Many so called moral people empathise with others but still do bad things to them.

@Jolanta Yes. Empathy isn't a cure-all for all the bad things we do to each other, some knowing and intentional, some unknowing and accidental. But then, neither is morality a cure-all for all the bad things we do to each other. In fact, we are capable of doing tremendously bad things to each other in the name of morality.

Good for you! So, I have to ask ... did he start giving you advance notice, or did you see a lot of movies?

@Lauren

The only person I can change and control is myself. We divorced when Claire was five for other reasons.

After Claire was born, Terry eventually matured and planned ahead more. But his tendency to act scattered and sloppy continued. He gets emotionally upset. I am the calm parent.

I have never been an imprecise thinker. I see the forest and the trees. Am more forgiving. When I feel hurt, I try to listen for the kernel of truth, learn from it and let the bad feelings go.

As a parent, I take the long view. "This is temporary," I thought when Claire was a rebellious teenager. It was.

@LiterateHiker

Indeed, and that's a very logical way to deal with life. I think also that it's the optimal way to raise a secure child who then has the confidence and intellectual tools to proceed. They depend on us to maintain control, remain calm, and communicate with them.

That's a great answer. I've never understood why women put up with that shit, but they do.

I am a humanist, Intelligent well that depends on how and who maesures it

Who is this "We" of whom you speak? I voted for Clinton. I even donated to the DNC. He's not my fault.

@Paul4747 Whom you chose to vote for is irrelevent, WE are all Americans and WE Americans voted him in. I did not vote for him either, does not change that WE, as Americans, chose him. That is unless you want to no longer be a part of that larger WE called American.

@Davesnothere ......
........
....I'm thinking it over.

@Davesnothere Well, the majority of Americans DID NOT choose him. But, too many of us did; and that causes me great despair.

@Leontion "???? The majority of those who voted did not vote for him. Saying "we" chose him just because we are US citizens is incorrect. "
WE, the American Voters, VOTED him in.
What you or I chose for our vote is irrelevent.
WE, as in the sum TOTALITY, via our election system, wound up with Trump in the end.

WE, as in Americans.

When people do as you are doing and saying "Not me< I didn't pick him!" is you are claiming since your choice was not selected, either his selection does not count OR you don't want to be an American anymore. A part of a group that wound up with him after the vote.

THIS IS A SYMPTOM OF TRIBALISM. Somehow you are seeing yourself as MORE connected to your party/ideals than you are to your membership as an American Citizen, rther than seeing your ideals of what an American is or ought to be as being trampled.

How do we unite if you don't feel like a part of the whole anymore? So much so that either you are not American, or the other guys are not. Not that the ideals are being destroyed, transformed into something else.

@Leontion " I'm defined as a US citizen because I was born here and lack the resources to leave"
So then you hold no desire for "life, Liberty, and the pursit of happiness", you do not espouse even the noblest of American Ideals?

"My citizenship is not part of my identity."
You might want to reconsider that since it is your citizenship (ie membership in the big club) which has afforded you the "rights" to even have this conversation.

"So I am LESS tribal than those who identify with groups.
I don't belong to a political party."
Me too, I do not belong to any party either, and my inner circle is small composed of loved ones. However that does not exclude me and mine from the policies enacted by those olitical powers, does it?

"I identify with people who are honest, kind, and trustworthy."
So do I.

"I reject the group of "we elected him." I'm not tribal enough to say that-- it's just not true, for me."
Then your rejecting actual reality as the total of all our votes led to his winning of the electoral, thus "WE AMERICANS", elected him even if we did not vote that way, it is nonetheless the result of all our actions and all our efforts combined.

You either consider yourself, and your loved ones ON THIS DIRT worth fighting for or not. I think it is shameful to not embrace both your humanity and your Americanism as ONE, and push for AMERICA to be more your ideal, rather than just quit because you did not get your way, wish you could use a geographical solution, when there is not one. You just change the names on the problems, we live on the same globe.

"it's possible that I just didn't get born in a country enough like me to have ever identified."
THAT is not at all how I view citizenship in America. It is not "well this fiots me well, so I'll go with it", rather "These things need to change, so I will set out to try and change them, because a rule of law (dying on the spit as I type) makes that possible.

"The French will strike instead of whining online. They've embedded it in their culture. I adore this characteristic."
THIS TOO is an American Ideal, with the bloody history to show it is as true here as there.

It seems to me like somehow you got the idea you had to fit into America, rather than making it fit you.

I am not a nationalist either, we have done so much horribly wrong. To me that is impetus to do better, not quit the team you wee born into.

@Leontion "I am not an idealist, so that is a big place where we are different."
What makes you think I'm an idealist?
I would not say so.

" I did not take part in Trump winning, and your saying I did isn't going to change that."
Did you for for him ? That is a positive influence
Did you vote against him? That is a negative influence
Did you not vote? Thats a neutral influence, negative as seen by the loserand positive as seen the winner.
THEN that is all tallied, and OUR choice is made.

For me this is about language. IF your American and then YOU TOO were part of that selection process. The process did not select who you preferred. That does not mean you did not take part in his election, you did, you voted against it. To say "It's not my choice!" is to deny the process itself took place, that you had NO EFFECT, TOOK NO PART in it.

Because YOU don't feel like an American does not change your citizenship, only your disregaurd and lack of appreciation of it.

@Leontion Shameful is how it feels to me, like your a person who would rather quit than fight for what you think is right.
Because it does not pertain to you?

@Leontion "Yet I do not feel any obligation to see myself as part of Trump's election."
and yet you admit you were, that you voted against, so you were a part of his election too.

To me, that IS tribalism. You refuse to be any part of the label as you see it, rather than making a new label.
To say Since the GOP won, I'm not part of that while you WERE and voted against them, is to deny your own input.

@Leontion Look. I am not trying to have an arguement, but I think you fail to see exactly how you are presenting yourself, how it appears to me from your words.
First, you claim to be an activist, to create a better society I assume?
Since your American by birth that would mean creating a better society for America (and hopefully beyond).
That is effort and work for the tribe you disavow, the one you were born into and reside in and pay taxes to and vote in its political process.

YES, Shameful again. It is how you are presenting yourself. As a person who wants all the benefits of being in the American trbie, but disavows that very tribe when the vote did not go your way.

Its not a different perspective which causes my boggle, but the reality that you are painting yourself both as an activist and an apathest at the same time.

IF your not a member of the Tribe to which you have membership then you need to quit that tribe or your actions all look hypocritical.

AND you seem not to even see that.

@Leontion I think I see where we are miscommunicating.

You said " I'm not doing those things for a tribe-- I'm doing them for other humans."
THAT is the biggest tribe of all, a tribe(set)including all humans.

You and I both are members of that set(tribe), and inside that set(tribe) lies the set (tribe)of all Americans.
SO when you do activism for the people of your state, you are also doing activism for the (tribe) set of the state and the (tibe) nation, America.

In my view you belong to that set by birth, you take actions like voting and actisim which you think will benefit those people (who are all also in that tribe(set).
Then say your not a part of that tribe(set).

I see tribe as "a group of humans", its most simple useage. A microculture of some kind, be it large or small.

def-"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader:"

YOU see tribe as something with a ton of baggage you do not wish to be affiliated with, which is the same way many of us feel, but we are associated by birth and citizenship even if opposed by choice.

@Leontion "I don't identify with team USA-- however, I am legally a citizen."
EQUALS member of that tribe, set of humans beings including all us citizens.

Your not arguing with me, your arguing with language and definitions.

"I do not believe in "ideals"-- a word you used, and the reason I called you an idealist."
All the things you fight for are your ideals, otherwise you would not fight for them.

THIS
" I did not participate in electing Trump-- I participated only in trying to prevent his election."
Is exactly what I said, and the result of your resitance was Trump got elected, that is what the tribe your a member of selected. BY PARTICIPATING your effort was a part of the total at the end.

I don't see what your saying as "your position", I see it as irrational in the extreme.
ALLEGORY.
WE are all in the Ship of state. Some of us rowing forward, some backward, and some not at all. Because the ship did not move in the direction you prefer does not mean your not in the boat anymore. You would have to jump out or be thrown out, right?
How you FEEL about that reality is "your position", that feeling does not change your position in the Ship of state.

This is not, for me, about trying to force you into anything. All I have tried to do here is explain how irrational the idea you have expressed to me seems.

Please feel no obligation to respond, my intent was only to inform you that the way you are expressing yourself on this particular point strikes me as very irrational, self contradictory. I meant you no ire or ill will, I find it irrational.

I think Kant had the most appropriate study of morality with his Categorical Imperative.

@Geoffrey51 If I remember right, is that not the one, which is basically based on the same logic as grand mother's ? "How would it be if everyone did that."

@Fernapple Sort Of.

It’s more like the good Will is important but ultimately it must be directed as good intent I.e. to do good because it is good to do it, rather than do good with an ulterior motive.

There’s a great In Our Time on Kant.from around a couple of years ago.

@Geoffrey51 Ah, yes I remember now, the one I am thinking of, is called the, universalization principle. It is very good too.