. I was living in Germany when the film series "The Holocaust" came out [en.wikipedia.org]. I remember many German youth were upset with the series and thought it was Hollywood's way of making the Germans look bad. Unfortunately, this part of history was not talked about which turned out to be a mistake. Even here some places have problems dealing with our genocidal and enslaving past. Things are improving and history is becoming more open to different sides. I have a small library on books about WWI and each one has a different interpretation.

1

Napoleon coined that idea (and phrase) but it wasn't meant literally, rather sarcastic. History is usually written by revisionists. Especially in America.

Anne Frank, Edward Snowden and slews of others in between have written their truth, as "losers."

There are over 14,760 Google links associated with "history written by losers."

1

Your post could have been worded more clearly, but I understand your point and I agree: history is consistently written by the victors and has their spin on it. The losers also write their versions in some instances, as well, and the reader (after the fact) has to determine who is right and what the biases are.

Julius Caesar reported aspects about the Celts that gave them a bad reputation for centuries. Europeans committed genocide and declared natives from Africa to America as bloodthirsty savages--but what should be call the Europeans who slaughtered people who fought back with bows and arrows? The Japanese blame the US for our involvement in the war against them when they struck the first blow at Pearl Harbor. The Egyptians claimed victory in battle regardless of the outcome.

Decades ago, I read a science fiction novel with an "alternative history" (not the same as "alternative facts" ) in which the Nazis won WW II--it was fascinating. Two decade later, the Nazis in the novel were trying to whitewash the Holocaust and say it never happened.

I wonder if the book was by Daniel Quinn [goodreads.com] I also read that book. Interesting perspective.

@JackPedigo I don't think that was the one. It looks to have been published in 2001 and I read the other well before that. From reading the summary, it sounds as if this one was far in the future, but the one I read is taking place in the 1960s--when Kennedy was president. Joe Kennedy, not JFK!

@Gwendolyn2018 I wonder how many books were written with that idea. I once read a book written by a German woman who spoke on the idea that females were the dominant species. Interesting and some paternalistic ideas were upended. Women were not required to wear bras but men had to wear Jock Straps. In this book when a woman raped a man the man was responsible for the child's upbringing and son and on and on.

@JackPedigo As a nearly lifelong sci-fi fan, I have read several books with the theme of alternate history. One was what if the dinosaurs had not become extinct--I think Robert Silverberg wrote it (and there might have been two books) but I am not sure. Another was the books on Alvin the Maker by Orson Scott Card. Card might be a Mormon, but he has an interesting take on "things." I would like to read the one you mention.

@Gwendolyn2018 I would also like to re-read it. Unfortunately, the copy I had, had no cover and, at the time. it was just a curiosity. When we returned to the US I had to purge my books and it went. Also, it was in German. I do still remember some of the basic ideas, though. Perhaps one of our German members, like GermanGirl, will know of it or be able to track it down.

@JackPedigo Perhaps!

1

I appreciate your post. I've had a habit of studying WWII all my life. I wonder why it fascinates me so much.

Any way, one of the things I find interesting is the claimed "cause" was to fight Germany's racism and cruelty, especially toward the Jews. .... What is interesting about that is the majority of people I met that fought as soldiers in that war, were risking their lives for "God, Country and Freedom", beyond that, they were almost unified in their intense racism toward any one non-white and even some whites.

So it would seem to me there was what I call "cause distortion" even here. Obstensibly we were fighting racism, but the soldiers went to war for the sake of "God, Country, and Freedom" whatever they interpreted that to be. Then they would come home and be racist SOB's.

Go Figure!! I don't see any rationality in it at all, except for the possibility there is some nefarious intelligence who manipulates these messages.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn there were other economic, political and military reasons for the war that aren't generally known.

There were many instances of black soldiers, in uniform, being beaten in the south

0

Is this is why, when I look for books or movies about the Vietnamese War, I can only find stuff by Vietnamese authors and directors?

Gareth Level 7 July 12, 2020

You are probably not looking in a bookshop in Hanoi.

0

No shit delusional

bobwjr Level 10 Sep 15, 2019
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