Are you comparing a necessity of life to a cult?

@Betty Sorry, made, I conclude that you understanding is shallow.

@Ryo1 The definitiion of 'religion:' is "Religion is a range of social-cultural systems, including designated behaviors and practices, morals, beliefs, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that generally relate humanity to supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements".
If it doesn't include supernaturalism it's not really a religion. Many confuse the term from the ideal that one follows a particular lifestyle with a religious zeal. Veganism is not a religion.

@pedigojr
Who said that veganism was a religion?

@Ryo1 You made the comparison.

@Ryo1
The Carnivore Diet followed by that overdressed Jungian windbag Jordan Peterson is an ideology leading to a constipated demeanor due to lacking roughage. I’d rather be vegan than only eat animal flesh. Fiber is important. Atkins and Paleo are likewise ideologies. Paleo is based on a ridiculous presumption that we should emulate the Flintstones era eating regimen. Arguably anti-veganism is as much an ideology as veganism.

We get it. You have a bee in your bonnet about veganism and are taking some wild Dawkins style tack that imposing something like that on children is wrong because an anecdote.

@Ryo1 What I saw was 'religious indoctrination' which goes in line with a part of my comment. There are some that say atheism is a religion which, again, conflates the difference between religion and 'religious' zeal. I think we need reminding the difference between religion and religious zeal (indoctrination). Maybe we, as realists should not even use the idea of 'religious' indoctrination and just call it indoctrination or cultist indoctrination. Sorry about the mix up.

Yes, that’s a good way to put it.

That's a good point, mate. The same is true for many other things. Children should be introduced to different things that are around them; let them be different cultures, lifestyles, ideas, etc., so that they can think critically and form balanced opinions as they grow up. Children shouldn't be prevented from opportunities to explore due to their parents' strong fixed beliefs and principles.

I had a three-taste rule for new foods I introduced to my son and my niece when they were young. If after the third taste, they still disliked the food, then I did not force it on them. Often a year or two later they were eating the food they had disliked earlier. lol

Each person's system is different. I could never tolerate fish and most seafood. They made me sick which was difficult for my mum since Fridays were fish day according to Catholic tradition.

@Betty my sons were never very picky and tended to eat just about everything set before them. As I noted, my older son didn't care for some seafood, but that was about it. My local grandkids are a bit picky, but not too bad.

I did not like black olives the first time I tasted them, but when I tried them again, yum! I never learned to like beef liver. My mom didn't cook it often as NO ONE liked liver but her. Other than that, my sibs and I were not too picky about food.

@DenoPenno
My mom tried to pass liver off as steak when I was really young. I was not a fan. My dad loved his liver and onions. My mom never tried that with me again. I can eat broccoli but it smells like musty wet laundry to me. Luckily I don’t experience cilantro as soapy, but some do. I do like potato salad depending on how it is made, but respect your dislike.

I recall eating lamb as a kid and not liking it. Never tried it again. A few years ago an Indian restaurant had curried goat on the lunch buffet. I didn’t try it. I might have missed out on something good.

I do like Thai fermented fish sauce and also kimchi, which is basically rotten spicy cabbage. Those are definitely acquired tastes. I wasn’t born with the sort of parents who would inflict such things on me. I found them on my own.

@Scott321 I ate goat in Africa in 2004. Not bad but do not let it get cold or it gets tough. As for liver and onions, I hate them. Still, I knew a woman once who did a good job fixing them and I liked her cooking. As for lamb, I have given up. Tried fixing my own several times over the years and it never turns out right for me. Exotic things like raw fish, etc. are just not right for me either. I do not want a parasite.

On the smell of food. . . . When my oldest son lived with me for awhile, I don't remember if I were a vegetarian then or eating fish and fowl but not cows or pigs. However, he would fry hamburger and the smell nauseated me. He had to have the exhaust fan going while he cooked.

@Scott321 my mother cooked lamb chops once and passed them off as another meat. I had no opinion on them, so it didn't matter to me. The amusing thing was that my dad professed to hate lamb, but they were fried like pork chops and he had no issue with them. When my mom admitted what she did, he was not happy. We never had lamb chops again.

I like broccoli and my kids liked it--my grandkids won't eat it. I don't like sauerkraut, but I liked kimchee--it's been years since I ate any, though. My parents liked sauerkraut with wieners in it.

I love most seafood/shellfish, but can't stand oysters raw or cooked. I don't mind eating sushi with raw fish, but I don't because of the parasite issue. I still eat my eggs over-easy.

Nevertheless, dietary habits are a poor example of parental "influence." My mother made me eat liver, but I never ate it after leaving home. She also refused to buy mayonnaise and we had Miracle Whip on sandwiches, potato salad, and green salads. I liked mayonnaise (had it a friend's house), but being forced to eat Miracle Whip because it "tastes" better did not influence me as an adult. My mother also would not make tuna casserole because she hated "hot tuna." It never kept me from making tuna casserole as an adult.

On the other hand, the issues of Xtianity were VERY hard to shake as an adult and it took me decades to do so. In part, this was societal and not just familial.

Agreed.

@racocn8
If we can blame vegan parents for their children later not liking animal products, we can blame our parents for letting us consume fatty and/or sugary garbage leading to diabetes and heart disease later in life.

I can eat shrimp and lobster with no problem, but I am repulsed by insects, which are probably a perfectly good food source. I blame my parents.

I like salmon but have a hard time with sardines.

To his credit my dad tried to get me to eat steamed oysters. I found them repulsive. What is to blame for that?

The OP is an anecdote set out to badly characterize vegan parents. I would hope such parents are ok with breastfeeding though as a nutritional source. Just saying.

Without knowing the pressures his parents put on him per eating vegan foods, we can't truly gauge how their "brainwashing" affected him. Did they tell him that meat would make him sick, or did they just put the vegan fare on the table as a matter of course?

@Scott321 you wrote, "If we can blame vegan parents for their children later not liking animal products, we can blame our parents for letting us consume fatty and/or sugary garbage leading to diabetes and heart disease later in life."

Yes.

As a child, I was fed on a steady stream of fatty and sugary foods. When I was a child, I never knew how bad these foods were for me. When I grew up, I realized how bad they were, but continued eating them until I was in my 40s and weighed 250 pounds. I changed my diet. However, I never blamed my mother for cooking the foods she did.

From what I can gather, my friend's boyfriend can't eat meat, fish and dairy products, physically, because his body just can't accept them. His body has been conditioned this way as a result of being raised to be vegan. Isn't that kind of abuse?

@Ryo1 give me proof that a person cannot adapt to eating meat/dairy products. Scientific proof.

@Ryo1 IMHO it isn't abuse. I had the right to raise my children the way I saw fit. Now they are adults and they have kids they are raising their children the way they see fit to. I don't always agree, but I am a good Grammy, I go with the flow. Now your friend's boyfriend needs to speak to a dietician about adding meat products to his diet. Has he spoken with any medical professionals about this? He may have an underlying health condition, or he just needs to take it very slowly. You likely don't even have the full story of what is going on, secondhand information is notoriously sketchy. But it seems like the boyfriend made it to adulthood, so his parents did their job.

@Gwen_Wanderer
I’m perplexed by the thought a raised vegan can’t adjust to eating animal products. Even Jello?

Some groups can’t tolerate dairy regardless of upbringing because the lactase persistence thing.

I veer into a more vegetarian diet once in a while. I should stick by it. I consume quite a bit of salmon and some cheese, so it’s not a strict thing just relative. I manage to eat a bunch of fiber, which is great until it isn’t. TMI. Fiber is important unless you’re Jordan Peterson.

@Gwen_Wanderer
>>> give me proof that a person cannot adapt to eating meat/dairy products. Scientific proof.
You are generalising. I'm talking about someone's living experience.
Apparently, he ate some chicken meat in the past in an attemt to stop being vegan. He became very ill, and thereafter he hasn't been encouraged to eat meat again. Why does he have to suffer like that?

@Ryo1
Can a generalization be made that raised vegans can’t tolerate animal products? Or is this an anecdotal peculiar instance?

Some people can’t consume gluten which comes from certain vegetables.

@Gwen_Wanderer, @HippieChick58
>>>secondhand information is notoriously sketchy.
There is nothing wrong about sharing someone's experience.

>>> it seems like the boyfriend made it to adulthood, so his parents did their job.
Year, as a vegan.
Similary, you could say about someone "it seems like one made it to adulthood, as a Christian, so his parents did their job."

@Ryo1
Does he want to eat meat and dairy? If he does then he can condition himself to do so with help from a professional.

@Ryo1 You seem awfully invested in this, just saying.

@Ryo1
Religion is not a necessity of life, food is. If he is healthy then he was not abused. If he wants to eat meat, he can take the necessary steps on that journey by educating himself and getting professional help.

@HippieChick58
Playing devil's advocate.

@Scott321 before I could believe that person raised vegan cannot tolerate a diet with meat/dairy, I would have to see studies showing that they cannot. I have been an omnivore, vegan and vegetarian. I now eat fish and fowl, but not cows or pigs (which make me an omnivore). Vegans and vegetarians can be very healthy--people who eat meat can be very unhealthy. It is all about how one goes about being either a vegan or omnivore.

@Ryo1 sharing someone's "experience" is a logical fallacy because it is only one person's experience. The same with generalizing. I refuted the experience of the guy who was raised vegan and now cannot eat meat/dairy by the experience of a family I knew--the kids were raised vegan, but after leaving home, ate meat with no issues. If the guy cannot adjust to eating meat but wants to, he should seek professional help. His issues might be psychological and not his body reacting to meat/dairy.

@Ryo1 the comparison is not valid. If children raised as Xtians continue to be Xtian, then no damage has been done to them. If they leave the religion without psychological stress, then no harm has been done.

If the guy raised vegan is healthy, then no damage was done to him.

If a person who needs to deal with issues being raised Christian as a child, he/she can seek professional help.

If the person raised vegan wants to eat meat/dairy, he can seek help to find why his body reacts to it OR if his inability to eat meat/dairy is psychological.

And I can't remember seeing a reply to the question if he wants to eat meat--did I miss it?

, @Scott321 I am sure the issue is anecdotal. Also, considering that Ryo doesn't appear to know the guy in question, it is thirdhand anecdotal.

Religion has apparently been a part of human culture since before written history. It's silly to deny this. In other words, just because humans have "always" done something, it does not mean that it is the only way to go.

Vegetarianism is quite healthy if the diet is well planned.

@Flyingsaucesir
Without getting into a figurative food fight where I am on the fence, humans may be omnivores, but are we obligate carnivores like cats? I think not and the whole omnivore thing can come across as a red herring. Though technically true it doesn’t preclude a strict vegan diet though such a thing is a major pain in the ass as a stricture. There is an ideological element that goes beyond health choices. It’s about ethics of animal use or exploitation which is an understandable concern. My forays into vegetarianism were both health conscious and a matter of rising to the challenge.

BTW I have consumed soy milk for over 20 years though still eat dairy cheese. I can’t say I’m a pure vegetarian, but try to actively eat mostly vegetarian overall with some animal products added in.

I have recently discovered chickpea noodle soup. It has some egg in it so isn’t perfect.

@Gwen_Wanderer @Scott 321 Chicken and fish are good for you. Is religion? That is debatable.

What I wrote was simple fact, not a value judgement. We ARE omnivores.

The tone of your writing...it sounds kinda defensive. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm mostly neutral on people's diets. I really could not care less if they choose go vegan or vegetarian. It's really fine by me.

I say "mostly neutral" only because, since there are so many of us on the planet now, eating beef is harming the environment. I would rather eat grasshoppers than knock down the Amazon rain forest.

@Flyingsaucesir sorry if I sounded defensive! I did not feel that way at all.

While we are omnivores, hunter-gatherer societies (depending on location) often relied more on plants than animals, i.e. in the Andes, people were highly reliant on plants: [faunalytics.org]

And: [theguardian.com].

And from AI in my search:

"According to most research, hunter-gatherer societies relied heavily on plants, with many deriving over 50% of their diet from gathered plant foods; while the exact percentage varies depending on the region, studies suggest that most hunter-gatherers consumed a significantly larger portion of plant matter than meat, often considered "gatherers" more than "hunters."

People such as the Inuit depended largely on animals just because of where they lived.

Religion is "good" for some people, i.e. the guy who once said in a chat room that he "wished" he could do "anything" he liked as atheists do. I asked him what he wanted to do--rape and pillage? If some people lack a "moral compass" and religion keeps them in line, that is not a negative.