Thanks, good thoughts.

@rogerbenham Here's one to do your head in, rings true for me because of the irony in it.
Let's say we do have a soul. Then the question is, "Does the soul survive when the physical body dies?". Let's say yes again.
That means there will be no physical restraints on our imagination. No rules in the non-physical existence. You may create what you wish without physical restraints. Sounds quite wonderful.
But if this is the case then theists, those who have subscribed to religious doctrine, will create their own restraints in the non physical world; A Heaven and Hell. So these people may indeed create themselves a Heaven but would that not be a prison in an existence with no physical laws? And as most assume they have "sinned", their souls create a prison of Hell instead. Whereas atheists will only be restricted by their own imagination in any post existence, not bound by doctrine learnt during their lifetime.
Now is that irony or what?

Personally, being a pessimist, 'm expecting to be worm food but if there is a light when I die, I'd be inclined to head the other way.

@puff Well I can't argue, is there ever any point?, But I can say that I have experiences which you have not. But all of what you wrote sounds nuts, as you intended.

@rogerbenham Does not all belief seem nuts to the non believer? They are all based on a set of assumptions. A lot of "ifs". I like pondering, following threads of assumptions that I do not subscribe to and see where it logically leads. And how what reality is seems illogical.
Luckily I can differentiate between belief and knowledge. It's when belief is accepted as knowledge we get into problems.

@puff Indeed

Maybe religion depends up endless repetition from an early age. My parents were not so into beliefs.

What you witnessed was the moment debriefing from indoctrination occurred. She will progress quickly now from leaving the cult of "Santa Claus". She is crying for herself more than anything, for being fooled. Anger will follow. But she will be a stronger person now, less gullible hopefully. Part of growing up.
The whole Santa thing is fairly recent. Xmas far more religious previously, with St Nicholas an actual person and his life celebrated with no supernatural flying reindeer in sight until Coke got in on the act.

@rogerbenham Repetition is a favoured learning tool, not only in message but ritual.
Indoctrination is the formal teaching of doctrine so one may become an accepted and functioning member of that specific groups doctrine only. Formal is the key word ie using professional instructors and set lesson plans. Sunday School an excellent example. Military basic training another.

@puff I guess I was very lucky.I rejected conformity I was never into groups except I loved singing in choirs but when I went home the choirs never came with me except in1976 when one other came home and we did acid together. I succeeded when I broke free at university and suddenly shone.

Not even close. Remember, this is a con job. The art and music were USED to cheat people out of their money. And, the religion exacts a heavy toll on their consciousness which is robbed of critical thinking. It also imposes sociopathy on the whole society as well as rigid delusion.

Imagine what music and art might have been created if people had freedom of thought and expression!!! What if the Enlightenment had started 500 or a thousand years earlier?

And England has a particularly wretched history, no doubt because they had freedom from honesty and integrity as enforced by religious belief. In addition to the pogroms of Europe, King Edward I expelled all Jews from England in 1290, this done to confiscate their property and wealth.

@racocn8 Oh for sure. If you want to examine why the founding fathers put up firewalls between church and state, just look at England's (for them) recent history.

We actually have no idea how faith inspired those works or the need to be paid. Even JSBach seemed deducated to the church but did he believe in God, the Lutheran or catholic church or raising money for his family.

@racocn8 NB. You are correct about Edward I expelling Jews. They were not allowed to return until the reign of Mary I (Bloody Mary) One person's bigot may be another friend.

Not only that, but the entire gold-plated ( or solid gold!) Decorative stuff in those "magnificent" churches was taken from the mouths of people who ate cabbages if they could get them and died at 35.
When I was in Spain and saw this, in even the smallest churches, gold & silver beyond imagining, it made me physically ill.

@annewimsey500 It was a constant source of argument in our household. Mom was Catholic Dad was atheist, I was born in Malta (navy brat). Medina Cathedral has a solid gold roof. How can you justify bling like that?

" Christianity shares many of the same features as Mithraism (a Persian God)"
Wonderful!
Do I have religion? Yes!!! I love and feed from nature, Apart fron 10 years I have lived in and gloried Nature, I shared landfor 40 years with nature and with bears, moose, dear walking though I still do. But I live 1200km pr 800 miles from a 3 million city. A line drwn due north from my home crosses oe highway before reaching the Northh Pole.

Sorry I 'm leaving this alone as your tone advises me that there is too great a gulf between us.

If you need any proof of how harmful religion is to us, look at the current state of the US…..‍
You’re right, there is a gulf between us. It’s a gulf created by the blindfold you’re wearing.

Bigoted intolerance and hate cause much harm. I’m guessing more than you care to admit…..
[yahoo.com]

Fair enough. I know of one friend who had been abused as an altar boy. Dead now. The historyof the Roman Catholic church had little to do with religion, much more to do with power and control. Whether ther pretended to be Christian or not, power through brutality was always the way. Trump wants to use religion for power but there is no way that he is Christian.The fantasy we have is the the nastiest of people for the nastiest of reasons with be good as our leaders.

I the earlies days were they religion or simply power wars? People hate thos who do not conform. I imagine that I am on a watch list for me extreme left views.
A lot of that horrible stuff was also done not in the name of religion. In the name of regarding them as sinners and savages.
I know what they did. I have no recent knowledge other that what they did with complicity with the Cananian government in theResidential schools. But as long as Xtians do not try to force their religion onto me, in my daily life I have only one big problem and that is that they do not obey the teachings they pretend to follow.

Thanks. Through religion great works were done, wondrous buildings, some useful teaching ... but as King HenryV111 pointed out they also sold pigs blood as blood of Christ and pieces of wood as from the cross. THey denied science. In Canada they did the most dreadful things tonative children.

@rogerbenham Whenever I see these “wondrous” buildings, I wonder how many different ways those resources could have been used to actually help people…..

@rogerbenham My life as a Catholic was benign so I stayed longer. Once, when helping a priest out he was tole we were out of 'holy water.' He got me to fill a pitcher with water and then said some words over it so it became 'holy.' All this time we thought it came from someplace special like Lourdes. What a joke. So many things like this finally made me realize it was pure BS.

@Aaron70 True but mosst of the weralthy built castles to defend themselves and wondrous cathedrals to better their odds in their heaven and to build another form of control. The betterment of the conquered peoples was of little interest. England was ruled in French for at leasr 300 years. Those Morman French still own 75% of the land. Why people love castles beats me.

Oh, sorry. No doubt true. I represented ruling power then.