It's impressive how if you remove the words "left wing", switch the names Obama and Trump around, and then drop everything after the word "him", it then makes perfect sense. As it is, it makes me wonder what you're smoking.

@Paul4747 You are a typical liberal who seem to substitute your lack of religous belief for a desire for big government who takes care of you from cradle to grave.

@Trajan61 You know absolutely nothing about me, and yet you make the above statement.

And you're also so lazy that you use the same wording for a thread, apparently.

I had something in my eye there for a moment, I thought you wrote "Trump has done a good job so far undoing the damage done by that idiot Obama".

I'm pretty sure history will record "Obama did a great job undoing the damage done by that idiot Bush (with the Republican party fighting all the way), and then Trump sent us back into record deficits in a record short time". [nytimes.com]

@Paul4747 Obama doubled the US national debt. He was also the regulator in chief and seem intent on stifling the US economy with his idiotic regulations. . Hell stopping the keystone xl and the Dakota pipelines was just completely insane. At least the Economy is doing a lot better under Trump.

@Trajan61 Do you realize the harm being done by all these pipe lines? They have never made any sense, the oil companies could just as easily built REFINERY"S right there in the fields where they were pumping the product from. Without piping all the way to TEXAS. BUT THAT WOULD CUT INTO THEIR PROFIT!

@Trajan61 Thank you sir I thank I've located the problem idiot sit outside the refinery's in Texas any day and watch the tankers lined up to pick up the product to carry to your nearest station so you don't have to ride in an efficient ELECTRIC powered car!

@Trajan61 I bet you voted for tRUMP? So there's no reason to carry this any farther you only see what the great ORANGE one wants you to see, so have a wonderful day asshole!

@Trajan61 President Obama inherited not only Bush II's recession, but the tax policies that in part caused that recession. The debt was incurred largely due to diggin out of that recession. And yet under Obama the deficit went DOWN.

But don't take my word for it- here's Business Week (from a 2012 article).

"Say the words "budget deficit," and Republicans and Democrats begin screaming at each other about who's to blame.

Republicans howl that the deficit is President Obama's fault, because he has exploded government spending and failed to fix the economy.

Democrats roar that President Obama inherited a catastrophic economic mess, that this mess will take time to clean up, and that our massive deficit is therefore President Bush's fault.

So, who's right?

Let's start by looking at the deficits under Presidents Bush and Obama. Then we'll figure out what has caused them. Finally, we'll assign some blame.

President Bush, you will recall, inherited a budget surplus (the first in decades). Then, hit with a recession, he took the budget into deficit. Then he cut taxes, growing the deficit to $400 billion a year. Then, the economy boomed between 2005 and 2008, reducing the deficit to $200 billion a year. Then, the financial crisis hit, and the Bush deficit ballooned to $400 billion again.

In early 2009, President Obama took over, amid the worst recession since the Great Depression. Obama signed an $800 billion spending increase at the same time that GDP and tax collections tanked. The combination of these two factors--growth in spending and a drop in revenue--exploded the deficit to $1.4 trillion. In 2010 and 2011, the economy and tax collections improved modestly, and the deficit shrank to $1.3 trillion annualized.

So, what actually caused these deficits?

Republicans howl that President Obama has exploded the size of federal government spending in his short tenure as President, and it is true that he has increased it. But President Bush actually increased federal spending by more than 2X as much as Obama has. So it is unfair to lay the explosion in spending at the feet of President Obama: Both presidents are responsible.

The increase in government spending, meanwhile, is actually NOT the only factor that has caused the deficit. The other factor--equally if not more important--is the fall-off in government revenue (tax receipts).

This second and larger factor can be blamed on two things: First, the Bush tax cuts, which reduced revenue, and, second, the weak economy, which reduced the incomes and capital gains upon which most federal taxes are based.

President Bush cut taxes in 2001 and 2003. These tax cuts hit federal revenue, while federal spending growth continued apace. This combination ballooned the deficit in the early years of the Bush presidency.

By the middle years of the Bush presidency, however, on the strength of the housing boom and strong economic growth (much of which now looks like a debt-fueled mirage), federal revenues began to grow rapidly. By 2007, in fact, the gap had almost closed.

But then the bottom fell out. The housing bubble burst, the financial crisis hit, and the economy plunged into recession. And then President Bush handed President Obama the worst recession in more than 70 years and left Obama to clean up the mess.

This recession clobbered federal revenues (tax receipts--red line), which have only just regained their 2007 bubble highs. President Obama's stimulus, meanwhile, helped add about $600 billion to federal spending (blue line). The combination of these two factors ballooned the deficit from $400 billion when President Bush left office to ~$1.3 trillion now.

So, who's responsible for the massive deficit? This is a tougher question.

We know WHAT is responsible: The combination of tax cuts, weak government revenues (tax receipts), and a vast increase in government spending.

But figuring out WHO to blame is a more subjective exercise.

If you believe that the growth during the "Bush Boom" was a debt-fueled mirage--a theory that is certainly supported by the evidence--then you can lay the blame squarely at the feet of President Bush. His combination of reduced taxes and increased spending took the US from a surplus to a deficit, and even the economic boom from a massive housing bubble and enormous borrowing couldn't close the gap.

Even if you think the "Bush Boom" was real, moreover, the recession and financial crisis began on his watch, and the deficit was already exploding when President Obama took office. So it's very hard to escape the conclusion that President Bush bears a lot of the responsibility for our current mess.

On the other hand, President Obama's stimulus certainly hasn't had as big an impact on the economy (and, therefore, government revenues) as he and his advisors thought it would. Given the extent of the mess Obama inherited, it's possible that nothing would have fixed the economy by now. But even huge Obama supporters are justifiably frustrated with his over-promising, as well as with many of the decisions he has made.

So it seems fair to lay some of the responsibility for our current deficit at President Obama's feet as well.

But, of course, if we're doling out blame, we need to bring two other parties into the conversation.

First, Congress, which approved all of the decisions above.

Second, us--the American citizenry--the folks who voted Presidents Bush and Obama and Congress into office.

We cheered as President Bush and Congress ignited the housing bubble. We cheered as they cut taxes and increased spending (it's just so marvelous to have it all). We cheered as President Obama and Congress approved the stimulus and extended the Bush tax cuts. And we're cheering now as Republicans promise us that--if only we just cut taxes and spending--our problems will be solved. (Never mind the examples of Greece and the UK, which demonstrate clearly that enacting "austerity" in the midst of a fragile recovery doesn't work).

[businessinsider.com] (emphasis mine throughout)

@Paul4747 Obama was a regulation nut who passed so many regulations bussiness were stifled and hurt bad. Trump on the other hand is a bussiness man and understands how bussiness work so the economy is doing better now. Obama’s stimulus package was a joke and only helped a few people.

@Trajan61 You mean, Trump has decided that the polluters should run roughshod over the EPA like they did during the Bush administration, and shady financial deals should again be completely unregulated by the SEC? That megacorporations should pay a lower tax rate than family breadwinners? I agree, that is his point of view, and big business surely likes this kind of talk. So there has been a temporary economic bubble. But small businesses (the backbone of the economy) and the middle class are getting the same screwing-over that they've gotten by every Republican since Reagan. And serious economists (those not in the administration) are warning that this growth is going to trickle out, the tax cuts are shooting the deficit sky high, and our long-term growth will be maybe 3%, with a national debt that our great-grandchildren will be paying off if they're lucky.

You keep right on kidding yourself that Trump gives a shit about you or anybody that even looks like you, though. Trump is a malignant narcissist with no actual grasp of business principles. He thinks going bankrupt to get out of paying his bills is a "victory"... well, guess what, we as a nation can't default on our debt without the world economy going belly-up. And the only people he gives a damn about are his cronies, his family, and the people that are temporarily useful to him. (And I'm not too sure about his cronies, his family, or those other folks when it comes to crunch time.)

@Trajan61 i think i may have mentioned before, elsewhere, that your assertions are no less than delusional. your "facts" are fiction. you cannot have a valid opinion (although you have a perfect right to hold even an invalid opinion, even as i have a perfect right to laugh at it) based on alternative facts (some of us call them lies). if you are not a troll, they are not your lies, but you apparently have bought into them. if they are your lies, then you are a troll. i am not going to make a judgment right now about that. i will just leave this here.

g

@bandit321 If you don’t like pipelines you should be riding a mule as we don’t have a viable alternative to fossil fuels currently.

As hard as she promoted him, yes, probably. And then she would become another one they would point to and say, "Look! Trump is pro-women! LOOK how many women are on the team! STRONG women! It's a YUGE team of women!"

Total change of subject... I don't know a damn thing about fashion, but is it just me, or does Sarah H. Sanders (Trump spokes-tool) (and I ask this without personal criticism, she can wear what she wants, it just puzzles me) wear a lot of really ugly clothes? With the puffy shoulders?
Maybe it's the only way she stays safe from being groped...?

@Paul4747 HAH! I'm not the only one! I've wondered about this because I'm sure she could get a fashion consultant/buyer, etc. .... if she wanted one! Maybe she's just smart and doesn't want any of the groper's attentions?

@Paul4747 in her defense (and it pains me to defend her on any point) it is difficult for women of girth to find attractive clothing that fits, unless said women are super rich -- which she may or may not be. i have no idea. clothiers seem to think fat woman want to look as ugly as possible, or maybe the fashion industry actually feels that fat women deserve some kind of punishment. it is equally possible that sanders simply has dreadful taste. i may never know, but i thought i'd just throw out this, um, ALTERNATIVE explanation!

g

@Paul4747 I've had the same thought about Sarah's wardrobe...especially from the perspective of being NON-gropable! She's not an attractive woman and probably just tries to be unnoticed as far as wardrobe goes. Sadly, it seems nobody ever told her that a genuine smile is beautiful, while a sneering lip/squinting eye is not!

@LucyLoohoo Thing is, she's NOT unattractive. She's actually pretty good looking, when she's not being confused, annoyed, angry, irritated, and grouchy. See Exhibit A.

If she were a single woman, in my circle of acquaintances, hey, I would probably test the waters as to her availability, her attraction to me, and whatnot, if all I had to go on was her smile and appearance in this photo... if this were indicative of her overall personality.

I bet she's a fairly nice person overall, but she's been hired to lie for Trump. More likely, she has to make excuses for Trump based on the fragments of the truth that she knows, and is never given the real story on anything; yet she's instructed to make him look good for the press. She has an impossible job and the strain shows. I feel sorry for her.

@Paul4747 You're much more compassionate than I am!

@LucyLoohoo I, too, work for idiots. It gives me a "resting bitch face" if I have the right phrase. This may be her issue too. So I do feel bad for her on some level.

Not enough to forgive her for lying though.

@Paul4747 Nobody HAS to work in the environment where she is! Anyone with an ounce of self-respect would have walked out long ago.

@LucyLoohoo So hard to find Republicans with an ounce of self-respect these days...

Then again it seems that some are staying against their better judgement, just to keep the current occupant from starting a nuclear war in a fit of pique over a perceived insult to his Trumphood. So I'm conflicted. They really should be invoking the 25th Amendment in that case, he's incompetent.

@Paul4747 Let's assume there might be one or two with a genuine love of country and a genuine feeling of responsibility for maintaining the Constitution. I understand they'd be in a terrible position and possibly powerless. Anyone like that should just join the Democrats, reveal what they know and work for the honest objective of preserving the nation.

Do you see anyone like that?

Me, neither.

@Paul4747 Put a blonde wig on her and you will be wondering when Kermit is going to show up.

@Sticks48 Oh, now, that's just mean.

@Paul4747 l know. ?

"Schmuck" ?

I object to your characterization (insinuated by your misspelling) of all Republicans as racists. You have no evidence for such a sweeping assumption.

There are people of goodwill in all parties, independents, and non-voters. Only by reaching out will we rescue America from what we're becoming- a divided nation where we talk only to ourselves and categorize everyone else as an enemy.

John McCain was as honorable and decent as any human being could be. Regardless of political party and regardless of anything else. And he was certainly no racist.

The company you keep. I also use ameriKKKa. I have respect for Mr McCain as a former shipmate and thanked him for his Service and Sacrifice but the company you keep! Don't feel bad, don't care much for demoKKKrats either. But you speak like a true unhappy republiKKKan. Go on and troll as you wish.

@GipsyOfNewSpain Lifelong Democrat, since I voted for Mondale in 84. I'm not the one trolling here.

Ohferpetessake the man just died a horrible death.
FYI, Nobody will ever agree with another person 100%, that doesn't make them deserve scathing sarcasm.

Number one, yes, I'm a veteran... which, strictly speaking, was irrelevant to my post, but never mind. (No pun intended.)

Number two... don't believe everything you read in the papers. In 2004, when John Kerry was derided during the Republican convention (by no lesser of a luminary than formerly distinguished Democrat and sellout Zell Miller- rot in hell, Zell) for voting against a laundry list of weapons and aircraft and ships that were being used in the Iraq war, .McCain once again came to an "enemy's" defense and explained that he had voted against all the same things- because they were included in bloated and ridiculously expensive appropriations bills, full of pork for individual Senators' home states, and rightfully deserved to be voted down. Both Kerry and McCain then voted for new, clean bills that funded the needed items and nothing more.

I haven't researched more than superficially, but I feel confident in saying that McCain's No votes on veteran's issues are more in that vein. If a bill funding a veteran's center is also laden down with $10 billion to promote the coho salmon, I expect a responsible legislator to vote it down- then vote for the veteran's center alone. But in our age of Gotcha politics, it's the no vote that will get the attention.

As for being a "RINO"... if you're going to apply a litmus test to your party, you'll end up with a much smaller party. From where I sit, your Rhinos are the only kind of Republicans I can stomach.

@AnneWimseyJust think about all those who are also suffering from cancer and other debilitating illness and have no health insurance. I'm sure he wasn't left neglected like millions of other Americans are.

As he himself said, under torture, you do whatever you think will make the hurting stop. Who can realistically expect superhuman endurance out of a man who was held for five years? Who can say they did better? Who can say they would?

Anyone who claims they wouldn't break in the same situation is a liar or a fool (or a foolish liar). Our culture is poisoned with fantasies of Rambo breaking out of his chains and killing the evil torturer. IT WAS JUST A FUCKING MOVIE. Everybody wants to be a movie hero, but real heroes are those who endure hell and do the best they can.

Then on the flip side, we have Jack Bauer interrogating people by shooting their kneecaps off. Of course torture works! Just watch the TV! Except that it shouldn't work on Americans, because we're the good guys, and good guys are tougher! It only works on bad guys! They're such wussies!!

I heard idiotic arguments like this all through the Gitmo and Abu Ghraib debates, and my response was always: You watch too much TV.

I honor McCain most of all for standing up to Bush II and Trump on torture. Lesser men (ironically, supposedly Christians) think that we should take vengeance against enemies who torture Americans by torturing them in return. It's a truly decent human being who can suffer that hell and say, "I will not have anyone, even my worst enemy, put through that in my name."

@Paul4747 during my time in, I was fortunate that I never put in the position to endure torture...I like to think that if I was I would have the fortitude to endure, withstand and not do anything to bring shame on myself or anything to hurt or hinder my comrades...

I like to think and hope it but till I'm out in that position I'll never know...The folks who down talk McCain are ignorant if they feel they know how they would handle themselves and down right dumbasses for thinking they know how he should of handled himself...

The military has guidelines for the things your supposed to do if captured by the enemy....Those guidelines are awfully easy till the pain starts though.

@josh23452 I still have my field manual somewhere.

In my current job there's a constant (although extremely low) possibility of a hostage situation. We train for it, in theory. Once in a great while we stage a simulation, and a few people are simulated hostages, and others "rescue" them. The main idea is not to get taken in the first place. But if it should happen, we have guidelines on how to survive it and what to do while it goes on. You just have to hope you'll do the right thing.

I believe that while Mueller is republican, he will behave as a stereotypical FBI employee and let his work product speak for itself. I have seen Mueller present on cybercrime and his expertise is significant. He seems well qualified for this job and I hope his report is as thorough as it needs to be to reduce this interference/treason into the future.

Well said!

Fuck I hope that happens. Russia can have him.

You are delusional. Trump will never be indicted for anything.

@Trajan61 Maybe you are right. Him and his buddies are too busy looking for Hillary's e-mails. At least they are doing important things and stirring up the support base regularly. Nice to go into areas to have rallies often too. More division here than I've seen in my lifetime.

No way that is going to happen. The Russians won't take him. If they do, his life expectancy can be measured in days. He had one job to do and that was to get the sanctions lifted.

unfortunately I don't see that happening. Too used to the good life, and Putin will have no use for him once he is indicted.

@Petra He hasn’t done anything wrong. What are they going to indict him for. So far he’s done a great job undoing the damage done by that idiot Obama.

@Trajan61 What damage? I hope you enjoy Trump's more affordable healthcare, Denny. Do you see it yet? I don't either. Mine is still almost a zero co-pay. The secret is that I still have the same insurance and I switched nothing. I have friends that said their's doubled.

I know. It's hard to talk about this without starting to cuss Hillary. It must all be her fault.

What I fear is that it is NOT the end of the Republican Party, it is the NEW Republican Party.

If these people feel so strongly about rump that they are leaving, then why can't they grow some balls, stay there and fight him from within? In my eyes they are as bad as the people that support rump.

@patchoullijulie It's a trump Republican party now. trump isn't popular with the general public but has 85 - 90 % approval with Republicans. They were up for election in 2018 and would have to win their Republican primary. They knew that couldn't happen if they spoke their mind about trumps lack of truthfulness and character. So they did show courage and character by saying they would not seek reelection and then speaking out.

@rogueflyer Maybe so but I'm still not convinced it was the best way to protest him.

@Humanistheathen funny that you mention right wing education. I fully lay the blame for all of this at the conservative Christians running for (and taking over) local government, especially the school boards.

We all worry about the presidential elections, but whilst everyone was secure in Obama, the right wing was taking over local government at a frightening pace, finishing what they started in the 80s under Reagan,

This is why EVERY election matters, Even now, the least important person in government is anyone at the federal level (and it really should be the president that matters least), You are much more likely to run into and/or have to deal with your mayor/county sheriff/school board member, and those are the important ones (also the easiest to defeat, as they often run unopposed, and sometimes have votes in the dozens)

Vote in EVERY election, run if you can, get as involved in your local politics as you possibly can. That is what matters, and where we can make the greatest difference,

@Ozman You're right. That local process was the Tea Party playbook. I remember the Evangelicals encouraging and training their youth to go to law school in order to pack the courts. I had a relationship with the University of the Nations in Hawaii. part of Youth With a Mission. After 25 years or so it looks like they were successful.

I also disagreed with him more often than I agreed, but I never doubted he had the best interests of the US and Arizona at heart, and believed he was doing the best thing for the country and state.

@Ozman Hard to ask for more, really, if you're in a two-party system.