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God is not necessary for religion. Oddly enough it is true.

While the definition can mean a belief in a higher power said diety does not have to exist for said belief.

So god does not have to exist for people to believe in a god. Religion is a set of rites , rituals, practices, ceremonies sometimes with "sacred writings".

So lets say that religions did worship real gods and somehow those gods disappeared. The religious ceromonies would go on unobstructed. What would change due to said gods abscence? Since all gods are undetectable nothing would change at all. The religions would go on just like today worshiping gods that did not exist.

The existance of gods have very little to do with the religious practice associated with them. So the purpose of religion has nothing to do with gods and has everything to do with humankind.

What are your thoughts on this?

DavidLaDeau 8 Jan 12
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22 comments

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7

You care too much about things that are false. Yes both gods and religions have existed only to eventually disappear, I don't see nowadays a church for Osiris or Mithra for example, and eventually current religions will disappear as knowledge and science continue advancing. For many like me, both are non issues and would rather not dedicate time to ponder about useless things.

There are a few reasons that I care deeply about what is real and not real.
I was indoctrinated into a religion that taught me to live by what was not real.
The attached video will explain about my narcalepsy. My type causes me to hallucinate every day. I personally struggle with what is real and not real. I often have memories that never happened.

I was married to a narcisist for 20 years, that told lies constantly so I did not know what stories were real or not.

I need to know what is real as I am forced to live in a real world. If I make choices based on what is not real it can be damaging to myself and others.

@DavidLaDeau i feel for you, narcolepsy and hallucinations are nothing to sneeze about, but so is compulsive obsession, I am not a therapist but maybe it's time to get one and stop the religious mania that you admittedly have.

@Mofo1953 it is not compulaise or mania. Is wrong to want to live in reality? Is it wrong to want to help others to live in reality? Look up compulsive and mania as I did. I am neither. To have a passion about living life in reality is not a mental disorder, living life in a delusion is. I do hate religion as it is harmful. This does not mean that I have mental problems.

You are literally suggesting that I have mental problems for wanting to live in reality. You owe me an apology.

@DavidLaDeau good point, we’re all on different journeys and at different stages. I was going to add ‘ of growth’, but who really knows

@DavidLaDeau never said the reality thing, but you say yourself "I personally struggle with what is real and not real. I often have memories that never happened." Does this not sound like some kind of mental disorder? Listen, I apologize when I am wrong, but what is one to think when you yourself can't tell reality from hallucinations? I did not say that, you did. Again, I would suggest you look for some kind of therapy, and this is not to insult you or otherwise, just a suggestion for your wellness.

@VictoriaNotes busybody!

@Omnedon seems you haven't read my comments.

@Omnedon, @VictoriaNotes ditto!

@Omnedon only from busybody and you, who have religious or spiritual bias, I attacked no one, unlike busybody, read without bias and prejudice, none of my posts are attacks, but if you and busybody think so, maybe you're being too touchy feely. I obviously don't care about religions or gods, this is after all, a site for non believers, and I will continue commenting because that is the purpose of this site, open to all opinions and not just rubber stamping, if you can't stand dissent, go work for a totalitarian dictator like Trump.

@Omnedon i disagree with your opinion, never thought to suggest therapy was insulting, especially when a person admits to have hallucinations and can't tell what is real or not. What do you have against therapists and getting well to say that is insulting? Is that a personal attack? The religious mania was admitted by him when he said "I was indoctrinated into a religion that taught me to live by what was not real." Again, read without bias and we will talk.

@Omnedon I explained why I didn't owe one. Just because you ask for one doesn't mean ir is correct. Point in case, I think you owe me an apology. Does this mean there is a problem with what you said? Read again. Ah, the busybody is not an attack when you truly are a busybody.

@Mofo1953, @VictoriaNotes I am honored.

@VictoriaNotes, @Mofo1953 It seems that he in fact did or he would not have responded. It also appears that he did understand your comments. There is mucch moremtonlife than just being right. If one is always right there is no way to learn.

@VictoriaNotes, @Mofo1953 You suggested I needed mental help for thinking it is important to understand what is real, not for having a sleep disorder. You are abrasive and wish to stir the pot rather than foster understanding.

@DavidLaDeau yes, to not know what is real or not is delusion, but it is up to you, the first step to getting well from mental issues is to acknowledge them, I don't really care if you want to or not. But don't call my suggestions attacks, I am truly concerned about people who can't tell what is real or not. And it is true that sometimes, not always, I am abrasive, but I am not here to foster understanding of anything, I don't feel qualified for that, I leave that to those who love to sing kumbaya. But I recall that you yourself said in a different post " I am on this site to provoke thought." So why should you be the only one? Sure, when people want to only be in the safe zone, any dissenting opinion is viewed as attacks or being abrasive, sorry but dissension is not attack and usually when one hears something they don't want to hear it's so easy to call foul, reminds me of the believers when faced with facts that prove the many stupid things in their religions, immediately go to: don't be disrespectful, don't offend my beliefs, etcetera. Ain't buying it dude.

5

I think you are really onto something here and for those who do not understand it you have just explained Deism very well. Deists did not have science as we do today and like others they needed and wanted answers. Their god created everything and set it in motion, then disappeared. This is because they knew from the beginning that there was no god there to interact with. It makes them much smarter than others today in my opinion.

Cut to "2001: A Space Odyssey." Suppose that HAL the computer had no name. The film would not have made as much sense and would not have been as interesting. If I put this back into religion I can see why people would want a personal god. You cannot prove him in any way but the story becomes more interesting and maybe your religion has features that another one does not. This is why there are so many religious claims in the world. It is your invisible man who provides all the answers. To be in control you have to have all the answers.

5

Frankly, the best commentary on religion is the book “Small Gods” by Terry Pratchett. The premise is that belief creates the god. The stronger the belief, the stronger the god.

4

Religion and the belief in the supernatural is a holdover from primitive times when primitive men were afraid of things they could not control so sought some means to control them. Nature, fire, lightning, disease, all were beyond their understanding so they created beings/spirits/gods the could entreaty for help in dealing with them. It was a defense mechanism that persists to this day, mostly because groups of people have profited from these illogical and factually unsupportable belief systems.

4

All religions are total system ideologies. They purport to include and explain everything. They form cults of total believers who form extraordinarily cohesive groups who commit themselves to the dogma so totally that they are, in effect, "selling their entire being." to the cause." Christianity , Judaism, all Moslem sects, and communism are all total system ideologies. Hitler aspired to make Nazism a total system ideology.

3

I like Douglas Adam`s humorous take on this. If someone believes in a deity then it exists. Just because people stop believing in a deity does not mean that it ceases to exist. Hence You have Thor trying to get a flight back to Sweden at Heathrow airport and the guilt monster that lives in an uncleaned fridge

42

3

"God is not necessary for religion. Oddly enough it is true."

I do not know why anyone would think it is odd. The word "religion," according to Oxford, has 3 primary meanings. Only one of them states anything about a deity.

"So lets say that religions did worship real gods and somehow those gods disappeared. The religious ceromonies would go on unobstructed."

The first sentence does not guarantee the second. Maybe the ceremonies would go on, and maybe they wouldn't. But what you're supposing in these statements is pretty outlandish either way, even for the sake of argument.

Being that gods do not openly communicate with everyone or maybe anyone if they did not exist at all how would anyone know? There is no reason to think that religious cerimonies would not continue without missing a beat.

@DavidLaDeau Right, that's sort of my point. It's the notion of "real" gods supposedly "disappearing" that makes the statement absurd. We don't have any reason (read: proof) to believe any gods could be real in the first place, and we'd never know if they disappeared without proof they once existed.

@TrekkerLee I then apologize for not making myself clear.

3

Wholly unnecessary, and nothing more than a crutch to avoid dealing with
reality.

2

A god or higher power only has to exist in the mind of the believer for a religion to work.

I think that one can believe in the natural world, natural consequences, human nature, wisdom gleaned from literature, common sense, personal experience, and a vision toward a harmonious future, without really calling it a religion, while also participating in cultural rituals, personal ceremonies and any meaningful traditional interactions with others, creating a feeling of community with our fellow beings and our place in the world.

Having just witnessed close friends escape with their lives (but lose their residences) from the worst fires in Australian recorded history, I was reminded of our arrogance in that we think we can allow any exploitation of nature without consequences (or hold ourselves above any other species sharing this wonderful blue jewel of a planet). Our right wing narrow minded, criminal Prime Minister offered " thoughts & prayers" for the survivors who lost their family members and properties in the inferno. No mention of the other one Billion critters lost or the millions of hectares torched (The Christian God holds human lives much higher in esteem it seems). Primitive religion was and is rooted in fear of the unknown and earthquake, fire and pestilence evolved to become god's vengeance for some misdemeanor. All while we allow influential people to push this garbage to further their self interest, we will not advance as a species and our planet is doomed. Let people keep their ceremonies and religious beliefs but keep sacrosanct, the separation of Church, Mosque & Temple from the business of State:- communities are built on many shared & altruistic things as well as fantastical beliefs. As a committed agnostic, I am aware of thousands of areas that my ignorance embraces - but I believe we are evolving as a refined scientific race that is looking more and more for empirical evidence to let the objective light illuminate the fact and any or all gods are really irrelevant in any given Cosmos.

2

The Buddhists may have it right: the universe, according to them, is in a eternal cycle of birth, expansion, contraction, death, and rebirth.
In other words, the "big bang" has happened an infinite number of times and will continue on and on into eternity.
So according to them, nobody or nothing created it in the first place, and nobody or nothing will ever destroy it, in the final analysis.
They say, when all is said and done, it has ALWAYS been here and it always will be.
It explodes into existence from a microscopic speck, expands until it burns itself out, implodes back into a microscopic speck, and explodes outward again, they say.
No 'god,' no assembly, required.
Unless, of course, EVERYTHING is 'god,' and WE will eventually become 'gods' again, as we have already become on countless worlds here, there, and everywhere, forever and ever, amen.
How's THAT for a line of b--lsh-t a mile long?
Religion is like that.
So be it.

2

If I understand your hypothetical correctly (though I take issue with some of your posits, I believe I get where you are going), then:

Religion, ostensibly, "provides" three things:

    • a reason for things that happen
    • a conduit for making things better
    • comfort that there is essence that survives beyond mortal death

Take away the 'gods' and we have

    • science as a natural explanation of how things work and is always improving
    • stop praying and get working, if things are to get better
    • accept that little bit of time is what we get, so ENJOY it as best as we can

But I don't see this as "religion without god" or anything like that. The rituals go away and the traditions are abandoned. Practiced in fun, maybe, I mean, who doesn't love a ol' pagan maypole dance, amirite?

If one needs metaphysics in their life, go look at a painting or listen to a symphony, let it move them - then pick up a brush or a musical instrument and create for themselves.

2

Quite right. Christianity doesn’t need Jesus. You can take him off the cross at any time and still have the religion.

I would go s far as to say Pauline Christianity didn’t need Jesus until 325CE.

1

Interesting. Never thought of this concept. Thanks.

Thank You I am honored. That is the purpose of my YouTube channel. Link in my bio.

1

It is my suspicion that atheism is on the road to being a religion..... for just this reason..... and a kind of mutual dislike for something can be just as big a rallying point as a mutual belief in something....???

blzjz Level 7 Jan 14, 2020

Kinda many sports fans agree yet there is not a great liklyhood thst they will actually worship their favorite sport.

1

In the UK, Veganism is now legally considered a religious movement and thus, protected as such.

'The Church of the Sacred Organic Cucumber'?...heh...

1

Oh, and I am forced to disagree with your basic premise. Such rituals and practices are not done without purpose. They are intended to offer a message, a plea, or a promise to some force or power, thus a 'god' being, even if it is some personification of nature that is somehow sentient and aware and has the power to make the changes that are sought or the supplicant is showing thanks for. Your own remark about assuming gods did exist refutes that premise.

I did not state that rituals do not have a purpose.

@DavidLaDeau You did say that no god was needed but those rituals' purpose is propitiate some power and show obeisance, beg for favor, or ask for relief of some sort. This negates your primary thesis.

1

There is life - just live it. What if the 'god' said Just be happy everything else is an illusion? Humans would find a way to fuck it up.

If god said just be happy I would know it was Satan and make sure I was unhappy as possible to resist her!

@DavidLaDeau And isn't that just the point can't have one without the other it seems. If there is no god there is no devil.

@silverotter11 My girlfriend is a witch by famliy cultture. She does not believe that there is an objective good or evil, only that anything can be done with good or malicious intent. It is odd to me that we tend to think in terms of good and evil in a spiritual since.

@DavidLaDeau Hell where would we be without good or evil? There'd be NO good western movies!! And where would Bruce Broughton (Silverado), Elmer Bernstein (Magnificent 7) or Ennio Morricone (Good, the Bad and the Ugly) have gotten their inspiration? 🙂

1

The root word for religion is 'religio' and it carries the sense of people bound together in a purpose. I came across it first when someone referred to the book Religio Medici. I think it carries a general meaning that became narrowed to community worship. If that's the case, then religion certainly can exist without a god.

1

Do animals and even insects have consciousness?
Yes.
Do they have a written-down set of laws, rituals, etc.?
No.
Are there certain 'natural laws' by which they abide?
Sure.
So do we.
It's like some conservatives think they invented the free enterprise system, when in fact it's always existed.
Some clerics think we invented religion, i.e. natural law, when it's always been there.

@Omnedon No. Awkward phrasing. I was proposing (not stating as fact as it may've sounded) religions are based on 'natural law' (instincts, needs, desires insuring the survival and propagation of the species) but interpret these laws in artificial ways to fit their particular ideology--just as political conservatives co-opt basic economics to fit THEIR ideology and forestall progress.
As usual, obsolete dogma lives on, despite new discoveries, because it has the imprimatur of a godly origin. If god said it....well, you know...

1

I think that would be called deism.

1

I cannot speak for other so called "religions" other than my former Christian experiences.

Generally, as I understand biblical text, God(s) spoke into the thoughts of many people with some reported sightings i.e. Moses on mountain or report of new testiment as Jesus character showing up in person. I am saying this as a general statement that I do not have full analysis to know if it is 100% the case, but: generally in biblical text people were writing for a God to pass on laws, rules rituals etc. So it's not consider to be the man requiring such observations but that the men writing is just the messengers passing the message.

As you you say,"So the purpose of religion has nothing to do with gods and has everything to do with humankind." Would be rather correct in view of a lot of the biblical text.

Consider taking cave man to astronaut. Consider If cave man has no discipline, no concept of route, no concept of procedure to follow then cave man would not make a very good astronaut. Where as things of rituals like "washing hands after touching a dead body" is just a way to start developing discipline or concepts of following written procedure. An astronaut would have to be highly trained, highly skilled and know how to follow a lot of written procedures.

Evolution is a slow thing they say, to bring cave man, jungle laws into a more highly organized written legal system as we see biblical prophesy give about out current new world order where that now people basically are worshippers of laws of government. Even though most may not agree with all laws, there is a huge worldly acceptance to worship the beast-666. Beast being metaphor in biblical Revelations for laws of government and "666" is riddle for identification for taxation and government control that everyone basically worships. Submit to Authority-666 pay taxes Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worship governmental terrorism and religion oppression since the European invasion of 1492 and the Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worshippers freedom from England July 4th, 1776.

Word Level 8 Jan 12, 2020
1

A very obvious point, really. There's a whole swag of new age type religions that waffle on about the universe or whatever, and although they really use quasi gods, like "energy" and "the universe", technically they don't have a god or gods. Also, Buddism is not religion based on gods. Some might say it's not really a religion but a philosophy but that's crap and I say so. Let's also remember that cults don't have gods but cult leaders and mumbo jumbo, but they're still cult religions with the same psych going on. We need to use a broad definition of religion.

@SeaGreenEyez well, I've never heard that. Sounds more like Hinduism. Buddha supposedly said not to worship him. Even if he did say that, his followers took no notice.

@SeaGreenEyez Hinduism is where the 33 million forms of god thing is found.

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