LINK Richard Dawkins: No Civilized Person Accepts Slavery, So Why Do We Accept Animal Cruelty? - YouTube
Veganism is something I've been thinking about for some time now. Mostly for reasons of compassion for animals. What are your thoughts on veganism ?
6
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21 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Being biased, I can think of no reason not to go vegan. The argument that denying the right to a future life seems labored.
Count_Viceroy
Level 7
July 2, 2018
4
I feel the same.
The suffering of all sentient beings matter, and the science points to most animals having consciousness (less clear when it comes to insects, for example). We don't need to eat animals to survive, therefore we shouldn't. This causes needless pain. (Some might say, 'but it doesn't have to be that way! We could treat them well and kill them painlessly!' But we don't. So.)
Ellievescent
Level 4
July 2, 2018
2
And yeah, there's a difference between 'I had to kill an animal to survive' and 'I killed an animal to survive but there were a lot of other things I could have used to achieve that same goal but I don't like how they taste'. How many people are actually in the 'I had to kill an animal to survive' camp? Not so many, nowadays.
I think there are some elements of horror that cannot be driven from the experience of life. At this point in history death and pain are guaranteed components of every living creature’s experience. What we are presuming to help food animals avoid, we will not be able to avoid ourselves. Unnecessary cruelty is naturally disgusting to our sensibilities, but life cannot exist without consuming life. It’s as irrational a fantasy as thinking there’s a man in the sky who cares how we behave. Evolution created our instinct for altruism toward our own kind. In times of plenty it’s easy to extend those sympathies to other creatures, but if we do, we’re doing it for our own emotional comfort, not because of any ethical truth that exists, like a man in the sky, independent of our evolved nature.
If we were to succeed at getting all humans to stop eating other animals what would our next “ethical” frontier be, teaching the birds not to eat insects? the snakes not to eat rodents? the lions not to eat zebras? It’s a big job, trying to strong-arm the universe.
I think it’s generally healthier to eat more fruits&veggies and less meat, but extremes of all kinds are often more akin to neurosis than rationality. Reality is never so pure.
skado
Level 9
July 2, 2018
2
I enjoyed reading this very much. In our state we have to declare farm animals we have on our tax form. They are property. Every year, I have to declare my goats and am taxed on them.
Etre:
Living organisms feed off of living organisms. We are the only species of animal that cooks our food.
It is called higher conscious state of being. Your body works at its best from living food. Eat living foods for a week or a month. No flesh. See how you feel in respect to justifying your means of consuming other animals. Most of the animals we consume are herbivores. All of our closest realitives eat less than .5 percent flesh in a year.
The science is there, you have to find it. Non meat consumers live 8 years longer on average.
You do not have a digestive tract condusive to eating meat. Beef rotts in your gut for three days, before it is digested. You do not have complete enzymes for breaking down meat. You do not have true canines....
Any Questions..... on this science versus your thesis agaisnt those who are raised to a higher state of conscious being.
With Respect to you Sir.
An Ethical Truth does Exist. Especially when it comes to what is being done to the food supply, and the humans that consume said foods. So, yes there is an ethical choice, would you like to travel down the rabbit hole and learn about Food Inc.
That little voice you hear telling you to #goVegan is you conscience 
SkotlandSkye
Level 8
July 2, 2018
2
First off, great reading you all. Its always refreshing to come in here and see civilized conversations unlike FB and others. Even when you all disagree, you can actually be adults. Thank you all for that. On the topic, I commend anyone who has made the migration to veganism. I have pondered it for dozens of years. With raising 4 kids and a meat and potatoes wife, I really just found it easier to comply with social standards. Now that they are all grown up and the wife is no longer in the picture, I have the freedom to really choose. Yet, today I am having smoked pork chili for lunch and dinner (leftovers). It is an ever present thought to me, and I really admire those that have the will power. There is no need to eat meat and no need to kill for pleasure in this world. Hopefully someday I will get there too. As one of you pointed out, its baby steps, I work on reduction everytime I go shopping.
Sucellus
Level 5
July 3, 2018
1
Killing animals for food is the natural order. I don't judge others for not going vegan. However, there's usually a more sustainable way to live one's life. I became vegan since early April this year and it's mostly for ethical reasons and i encourage others to do the same. Some might argue that other animals kill themselves for food, so why should humans be different? It seems to me that humans are the most rational animals on this planet so we should expect more informed way of life from human. Veganism is more sustainable to the environment compared with meat based diets
obis
Level 6
July 3, 2018
2
I'm vegetarian. I might try veganism but it seems very difficult.
confidentrealm
Level 7
July 3, 2018
1
Veganism is an extension of vegatarism, it goes beyond the meat. It means no animal products of any kind can be consumed. An obvious one is leather. Other banned items includes eggs and honey.
I'm sorry but I have chickens and they ARE NOT pets. I eat their eggs. I don't eat the chickens. I'll never be vegan, don't intend to
FYI...Some plants eat animals (link 1) and plants have perception as well (link 2). Please see the three links. I think you are picking your preferred digestible part of the biological tree of life (link 3) and creating a false moral judgment upon those whose appetites are different. I have to disagree with Dawkins on this one.
kensmile4u
Level 8
July 2, 2018
2
Etre:
Srry.... but humans do not have complete enzymes to break down meat. Beef rots for three days before you digest it. You do not have true canine enscissors. You do not have a digestive tract like all other carnivors. The first human hominids were herbivores according to Anthropological Record.
Any Questiones??
@Etre This is not true. Meat sits in one's stomach for about 30 hours, along with other things you eat and then travels through the intestines. It takes about 42 hours to make the entire trip through your body. See the Mayo Clinic [healthline.com]
Etre:
@PerbeMayhaps
I spent several years in learning. Humans do not have complete enzymes to break down meat. All animals who consume meat have complete enzymses and a different digestive track. More in and out, where as herbivores have winding digestive track. Yes Science is split. Who funds the AMA, FDA, ect....
Today's slaughter house practices are unethical, but I've yet to see an ethical argument against eating meat.
Tucker79
Level 5
July 2, 2018
2
Someone once told me if I ever visited a slaughter house, I would never eat meat again. I often think about this and wonder how people can work in these and remain emotionally healthy.
I know there are just like over a century ago
I used to be a butcher and don't recommend eating mince or sausages!?
I have seen some people say that animals don't have morals, I'm sorry but some animals do have morals. The chimpanzee for example displays altruistic behavior, sure maybe they can not rationalize as well as humans, but they do display morals. Elephants are another animal that has morals, and they have some since of self. I think that we as humans should treat animals with more respect, but from an evolutionary stand point we are omnivores. We eat meat as well as vegetation, it is part of the circle of life, but that doesn't mean we can not show compassion to animals.
WillSmith1
Level 4
July 2, 2018
1
There is an ethical Vegan group on here. You are welcome to join
SkotlandSkye
Level 8
July 2, 2018
0
Humans are both rational and capable of moral deliberation, other animals do not have this ability, which this is why we must always treat humans as ends and never as means. Animals have since the beginning of recorded history proved beneficial to the existence of our species.
The way we raise and slaughter animals ought to be much more humane than it is, but that does not mean that there is anything wrong with eating animals, regardless of what the Dawk says.
cava
Level 7
July 2, 2018
0
Eating meat isn't wrong. Not eating it is better.
@weelittleone I can understand the dislike of eating meat ... I don’t like beef (I like cows), little pork, but I do eat chicken. I can see how veggies and vigans maintain their life styles
@Millerski25 I actually love the taste and smell of meat. That smell from KFC is killer. And cheese? The best. But people can get over it, and make do.
Eating animals isn't wrong. It's killing them that is. Raising them to live a life that will eventually lead them to slaughter is inhumane, no matter how nice the life given to them seems to be. Also we don't look at animals and think, "boy, these animals sure can't do math very well and don't seem to understand what's going on. This makes it ok for me to kill it and eat it's corpse." I understand eating an animal for survival, but we got passed the kill the animal to eat it for survival as soon as we learned to farm plants. Ever since that's happened, as long as the farms have been prosperous, we've always have had the choice to keep the animal alive and survive off of other non-sentient forms of life.
So the Fumbling Fathers were not civilized persons when they "founded" this country. Yep.
GipsyOfNewSpain
Level 9
July 2, 2018
0
Yes, we should go back to stealing land and owning people. Duh.
You have at least 1 false premise thus your conclusion must be false . Slavery compares to almost nothing, it is the must cruel, horrid, vile, institution that was a psychological, emotional and physical genocide of s people... Black folks have been under slavery up to the present and remain disrespected, disenfranchised, excluded and dominated by WASPs who control everything in America thus we still tolerate this system. As for animals ... some of my best friends are dogs and cats. And that’s abuse of animals is extraordinarily painful and I can’t tolerate The cruelty
Millerski25
Level 6
July 2, 2018
0
"You have at least 1 false premise thus your conclusion must be false."
No, it's not an automatic negation. It just leaves room for their conclusion to not be proven by their argument - but the conclusion could still be true for other reasons.
@chilehead9 Tupi know I can scaly say that you covert antagonism and sarcasm are not appreciated and if you want to jack some off please respond elsewhere, in fact I would prefer you not answering me entries and please spare you discontent
Just have to ask Jennifer, are any of your shoes, belts, purses etc. leather? Because if they are, to me, you have to go all in and get rid of them if you take this posture. I just recently spoke to a friend of mine in Alaska who told me that he received a bison permit. First I didnt know that we let anyone kill bison but also he explained that it's necessary to control the herd. I guess so they don't eat all the plants We do also breed cows etc so we also create animals. In the cave man days when they killed animals to survive, eat or be eaten I guess you could say, the ethics have changed but since we raise pigs and cattle for food I'm not sure that it matters. For those that believe that all living things have feelings, that would go to plants too and then you couldnt eat them either. This goes to the opposite argument I hear about assisted suicide, where people say "we treat our animals better" by putting them to sleep. So it's ok for us to decide when they are in pain to kill them (when they are too much burden to take care of) Our ethics placed on them. By the way animals can't commit suicide so we have to do it for them. Ethics are a personal thing. If not eating meat are your ethics then make sure you're consistent with leather goods etc.
lerlo
Level 8
July 2, 2018
0
Do not agree. Being human gives us no pure philosophy. Are you a libertarian? Quit using the roads and calling the police. Same if you're a capitalist. North Korea has entrepreneurs. Socialist countries have millionaires and billionaires. Why vegans have some sort of purity test when others don't is silly. I for one would eat road kill (in theory). I have some leather shoes I got from Goodwill. My reasoning is that I'm not contributing to the industry by buying new. Maybe I'm wrong. So what.
The animal euthanasia issue, hits me hard right now. We have a fourteen year old whippet whose ability to care for himself deteriorates each day. He is a burden to care for. He barks for water, food, and to be turned over. He falls walking and we have to hold him up to go to the bath room. He has been a fabulous pet and we want to keep him with us until it is cruel to do so. Every night, though, I hope he dies in his sleep.
@pryan sorry you're going through that. Losing a pet is hard. If you decide to let a vet do it, make sure they let you see him first. A vet way back killed my dog who we sent in for a check and when he came out with the diagnosis and I said can I see him he said no. Because he had already done it without consent.
@lerlo
Oh my.....
Our vet will prescribe sedation for the dog to be given at home. He will then come to our home at an appointed time and euthanize him. I feel sick just thinking about it.
@pryan tough time, sorry. I guess if the vet can tell you the dog is in pain you can make a choice but otherwise I'm sure you're a comfort to him as he is to you
Thank you. Your comment is helpful.
@pryan I did that to my favoritest dog Max I loved him like few other dog people and I cried as he restfully expired. To my dismay it made it no easier... the morning was just the same pain and loss. Another one of my buddies were gone
Animals are our slaves. There really is no difference between what we do to animals and what our ancestors did to minority groups at the time. The only difference is who it's being done to.
LoveLivingLife
Level 4
July 2, 2018
0
Or as we still do to people of color that hasn’t changed and various forms of slavery continue now just look at white supremacists such as our Pres.
People get slammed for rescuing animals on farms, saying that the animals were 'stolen'. Animals now, like black people in the USA and women all over the world prior to first wave feminism, have property status, which makes it legal for humans to breed them, buy them, sell them, exploit their bodily functions, feed them until they're fat, and then kill them to sell their bodies for people to eat. We can do whatever we want to animals. There was a point in history, where people were able to buy and sell other humans, and these actions are just as wrong when we do it for animals as when we do it to other humans.
What were those things that people used to say when they had to justify why blacks, women, and other minorities deserved the same kinds of rights as other humans did. These people all bleed the same colour blood, want to be free from harm, and have the kinds of minds that allow them to pursue their own good life, just like any white male would like to do with their lives. Animals have all of these same qualities, and they should get the same kind of protections that everyone else enjoys. Or is supposed to enjoy. Realistically all of the rights we want to have for others aren't put into place for most of the rest of the world.
Yes I do Have a fevorant belief that cruelty towards other things weighs heavy on my shoulders. However, I also am an omnivor, I love eating beef, pork chicken, turkey,crabs, fish, and many others. To be honest, so dous the rest of the animal kingdom. No one could ever point out an example of a vegan lion, or tighr, etc.
TristanNuvo
Level 8
July 2, 2018
0
You sound more like s carnivore
And that’s cool if so
What about all the other animals? Like rabbits, and deer, and elephants, and giraffes. They're all vegans, and they get by just fine.
@LoveLivingLife what's the average life span of these vegan animals ?
@LoveLivingLife I will morn their extinction
I have always held a certian revere for Richard. Not so much about his strident voice of Atheism. But even more than that I love his fevorant push to educate people, to promote the value of Science. applying the Scientific method, and to question evering. To me that is the most admiration I have for him.
I have seen him in many 'debates' or conversations. But the ones I like most, and two come to mind were one he had a great conversation with Dr. Neil Degrase Tyson. In that talk the view of god never came up. If memory serves the theme or title was 'the poetry of Science'. Which to me more informative about what Science has to offer rather that just religion bashing.
TristanNuvo
Level 8
July 2, 2018
0
In my opinion, it is infinitely more ethical than the status quo (inhumane farming practices), but Sam Harris makes an interesting case for ethical farming practices accompanied by a reduction in overall meat production.
Basically Harris says that if the lives of farm animals are, on balance, positive existances right up to the point of a humane death, that the moral argument could be made that to deny the animals those lives would be unethical.
To reiterate, though, an overall reduction in consumption of meat would still be beneficial due to the positive environmental impact and human health benefits. Of course, we are nowhere near this point, so veganism is still morally superior to our current situation (in my opinion), and yet I say this as someone who does eat meat.
It makes me a hypocrite but that’s just life - we are all hypocrites in some way/shape or form. Veganism being morally superior is also predicated on the assumption that all organisms with a central nervous system have the capacity for suffering, which I am not completely sold on, considering fish, shrimp, or lobster, for example.
tsacrey
Level 6
July 2, 2018
0
Kuranic and Talmudic law : kosher or hallah; the animal is killed by slicing the neck carotid or jugular the animal “ humane” death. I think it was Upton Sinclair that discribed the slaughter of cattle was by a huge sledgehammer and Teddy the famed hunter didn’t like it either (FDA)
I would disagree with Harris on that point. If we raised humans in cages, and provided them everything they need for their basic survival, and allowed them, nay, even encouraged them to reproduce so that we could take their children and enroll them into the same institution their parents were born into, only to kill these children and harvest their resources that function as a good amongst the societies that operate these institutions, I think Harris would eventually have to concede that doing this is in a human scenario is unethical. I get how he's trying to make his point. He's trying to say that because of the materially good lives that these animals live, in spite of not being permitted to live the entirety of their natural age cycle, we're practicing a moral system that will forgive us for the inhumane act of slaughter. My counterpoint would be that, in spite of the material superfluity that these animals enjoy, they are also being denied a number of basic liberties that these animals would otherwise enjoy outside of captivity, and depriving these animals of these liberties is irremediably unjust. To name, these things are freedom of association, freedom of movement, freedom to dissent from the constitution of their body politic, and the freedom to abandon their place of living which is effectively a controlled environment designed to manipulate the bodily constitution of these animals. I know that humans and animals aren't exactly on the same page when it comes to mental capacities, but these freedoms are substantive when it comes to determining quality of life. Going back to the above example, would you consider ourselves to be doing something ethical, if we put our kids into a school that they could never leave, which they will belong to for the rest of their lives? Something important is missing here.
@LoveLivingLife thanks for your comment, however when I have heard Harris make this argument, I believe he implies that the animals would have every possible benefit perhaps short of being truly “wild” and obviously what you have pointed out about not living a full natural life.
Another angle on this argument is that Harris says that if we stop farming animals, then technically there will be no farm animals in the future, so we are denying existence those animals, who will not get to live the fulfilling lives if we do not breed them for farming.
Anyway, I should also say that it’s not as if Harris hangs his hat on this argument, it’s mostly just a thought experiment on what ethical farming practices might mean for this particular moral question. I do not want to misrepresent his views on this topic, lest I become what I hate the most.
Cows kill more people a year than sharks .....I'm just doing my bit to save lives
Simon1
Level 7
July 2, 2018
0
You could be right but I ran on several cattle ranches and never had an iota on difficulty well maybe except this one bull who I happen to think was Antisemitic
Life is a savage jungle. People will be cruel to one another as well as animals. Want to eliminate cruelty? Eliminate people.
exilesky
Level 7
July 2, 2018
0
Want to eliminate cruelty to animals? Don't eat them. Well, that eliminates some cruelty. But I may as well try to do something about it.
Eliminating people is going to take way more effort than being decent to animals . Baby steps
I think I’ll plead the 10th Amendment that’s really the 5th x 2
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