What she said. Furthermore, this is how it goes when you put yourself out there. You invite scrutiny. Here's a whole bunch of scrutiny for you.

It's all science? Through science we know that when we die our atoms and energy continue on, taking different forms and thus allowing other life to exist. That which gave me form will feed bacteria, bugs, grasses, plants, animals etc.

There is no scientific evidence that our consciousness continues on and no reason for me to think, or believe, it does. I do not find this morose or scary--I find it beautiful and comforting. Do I wish our lives were longer than they are? Absolutely! But, I have no desire to have an eternal consciousness.

@Joanne well like it or not you're not going anywhere. this body will fall away and awareness will still exist. can't be avoided.

@JeffMesser : Please provide me evidence for this. Without evidence, it is merely a belief, a hope, and is no different from believing in a god.

@Joanne you don't keep up with modern physics apparently. breaking down the waveform in the double slit experiment proves awareness exists. until we learn to measure something without mass, like light, then we won't know how to measure it. much like gravity can't be measured in the quantum world, you can't measure time differential effects in static time. so you're going to remain just as clueless as the royal were to Galileo if that's your standard.

@JeffMesser That's not evidence, that's still just your opinion, peppered with some passive aggressive insults. Which equals blind faith, just like religions.

@LisaFultonave nope. it's my understanding that I know the end so the middle is expected. just because you have no beliefs doesn't mean you have no faith in anything. you guys are confused. make sure to tell everyone that gravity also doesn't exist because they cannot measure its' force over time. everyone conveniently misses that part of the double slit experiment. it proves conclusively that awareness IS something even if it cannot be measured.

@LisaFultonave he is deathly afraid of death, logic is not going to change his mind!

@AnneWimsey "we don't have any answer so let's talk about him like he isn't here". provide an answer or be quiet and accept the conclusion.

here is your proof:
[chemicool.com]

@Joanne @AnneWimsey @LisaFultonave come on now ladies ... if you expect ME to meet this "provide proof" request you agnostics like to make then make sure to respond when it is provided. Please provide your explanation of why the potential and kinetic energy are different in Schrodinger's balancing equation. We know that the difference between the 2 is our own observation so please explain how the waveform broke down if awareness is "nothing". Where is the cat ladies? Where is the cat? Who took it? where did it go?? We know SOMETHING made it disappear. Why don't you speculate a narrative that describes where it is?? Or maybe your limited grasp of testing measures causes your logic to unravel and disappear?? If there's NO MASS to alter for differential of measurement then we have no possible way to measure it even if we know it exists. Fess up ladies.

@JeffMesser it's YOUR "understanding". Which makes it your personal opinion, not validated scientific fact. It's only your personal conjecture based upon things you've read/seen/heard and internalized and there's nothing wrong with that, it's fine, and I'm happy for you.

BUT...your opinion is neither fact nor evidence. It's still perfectly acceptable for you, but it does NOT give you the right to insult or disparage anyone who doesn't consider your personal understanding or opinion as enough viable proof to agree with you.

If the only debate technique you can resort to is insulting others and being rude, I might caution you to bow out now before some of the serious philosophers in this group weigh in.

@LisaFultonave you guys smugly offer up your "provide proof" and I did. the double slit experiment proves awareness is a change agent. So it IS something. Your inability to grasp that is your undoing. subjective awareness causes wave breakdown. please explain how nothing caused something. absent an answer then you should just be quiet and listen to others who are more knowledgeable than yourself.

@JeffMesser I'm not agnostic I'm athiest.

@JeffMesser it proves it to you. Not to everyone. I'm not being smug, and you are incredibly rude. I know better than to mud wrestle a pig. I'll just get covered in mud, while the pig enjoys it. Go enjoy yourself.

@JohnnyQB yes it does. it proves awareness exists independent of any mass. the awareness that we provide by observation to the quantum world. We are awareness.

@JohnnyQB is that supposed to be your method to belittle and humiliate me? your lashing out? thats fine, just answer the question.

@JohnnyQB you keep thinking the earth is flat since that provides you with security. the waveform collapse means awareness is something independent of mass. argue all you want but the experiment is verifiable and predictable so it's not just "Jeff from Oklahoma". It's science. just because your personally held narrative doesn't accommodate it doesn't make it all a "big conspiracy". It means YOU don't understand the universe and your narrative is faulty. if you can't get past your own close-mindedness to figure it out then its' you with the problem, not me.

@JohnnyQB quit typing 40 fucking comments and read something. I answered it above jackass.

@JohnnyQB your ridicule isn't an answer. it shows your ignorance and close-mindedness. try again or shut up.

@JeffMesserugly-mouth Pot calling the kettle black!? We have been Very polite, You are the one going all postal in your replies. Your fear of death is palpable, and pathetic. I have actually died, twice,and it was fine, nice & peaceful.

@AnneWimsey I'm not scared of dying at all and have suffered 2 heart attacks and 1 death. I have the scars to prove it if you'd like. I happen to have the answer to all the crap about "the light" and thinking their family is there. Plus the answer to psychic crap at the same time. you suffer on with your myopic, limited narrative and be ignorant of the universe. you're all going to the same place I am anyway.

@JeffMesser ummmm, no, nobody is going anywhere....when it's over it's over.
Sorry about the heart attacks etc...it does explain why you are so frightened

@AnneWimsey you just keep telling yourself that and living in ignorance.

@JeffMesser NOTHING you have said shows, or proves ,that that we maintain our consciousness/awareness after death. You very much remind me of religious people who claim to have proof when they really don't. And, like them, you seem to think you "know" something that those who disagree with you cannot understand--making you somehow special.

I know of NO science that claims to "KNOW" that our consciousness survives our death. If you want to have this "BELIEF" go for it. But, don't put others down because you cannot provide adequate proof for your belief.

And, your condescending attitude along with your "come on now ladies" remark---how far do you think that will get you?

@Joanne I'd suggest you read Rupert Sheldrake's "Science Set Free" (that's the American title. It has other titles elsewhere). Until you understand the different standards upon which modern paradigms have been established you won't understand when we are forced to look past them.

Sometimes there is no direct evidence of something due to its' very nature. Most of our direct measurement processes involve measuring a unit of mass from one time to the next. When that changes then we make assumptions about the changes based on our currently held paradigms or accepted theories of how the world works. Some things don't lend themselves well to such measurement for a variety of reasons ... especially PASSIVE systems. So here you have a phenomenon involving no mass in a passive system that only accepts information. How do you measure that?

We know from the double slit that awareness exists because it's a change agent. It changes the waveform. So while we can't articulate the cause ... we can start listing attributes and compare them to other known phenomenon. We know awareness is generally passive (psychics and telekinesis notwithstanding), it has no mass, it exists, and at its most base level it is the receipt of information or knowledge. What else exhibits these traits? Light.

So it's a phenomenon that has similar traits to light huh? But I can't see it. Well, you can't see most light either. Light isn't just that thing you see. It's electromagnetic wave propagation emanating at a frequency with a wavelength and amplitude that we can register with our immediate senses. There are other EM waves outside our senses that we know exist as well. If we cannot sense it and it has no mass then how do we know it exists? From its' effects. Just like red shift and other means we use for astronomy - we rely on those traits and effects to speculate about it and look for causation. But we know it exists and we know it shares other traits with EM waves ... does it share lights' other traits?

Just as with flat earth arguments (which STILL exist) and solar-centrism and materialism you hafta speculate, apply, and subject the new narratives to criticism. You don't simply say "it has no measure of proof that we currently accept" because that's the whole point.

Now if you wish to argue the traits and theoretical physics then by all means engage. But for people on this site to just flippantly say "you have no proof" is not just myopic, but it's also ignorant and destructive. Go learn something instead of sitting in a chair, reading the internet, and blindly saying "no proof" when you don't even understand what proof is possible.

I'm reading through this and I notice you leave out a key finding in the double slit experiment. You seem to address what happens when we observe only one slit (i.e. we see the light particle go through there). What happens to a first photon when you observe a second photon while using a method to ensure we observe randomly? Spoiler, by observing the second photon, the wave interference pattern is disrupted. This could show that observations in the relative future affect the relative past (time flows backwards). This would seem to violate the speed of light limit in relativity. So we are not sure what and how this means anything based on our current understanding. What it does show is that it is not about consciousness of individual photons (or other even large mass objects like atoms). It shows we don't know what's going on and we need to keep digging. We DO know that objects behave differently on the quantum level than the macro (think of you and me and all the stuff we can see without aid as an example). Knowing that, we don't have any real reason to believe that consciousness as we observe it on the macro level is or can be anything like consciousness on the quantum level. The data is not there, any speculation that it is is just that, speculation. You would have to show a similarity of behaviour between the macro and quantum levels before we could postulate that something like consciousness carries on through individual carriers similar to things like photons (or even some other quantum particle). That is where your "proof" breaks down, changing between what we know about the different "levels" of matter. Yes, I know that "level" is a loose term, but it is generally understandable as a way to differentiate the ideas being described with reasonable accuracy to the common person.

@PadraicM well, we KNOW that our observation causes the collapse. we also know that neither an artificial limb nor a piece of meat cause it. I agree with Peter Russell - the only point of transmission is where any actual work occurs so the "invitation" is instant since light has no mass. so the only transfer is there. to light the trip was instantaneous. but by our perceptions it's just part of the mental ratio our mind makes to convert the sensory perception to the world we create in our heads. When this came to me during meditation my mind said "DUH! we left the speed of light as a constant. no matter how fast you're going relative to it." So that speed limit is in our construct, not the actual reality. The potential is immediate. That's how quantum entanglement works as well.

@JeffMesser so the various detectors we use are more like an organic "eye+brain" than an artificial limb? The speed of light is not a constant, it depends on the medium of transmission. You still don't really bring any proof, just "I thought of this" elements. While philosophy is all well and good, you seem to miss that people are asking you to provide proof that can be tested, repeated, and verified to the table. Until you do, you have not met the burden of proof to overturn the current theories.

@PadraicM no, the speed of light IS a constant. thats the unique rub.

@PadraicM all of the supposition, including what you were trying to say, is based upon conservation of energy equations that considered the problems as closed systems thus in=out as long as you know all the factors. But light keeps ending up being the same speed no matter what. The only possible solution is light is independent or already there in a "separate system". Outside of our methods of measurement. our methods are active measurement - we try to create a closed system and measure changes in mass. but light has NO mass so it defies our active methods.

Brilliant ..wow… What gives me hope for humanity is when I’m as shocked and impressed with one of it’s honest participants as I am right now. Yes, brilliant ~

Best line:
"It takes a lot of courage and responsibility to be rationale and non-religious. It's not for the faint of heart."
Well said!

Yes. Yes, we do.

I prefer Mark Twain's definition of faith. Trust is earned by proven reliability. Faith is believing without proof, and even in spite of contradictory evidence. As Mr. Clemens said “Faith is believing what you know ain't so.”