Agnostic.com

75 4

Can science and religion be reconciled?

I would like to propose a three-pronged approach:

(A-) From the historical point of view, the answer is Yes.
Thomas Dixon, in his very good and concise introduction "Science and Religion", writes: "Although the idea of warfare between science and religion remains widespread and popular, recent academic writing on the subject has been devoted primarily to undermining the notion of inevitable conflict. [...] there are good historical reasons for rejecting simple conflict stories." - - -
The same conclusion can be found in Peter Harrison's detailed historical analysis "The territories of Science and Religion" : "...the idea of a perennial conflict between science and religion must be false (...)".- - - -
And John Hedley Brooke in "Science and Religion" :
"The popular antithesis between science, conceived as a body of unassailable facts, and religion, conceived as a set of unverifiable beliefs, is assuredly simplistic." - - - "... an image of perennial conflict between science and religion is inappropriate as a guiding principle.".

(B. The personal point of view. - Again the answer is Yes.
There are real scientists who believe in a personal triune God, and in Jesus as their savior, and in the Bible as the word of god... and all the rest of Christian creed and dogma. These scientists assure us that they do not have 'split personalities' and I have no reason to doubt their testimony. They believe that God created the universe and life, and they see it as their job to analyse and describe and understand His creation. How they manage to do this without mentioning the Holy Spirit or the Divine Logos in their papers is up to them. Obviously they are able do this and they are respected by their peers.

(C.) The methodological point of view. - Here the answer is No!
Christian scientists may not have 'split personalities', but they have to practice what I would call a methodological atheism at work. As they enter the lab, they have to keep God out of their mind, or to encapsulate their belief. There is simply no possibility whatsoever to mix their work and their faith. Science as a method and religion as a faith can never form an alloy. Christian scientists may be motivated by their faith to work as scientists, to better understand His creation, but this motivation is confined to the personal level (B.)
The contents of their faith must never contaminate the method they have to apply so that the results of their work count as "science". The career of an evolutionary biologist would be over the very moment s/he opines publicly something like "The known mechanisms of evolution can only account for micro-evolution, but in order to explain macro-evolution we need a transcendent and divine force."

Matias 8 Sep 8
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

75 comments (26 - 50)

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

3

Sorry, but "B" of the 3 pronged approach (personal point of view) is invalid. If some scientists say they "believe" in the triune god, they are speaking of their RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. They are not speaking as scientists. Unless they (or anyone else) can inform me of a single speck of evidence of god (much less a triune god !!!!), then this "reconciliation" is only between 2 groups of people....religious people who also do scientific work....and religious people who do not. The actual field of science is not represented here.

Well-said!

@Matias I think our difference of opinion is largely semantics. I do not dispute your assertion that some scientists "believe"...and that some of them even take the bible seriously. In my response, I was referring to the heading of your post, in which you posed a question about science and religion. You may disagree, but I see the word science as referring to the disciplined procedures and rational thought that brings us to accepted "scientific knowledge". If you choose to include the personal musings of some people in the science community to be within the definition of science, I can not say that you are necessarily wrong. It just does not fit my own parameters of the word "science".

@Matias Just as 'nobody owns science' so too shoud be the mantra 'nobody owns religion.' After all, religion belongs to the people, not to any so-called authority or made-up deity! We determine our own religion, right? Religion is not set in concrete ... or is it?

Within most, if not all, organized faith communities, we can find outliers. Non-doctrinal, non-heirarchical, non-judgemental groups. And here we may even stumble upon the concept of 'universal priesthood' or the 'priesthood of all believers.' But these ideas are far from mainstream. Religion is slow to yield to any apparent progress. However, if religion is to have any long-term significance, it cannot be authoritative, punitive or unalterable. Religion with either evolve, or die.

0

No! ... unless you use a very loose definition of either science or religion. It's impractical to accept the biblical definition of creation or the time frame many religions have for the existence of EARTH.

0

Usually in a reconciliation one or both parties change their tune to come into agreement. Science and Christianity can reconcile by simply having all Christians admit that none of the assertions in the Bible relating to the natural world can be taken literally, and admitting that everything since the big bang has happened according to natural laws. In other words, narrow god's agency range to the time before the big bang. It is not necessary to do this with Taoism, Hinduism or Buddhism because in those philosophical traditions people are not required to believe in the literal truth of the stories (though many do anyway). The stories are there merely to provide mental pathways to concepts that transcend stories. Those concepts, by the way, are not inconsistent with modern science. Read Fritjof Capra's The Tao of Physics for more on that. ?

@TheMiddleWay
It is certainly good news that only 25% of Christians now believe in literal interpretations of the Bible. However, that's still 65 million people. Still way too many!

0

Only if the gods prove to be Aliens.

1

People want to believe in superstitious claptrap and all the science and logic in the world will never convince them otherwise. A reasonable society would just make sure the religious charlatans are unable to steal their money and molest their children.

0

No the idea of warfare between science and religion is not popular I would think most athesits are disgusted with the idea of war. Even if it is just arguing with someone. Actually let me take that back I went to a science convention once. But still if you have mountains of evidence you can see, feel, test, retest and retest on one side. And the other you have a book saying if you don't worship me I will torture you all time because I love you. With no evidence to back it up. Why believe at all.

Heres your christian "scientist".

Kent Hovind uses celery to "disprove" evolution. He also made a dick joke with it. Ok rightttt. Even when I was a christian i was not that dumb.

Right micro-evolution that happenned over billions of years from people that believe that they world is only 6000 years old.

Your using micro-evolution in place of evolution is a nice trick of words I barely caught it. One example of micro-evolution I can think of is birds. We have seen bird families have one trait, and their offspring another. Then something happens that the offspring with a trait that better alllows them to survive that event changes their offsprings traits. And so on and on.

1

Can Einstein and the Tooth Fairy be reconciled?

lerlo Level 8 Sep 9, 2018

@Matias depends on which definition of reconcile you want to use...I choose "to make consistent" and therefore the answer is no. Using any other definition and the answer is whatever you want it to be.

@Matias Sorry, you're asking to reconcile fact and fiction. The Big Bang theory and all other excuses for the existence of our planet have ZERO to do with god. Because some guy says it, no matter how revered he might be to you doesn't make it so. Because you then have to answer the question did god just stop after creation? What's god doing now and you have your self fulfilling prophecy. The problem with all those arguments is accepting the initial premise which is always bullshit and unprovable: "IF scientist A believes that God created the universe as we know it and that it is an honour for him or her to study His creation." Notice the IF at the beginning? Start with b.s and you end up with b.s. If I think that you're our next president does that make it so?

@Matias Not in my world

0

I thought about getting into this discussion then it came to me -
With all the other shit going on who gives a damn!

Welcome to the discussion. Thank you for your post. ?

4

I've said it before, and I will say it again (and someone said it before me)

If civilisation ended tomorrow, and we had to start over, eventually, all of our scientific knowledge would be re-created, and would be exactly the same as it is today (well, the stuff we have right)

Religion would never be re-created exactly the same.

Ozman Level 7 Sep 9, 2018

@Matias but would the religions evolve (yep, used that word on purpose 😉 ) the exact same way? There's no doubt there would be religions, but the odds of them being the same are (again, wait for it) astronomical. Yet, E=MC^2 will always be E=MC^2

@TheMiddleWay Really, you live in a country that still clings to feet and pounds and degrees Fahrenheit and you're suggesting that we might have different units of measure, and not having ms^2 is going to invalidate all scientific theory? The thing is, the law is the law, and nothing will change that. Not order of discover, not order of operations, not standards of measurements. C is C, no matter what,

But there is no discernible difference between pounds and kg (well, absent one being a measure of weight, the other being a measure of mass, so on earth's surface), just the numbers are different. And despite the efforts of religion and the anti-science administration, 2+2 STILL =4

0

It depends if a Good God really exists or not and if heaven and hell really exist or not. No 1 can prove a negative (prove that neither exist). If even one of the two exists, then it's half and half.

a good, omnipotent creator does not exist. it defies reason. it defies observable fact.

a good god who commits people to eternal punishment for finite transgressions does not exists, it defies the meaning of the word "good" in every way.

a being capable of influencing nature or the fate of man "supernaturally" may exist, it is not falsifiable, but given no evidence of such influence in any form, it is as dismissable as fairies and leprechauns.

@HereticSin a good, omnipotent creator does not exist. it defies reason. it defies observable fact. " It depends on definition of "Good" and "Reasoning". God's logic and reasoning may be different from ours. E=MC2 is based on assumption that speed of light is constant and nothing moves faster than speed of light (2 illogical proven scientific facts). Same with Quantum physics. Also definition of "Good" is subjective. Many white Americans LOVE Nazis and Adolf Hitler, but jews and most Americans hate Hitler and he is the symbol for evil.

@rayfunrelax E=MC2 isn't reasoning, non sequitur.

IF A isn't A, and things can be both true and false, or neither, for God, then he doesn't have a "different' logic, he's illogical.

if "good" means "wants humanity to suffer", then you've got a fucked up dictionary.

"it depends on the definition" is nothing more than redefining words to try to pretend that something impossible might exist.

@HereticSin Human Brain is only 3LBs. Just like a pig cannot add 2+3 = 5, our brain and logic, reasoning, emotions, etc....are not infinite (very limited). I agree that out of billions of planets and stars, the odds of god existing are pretty low (I am myself agnostic) but there is no PROOF that god does not exist. Just like there is no proof that human has no soul or there are no angels even though the odds are less than 1 in a billion.

2

Religion has historically been used to explain that which is unknowable. As scientific knowledge has increased, the religious justification was no longer a valid premise. In darker times, having a scientific theory or even a proof, placed the scientist in mortal danger for challenging the church’s authourity over knowledge. Science and religion can never be resolved in my opinion based solely upon historical records of which even the bible is party to.

2

I don't think they can. Religion keeps loosing footage over science because facts can be kept hidden only while the cloud prevails. The cloud keeps getting thiner out of hard work from the science side of the equation, not out of kindness and understanding from religion. At the end of times, science will be around and religion will be forgotten. That doesn't necessarily mean they will reconcile.

2

I could have said that in twelve words. Wordiness does not equate to knowledge.I keep it short and simple. One extra word not needed should be cut out. Keep it simple!!

no-oh...

Concisely stated. ty

2

I am 100% an atheist. However I can only know my own mind, belief is a weird human phenomenon. I think it can only really be accounted for by brain chemistry or something, however there are people who are incredibly educated and active scientists who believe. Their argument is not that they believe the Bible creation stories, but they are mind-blown by the universe, and the complexity of the biological world. Their exposure to science intensifies their wonder and belief in the “oneness” of “the creation” a.k.a the interconnection and interdependence of the universe and all things in it. I have heard scientists say things like “God is Maths” or that they are profoundly spiritually moved by the amazing adaptation of genes to the environment. It doesn’t mean they signed up to Genesis’ creation myths or Noah’s Ark or even the “intelligent design” theory. Belief, and lack thereof, is varied and personal, so I don’t go in for arguments that deal in binary opposition and reductionism. All humans are full of incongruous behavior and belief.

Livia Level 6 Sep 9, 2018
5
5

that which does not exist cannot be reconciled with science.

@TheMiddleWay Even if God exists, it must be a very disgusting, deplorable being! Fuck God!

3

The entire question is fallacious. '"The known mechanisms of evolution can only account for micro-evolution, but in order to explain macro-evolution we need a transcendent and divine force..."' This is ridiculous. In what sense does evolution on any level need to be "explained" by a divine force, unless one is assuming that evolution has an ultimate goal? Evolution explains itself. Natural selection over generations results in complex forms of life arising from simple forms of life. There's no need for a further explanation, unless one starts with the a priori assumption that human life was the goal to begin with. It wasn't. But for an accident of history, we could have been miniraptors debating why hairless mammals never got farther along.

@Matias It's not obvious, given the rest of your post. Furthermore, I doubt whether any evolutionary biologist would have such a thought to begin with.
The vast majority of scientists view "God", if they think of one at all, in the sense that Einstein did- the physical laws of the universe, the beauty of all things, the forces that act unseen on us all. Not a personal god, but the cosmos itself. There are very very few serious scientists (outside the "Intelligent Design" movement) who believe in a personal god in the sense of the Bible.

2

I would give it a big F.

3

As long as religious people attack science to justify ridiculous, debunked claims made by their holy books, science and religion cannot be reconciled.

While their are religious people spouting absurdities like "evolution is just a theory," or "there is no evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old," religion cannot be given a pass when their claims contradict facts.

JimG Level 8 Sep 8, 2018
6

There is nothing to reconcile. Science and religion are in different categories. It’s like asking if art can be reconciled with mathematics.

Science deals in objective reality. It makes observations of nature and discovers mathematical equations that model those observations. Science is good at describing what is, but does not deal in the WHY. It would be futile to ask a physicist why space is granular, why time does not exist, or why matter pops in and out of existence. It just does.

Religion, metaphysics and philosophy are free to deal in the subjective reality. Religion in no way presents a credible body of logical, testable assertions. That’s not what it’s about. Religion is about awe, enlightenment, self-realization, awareness, appreciation and gratitude. It is true that some religious organizations promote a God concept, but that concept merely represents a metaphorical symbol for the overwhelming reality beyond the space/time/matter model of our senses.

It does not surprise me at all that half of all US scientists today say they believe in God, and I am not surprised that nearly all the founders of modern physics expressed deep religious sentiments.

Here’s Niels Bohr:

  • I feel very much like Dirac: the idea of a personal God is foreign to me. But we ought to remember that religion uses language in quite a different way from science. The language of religion is more closely related to the language of poetry than to the language of science. True, we are inclined to think that science deals with information about objective facts, and poetry with subjective feelings. Hence we conclude that if religion does indeed deal with objective truths, it ought to adopt the same criteria of truth as science. But I myself find the division of the world into an objective and a subjective side much too arbitrary. The fact that religions through the ages have spoken in images, parables, and paradoxes means simply that there are no other ways of grasping the reality to which they refer. But that does not mean that it is not a genuine reality. And splitting this reality into an objective and a subjective side won't get us very far.

Edwin Schrodinger:

Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.

Yes!

This book is an interesting read. You seem to grasp larger concepts. I'd be interested in your opinion.

@Fibonacci1618 Thanks, I’ll check it out.

@Matias Good point. If we seem science and religion as contradicting each other, we can reconcile them in our minds through analysis.

@TheMiddleWay Thanks, I’ll check into that.

@Fibonacci1618 I’ve briefly looked at the book, and I’m sort of floored. I’m not a psychic kind of person—not at this time. I am open to psychic ideas from a philosophical perspective. Maybe our entire conscious experience is one big psychic phenomenon.

I’ll keep the book on my iPhone and try to work my way through it—try to understand and relate. Do you have some of those psychic experiences yourself?

@WilliamFleming whether it's called psychic or simulation theory it's still an interesting phenomenon. To asnwer your question, yes. Whether you call it déjà vu or something more elaborate is argumentively semantical variations I think. But the scientific theories and associations in the book are quite interesting. The fusing of frequencies and wave theory especially. Thanks for the update on the reference.

@Fibonacci1618 I just read about simulation theory on Wikipedia. It reminds me of Donald Hoffman and his theory of Conscious Realism. That is something that seems to resonate.

@WilliamFleming we use symbolism to communicate. Whether it's English or French Numbers or words, it's our ability to translate it into knowledge that counts. Hence my interest in all avenues of it. Glad to know that you learned something new about simulation theory sir.

0
6

No need! Science is hogwash and the bible is all the truth we need! Oh and the earth is a few hundred years old, flat and the center of the universe, and i didn't read everything you wrote because i have the bible to back me up 😀. Muahahaha!!!

2

HOW. They never were in agreement from the beginning. WHY would you want to reconcile them?
What would be gained? Believe me, astrophysicists will not be talking about the "triune god." This brings up the question of why should anyone else be talking about gods in such a serious way.

3

No. Science relies on the scientific method: that truth requires demonstrable, repeatable results. Religion requires the suspension of the scientific method.

2

A) Historical - NO. So many tenets of religion have been shown to be false. From origin in 7 days, to floods that didn't happen, to lack of Jewish in Egypt and the list goes on and on. No record of Jesus in Roman times, etc...
B) Personal - maybe. I don't begrudge that religion offers some solace to the very naive. We're all naive to some things. No one really understands the truth and that is why science is so important because it shows some of the truth to us one theory, one experiment, one proof at a time. So if religion taints your worldview and you try to make science represent that view it is a cripple. It will lead down false paths.
C) Material - no but you made a good enough case for this although it could be expanded upon.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:174495
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.