Agnostic.com

26 15

The Prince has spoken. There may be changes happening from within. It might, just might, be possible to see the day Islam is finally reformed.


Mohammed Bin Salman attempts to reform Islam

In an interview with "Al-Arabiya", the Saudi Crown Prince suggests concentrating the constitution and laws on the Koran, eliminating many hadiths (sayings of the Prophet). He speaks of the need for a current “interpretation” of the Koran. A real change in ideological direction that goes beyond the Wahhabism propagated by Riyadh to date. No more stoning, scourging, killing apostates and homosexuals. Many Muslim intellectuals were persecuted and killed because they proposed the same vision as Mbs.

In the interview he spoke of moderation in the application of Islamic laws, challenging Wahhabism, an ideology developed by Mohammed ben Abdelwahhab, an 18th century Saudi preacher, who reigned for a long time in the country and elsewhere, after promoting it for many decades in the Muslim world.

It would seem that MBS has come out in favor of the reform of Islam, when he stated: “All Muslim jurists and scholars have been talking about the concept of moderation for over a thousand years. So, I do not think I am in a position to clarify this concept, as much as I can ... abide by the Saudi constitution, which is the Quran, the Sunnah, and our basic governance system and to implement it fully in a broad sense that is inclusive of everybody."

Until a few years ago, such a speech would have been unimaginable and [even that evening] it was hard to believe it, if broadcast live on the television channel.

MBS also declared that "the Constitution of Saudi Arabia is the Koran" and that his country is "obliged to implement the Koran in one form or another"; that is: all citizens will be respected as such and in their differences. To be more explicit, he stressed that only what is only said “unequivocally” in the Koran should be applied: “In social and personal affairs, we are obliged to implement only the stipulations clearly enunciated in the Quran. Thus, I cannot apply a sharia punishment without a clear or explicit Koranic stipulation of the Sunna.”

If this is to take place, says MBS, then Islam needs reform and sources of religious legislation need review. In saying as much, MBS has placed himself alongside Muslim intellectuals such as Mohamed Arkoun, Mohamed Shahrour, Faraj Fouda and others. It must be said that many of these intellectuals have been persecuted, imprisoned, interdicted, or killed because they had defended a contemporary view of Islam, or tried to cure Islam of its illness: Wahhabism, or political Islam.

MBS says the reform is clear: "The government, where Sharia is concerned, has to implement Quran regulations and teachings in mutawater (well-known) hadiths[ii], and to look into the veracity and reliability of ahad hadiths[iii], and to disregard “khabar” hadiths[iv] entirely, unless if a clear benefit is derived from it for humanity. So, there should be no punishment related to a religious matter except when there is a clear Quranic stipulation, and this penalty will be implemented based on the way that the Prophet applied it.”

In this case, according to this criterion, only 10% of the valid hadiths remain, which are those converging with the Koran. In addition, some Islamic laws would disappear, such as stoning, scourging, amputating the hands of thieves, as well as Islamic criminal law laws, such as the death of the apostate and homosexuals.


Read on: [asianews.it]

Ryo1 7 Nov 13
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

26 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

8

They may actually progress to the 17th century…

That can only be a good thing. Lol
I wonder if the teachings of Islam would've been different if Muhammad didn't win the Mecca-Medina war and didn't make Allah and 'his version' of Islam absolute.

Hopefully the early 17th. Things went to Hell after 1620. Just like in our century.

8

The Prince has a credibility gap. For him to say what is said in the article is too good to believe. My bet is that this is window dressing and the same ole same ole will just go on.

I have reservations, too. We'll see.

7

Ooo, I know a good place to start! Maybe stop murdering dissenters and journalists and slicing them up with a bone saw! Rad, I know, but hear me out!

MBS is a murdering despot who doesn't do a thing unless it benefits him. He says lots of things that sound reasonable, then does whatever the fuck he wants.

IMHO, of course.

History is written by the victors. Not those sliced and diced along the way.

And, they still do public beheading, including witches (tead the evidence for witchcraft- a lot like you see from 17th century Europe/America).

He is also butchering the yemenis with American made weapons. Both Trump and Biden have shown that money talks. Nothing new.

7

Yes, he seems like an honest man you can trust and believe. Sure.

7

MBS is just another tyrannical power- hungry pos.
He's a murderer, and nothing he says can be trusted.

Hi there. 'Trust' doesn't come into my head, but I would like to see what he can actually realise. Like in 2018, women in Saudi Arabia were granted the right to drive.

@Ryo1 As long as they had a man with them.

@RonWilliam53 Not necessarily any more.

6

So he's going all USA101. Watch and learn. Implement. 👍 Now the love affair between the USA and Saudi Arabia can come on out of the closet already. I'm shocked it took so long.

That love affair has never been in the closet. Just sometimes it's a quick cuddle as under Obama and other times it's porn level getting it on as with tRump and the Bushes.

6

Soon to be assassinated, no doubt.

We can but hope. This guy is a butcher and still promotes his Global caliphate.

@RonWilliam53 His death wouldn't end anything. A few of the usually suspects would be rounded up and killed, then another brother would take charge.
Saudi Arabia is a caste system pretty much. The top are the princes, etc. Then, the richer business people and such - all from a Saud family branch, then the middle classes who are educated and run the government workings, etc - again, all offspring of the Saud family. Then come the poor, yet "free" men, some descended from Sauds or the other nomadic trubes, then the poorer, often foreign born or from foreign families doing more crap labor, then slaves, actual slaves.

6

We should not care what this murderer says. And believe him even less.

6

He should start reforming with his freaking large harem. He was born to his father's third wife. MBS has 13 women (not his wives) in his harem. They are Sunni and are primarily occupied with killing Shia in Iran. What Islam are they talking about? Mohammed must be rolling in the grave knowing Mecca is not in Petra but in Saudi and Shia and Sunni are killing each other instead of conquering the world.

6

Certainly curious, from what I know he's one bloodthirsty SOB. Still, many Americans consider America a light of modern enlightenment even while it wages "holy" war on the poor of the world. It will be interesting to see if this leads anywhere.

6

I don't trust any of the Saud family. Real reforms aren't coming anytime soon. My guess is that he fears how much damage Wahhabism has done elsewhere - ISSIS/Daesh; El Shabob; the Taliban; etc, trace much of their teachings to Wahhabism.

Their teachings to Wahabism and their bank accounts to Ryadh.

6

Great, like the Pope loosening up in some respects. Maybe they are both responding to the growing number of agnostics and even atheists, as well as pressure from the more liberal views of a growing number of people in the Islamic world.
But how are the Wahabbis going to react to this? Surely there'll be a backlash.

He's manipulating the PR for a more powerful position with dad.

6

Pretty sure it's just hot air ! Just a show!

Deflect from his journalist murdering self? Fuck the Saudis and islam

6

This guy is an absolute skeez and No degree of reform or declarations of respect for human rights will ever mitigate the actual and profound damage done to people forced to live under theocracy. And he is absolutely still advocating they live in an Islamic theocracy.

Maybe Trump and the Dominionists are taking notes. You have to admit, those Saudis know a thing or two about it.

5

So no more killing of journalists who disagree with him

Welll, maybe just a few journalists shot here and there, not too many, just a few. That will be ok, right...

No. Only their fingers will be cut off.

3

"Is this interview going to be shown in the West? It is? America good! Peace Good! Christianity wonderful,bacon burgers, too!"
"It isn't? Death to infidels-support my Global Caliphate like Donny tRump does!"
The House of SAWED created the Taliban, al queda, funded 9/11 and funded the Iraqi sunni jihadists in Anbar that morphed into ISIS and funds all sorts of global Islamacist terrorism

Are you a representative of MSM by any chance?

@Ryo1 Yeah-I'm actually walter cronkrite.

3

Good luck with that

bobwjr Level 10 Nov 14, 2021
3

So I guess MBS has become a great guy. Isn't that nice? Gotta break some eggs to....you know. /s

3

I doubt anyone from Saudi Arabia will be able to reform Shiite Islam which has control of Iran and the majority of Iraq. The Eastern Othodox Christians may be able to enact reforms within their churches, but not within the Catholic or Protestant Christian Churches.

Is this Mohammed Bin Salman's attempt to white wash what he had done to Jamal Khashoggi in 2018?

Definitely. Also a face saving quotes for Biden who is selling arms to the Saudis after vehemently claiming to not do so during the presidential election campaign

Never know. Some say that MBS is so powerful that what he does in SA can change the entire Middle East.

Shia Iran is a pussy cat in comparison to SAWEDI al quedia-Iran is basically a one trick pony-anti-Israel.
Sawedi al quedia is anti-anybody NOT wahabist- It's pet ISIS boys ar slaughtering shia in Y Afghanistan as we speak. And MBS is bankrolling terrorists round the globe.

2

Reform = No more stoning in the streets?

My word.. pass the gravy. The Good Times have surely come.

wtf

Not so long time ago, a Muslim school somewhere in Africa punished a female student for some minor offence by stoning her. The whole event was secretly filmed and posted on social media, thank god whoever did this and condemnation was so overwhelming that the school was forced to close. The Internet can be a good thing.

2

Maybe some superficial reforms but still as backwards as ever

Backwards? All Muslims in the world?

@Ryo1 Saudi Arabia in particular. KSA beheads homosexuals and scourges women who do not wear the burqa. Most of all, KSA money funds ISIS. Considering that 52% of Muslims in Britain believe that homosexuality should be a crime, pretty damned backwards. Failure to assimilate

@Heavykevy1985 52% of Ivangelicals think homosexuality should be a crime, so there's that.

@RonWilliam53 really? Name the poll. I live in MS, which is the buckle on the Bible Belt. There are those who think that it is a sin but I do not really see them wanting it to be a crime. The statistic I stated was from a Pew Poll from a survey done with mainstream Muslim in Britain. That same poll also shows that many Muslims want blasphemy against Muhammad to be a crime. Keep in mind, 11 countries have the death penalty for homosexuality and all of those are majority Muslim countries.

@Heavykevy1985 And you are in favour that they remain backwards, are you? What political agenda are you trying to push?

@Ryo1 stating facts, no agenda.

@Heavykevy1985
'52% of Muslims in Britain believe that homosexuality should be a crime.' And saying otherwise publicly, in a survey for example, they know what consequence they will have to face. Fear is a great controlling tool.
Do you think it is a good idea that 'backward' Muslims catch up with modern values by moderating the Qur'an? Do you think that the realisation of liberalism within Islam is a good thing for all of us?

@Ryo1 fear? Considering that a man in Britain was put in jail for putting bacon on the door of a mosque, what do you mean by “fear?” If liberalization in Islam is occurring, it is superficial at best. Considering that Erdogan tells Turks in Europe to have four to five children in each family, who is to “fear?” Islam itself is a backwards doctrine. It is incompatible with Western Values. Considering that it is “moderate” Muslims who are saying in Britain that homosexuality should be a crime or punishment should be dealt out to the unbelievers like me, who is to “fear?” Assimilation has failed amongst Muslims in the West.

@Heavykevy1985 Those 'backward' Muslims you talk of have quickly improved their cyber capabilities in Iran. [mei.edu]
Those 'backward' Muslims you talk of are supporting advanced research in oil and gas technology, particularly in the production of clean fuel in Saudi Arabia. [wipo.int]
And those 'backward' Muslims you talk of have been promoting progressive values such as democracy, gender equality, human rights, LGBT rights, women's rights, religious pluralism, interfaith marriage, freedom of expression, freedom of thought, and freedom of religion;opposition to theocracy and total rejection of Islamism and Islamic fundamentalism, and a modern view of Islamic theology, ethics, sharia, culture, tradition, and other ritualistic practices in Islam. Liberal Islam emphasises the re-interpretation of the Islamic scriptures in order to preserve their relevance in the 21st century. [en.wikipedia.org]
The general belief in the West that Muslims are backwards is becoming backwards itself.

@Ryo1 Do you actually believe this guy?

@Ryo1 really? Tell that to Muslims that live in areas of London where sharia police yell at Western women “put on your hijab, whore” or berates people for carrying a bottle of beer with them. Technology has no bearing on beliefs from the Quran so that point you made is a total nonsequitor. Progressive are a minority obviously considering that the Pew surveyed Muslims in Britain and 52% of them state that homosexuality should be a crime. So again, you are talking out of your ass. You sound no better than asshole apologists like Reza Aslan when evidence contradicts what you say. Muslims are becoming more radical in the West. In Molenbeek, a neighborhood in Brussels, the terrorists who carried an attack in Brussels were sheltered by the residents living there. Theo Van Gogh was stabbed to death in the streets over making a movie. When it comes down to it, you as a progressive are too big of a moral coward to call out Islam and it’s barbarity because it is a religion full of black and brown people. Considering that Saudi Arabia funds ISIS and actually has in a manual how to properly behead someone with a sword, you are grasping at straws here

@Ryo1 also, consider your sources like the MEI. You are aware that UAE and KSA are the largest founders of it. UAE has torture pens where they grilled Yemeni prisoners alive and of course, KSA beheads homosexuals and apostates

@RonWilliam53 What has "believe" got to do with liberalism within Islam?

@Heavykevy1985 You sound more and more like you wish to keep Muslims backwards and discourage, if not prevent, Islamic doctrine to be modernised so as to be aligned with the 21 century values. What is your agenda?

@Ryo1 no. Calling it like it is. Islam is a backwards and retrograde ideology at its core. There are more people in the Middle East that are secularizing but in spite of the existence of Islam. You virtually strawman everything I say and I will leave you with this: the Muslim Brotherhood once said “we don’t want to democratize Islam; we want to Islamize democracy.

2

Mbs is not the khalif, is he? He is a political leader not religious. In fact the religious leadership has an uneasy alliance with the Saud family

Well, don't they say where there is a political will, there is a way? If the reform of Islam is plausible because MBS has a political will to do so, let him, I dare say.

@Ryo1 To reform, there has to be an acknowledgement of some defect in the Islamic canon. Mbs can pick and chose per his convenience, but the written word is sacred for the community. I hope you are right though

@Spongebob Though we're non-believers, it's hard to get our heads around to the fact that all religions are man-made. Otherwise, why do we tend to assume that the scriptures, including the Bible and the Qur'an, are so sacred and absolute that they cannot be changed? We're all somehow brainwashed to think that way. After all they were all written by humans. They should be subject to changes and reform just like laws and regulations. The Qur'an was rewritten by Muhammad; after he won the Mecca-Medina war, he made Allah as 'The God' and 'his own version' of Islam absolute. If MBS sees himself so powerful that he thinks he can change the Qur'an for better humanity, let him. 😛

@Ryo1 I think Mohammed bin Slashing has a bridge in Mecca he wants to sell you cheap.

@Ryo1 Allah is God-Islam is just another branch of Old Testament thinking. Even Arab Christians say "Allah" when referring to Jesus' old man.

@RonWilliam53 The same god indeed, and that proves that one interpretation of god led to Islam and another led to Christianity. They both insist that their version of god is the god of all gods. The fight against each other goes on. Crazy, eh? Lol

@Ryo1 way split (nor counting cults like the Mormons). Islam broke off Judaism as did Christianity. Ironically Islam considers Jesus as a prophet, Judaism considers him just another street preacher.
"In Islam, Jesus is one of the five greatest messengers of God who are collectively known as the ‘Ul al-Azm or the Possessors of Steadfastness. Jesus is also a real person who lived in Roman Judea in the first century of the Common Era. Muslims share with Christians most of the basic outlines of Jesus’ story, though there are certainly differences. In Islam, as well as in Christianity, Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary and was without a father. But for Muslims, Jesus is neither God nor the Son of God."

2

I have a great respect for Muslim people. I don't agree with their beliefs but I was always well treated by them, all my Muslim friends know I'm agnostic but they respect it. Of course there are the good and the bad among them. This is a great sign though, knowing that Saudi Arabia has been quite harsh on these issues. Hopefully they'll go through a better path from now on.

Hi there. I have also met quite a few Muslims and I've never known anyone so gentle and friendly like them. I think some politically-minded people deliberately mix up ordinary Muslims and Islamists (fundamentalists) for their political agendas and the ignorant believe them. And when there is a constructive movement like reform of Islam, there is always someone who tries to take the wind out of advocates' sails.

@Ryo1 When I was a security guard for a campground Muslims treated me very nicely. One in particular tipped me and some brought me food at the guard shack. They were the most polite people there.

I have no respect for almost anyone, anymore, but this isn't really about how nice or kind Muslims are. It's about someone who tortured to death a Journalist who spoke against him becoming the most significant Islamic figure since Mohammed Ali. It can't be stopped as he's already gotten away with the murder but, like a Mafia Godfather, has decided he can attain higher power within law now. All he has to do is tell us what his law is. MBS wins.

@Ryo1 The hypothesis is that when Muslims are a minority in a country they oppose any reforms as it seen as an erosion of power and encroachment of secular forces into their territory. Muslim majority nations have had better luck with reforms since their religious identity is not threatened. I am mainly speaking about the Muslim population in India where their community has resisted internal reforms which had taken place in Pakistan and Indonesia long ago.

@rainmanjr Then let him. 😛 If MBS thinks he is so powerful that he can even rewrite the Qur'an, for better humanity he says, let him. The advocates for Islamic reform can use his power to realise liberalism and progressivism within Islam.

@rainmanjr, @Spongebob I have some friends in India but I can't say I'm familiar with the current affairs of India. How Muslims have been treated since Modi became Prime Minister? He is a Hindu nationalist, is he not? Is he dividing Indian society like Trump?

@Ryo1 Muslims in India have been killed and tortured. Modi is pushing for only Hindus to be citizens.

[hrw.org]

1

What he (MBS) does in Saudi Arabia can change the entire Middle East.
Young women in Saudi Arabia know so much about the US.
Saudi Arabia needs a cultural change, and that starts with women.

Interesting.

Ryo1 Level 7 Nov 13, 2021

The irony is, the U.S. is becoming more like Saudi Arabia! We might have our own home-grown Theocracy soon.

@Storm1752 What you speak of, I am and have been for some time, quite concerned about. The religious right has been pushing and pushing ever since the time of the Moral Majority in the late 1970's. Seems there were more open minded people then, as the religious right was not as strong then as they are now.

@Storm1752 Republikkkans already support Y'all Queda and Vanilla ISIS.

@Storm1752 It's odd is it not that you feel that way, despite the fact that you have the First Amendment ensuring both that the government does not show preference to a certain religion and that the government does not take away an individual’s ability to exercise religion, i.e., the church should not rule over the state, and the state cannot rule over the church.

1

Will be interesting to see how the other Moslem countries view this. After-all the true Koran is in Arabic.

Hi there. We have gay Muslims in the UK, for example. They are not hiding and they are not gonna be stoned to death by fellow Muslims any time soon. They are not shy to talk about how to reconcile their sexuality with their faith. While British society has a sociocultural capacity to accommodate them, they have their own interpretation of Islam. Why not? Religion is man-made. It exists as long as humans exist. It's bound to change its course as human concepts change over time.

@Ryo1 Yeah. Not specific to Pope Francis (who's failing at it).

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:633677
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.