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Is there anyone here that values the teachings of the bible, but rejects it's supernatural elements?

I believe in objective ethics, and a lot of good ethics overlaps with biblical values. Reason tells me that religious communities have a lot of successful values we can adopt. But it's the dogma and reliance on faith that gets me sad about religious communities.

Wrain62 4 Oct 30
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2

I do. The bible tells you how to treat others, though it is my nature to be kind and respectful of others.

3

Could simply be that the message to be good to each other is something we all know instinctively at birth and find difficult to reject.

@TheMiddleWay I disagree. The first time I killed something I didn't need someone to tell me it felt wrong. Same with the first time I was mean to someone. Same with every time I make someone cry. You just know some things are wrong

@TheMiddleWay
Studies on biological altruism suggest that many of the behaviors we call ethical or moral have biological roots. Culture is called into play more often as a corrective against evolutionary mismatch - when the environment changes more rapidly than the biology can adapt to it.

One such major change in environment was the agricultural revolution, which was followed shortly by the rise of organized religion.

It looks to me that many of our basic moral behaviors originate from our biology, but are fortified and corrected by religion and other cultural input. But our inclination to create culture, itself, is also probably biologically based, so none of it is going away anytime soon (unless we all go with it).

When we started living in cities, our instinctual morality wasn't up to the task, so our culture had to pick up the slack. We had to teach each other how to get along with others who were not our direct kin. Cultural altruism evolved.

In addition to the golden rule, etc., most religions also teach lessons on how to transcend ego identity toward the goal of generating less suffering for self and other. This is not totally outside the realm of the golden rule, but a further refinement of it.

@TheMiddleWay We can convince ourselves anything is OK. People justify morally wrong things all the time. It is kinda what people do. I am not suggesting you can't train/educate or go against the way you feel but reasoning through something is hardly how you feel about it. People can also detach how they feel about things or ignore them if convenient. Justified or not I would find it surprising to hear someone say killing something (anything) felt right. I could even understand not feeling anything at all

@TheMiddleWay
Yes, that's about how I see it. Our biology gives us tendencies but doesn't force us (in most cases) to do it. Our current and local culture tells us which natural impulses are to be expressed or denied and how, when, etc.

@TheMiddleWay Perhaps. For me people add all the grey to justify actions that go against our morality? I mean that is always how I have viewed it. I mean when I internalize that discussion when I have been a shitty human those are the things I try to make myself feel better about it. Convincing myself I did the "right thing" given the circumstances when the circumstances don't really matter how I made someone feel is what matters. Morally it can still be/feel wrong but we can still allow ourselves to feel justified in our actions.

@skado ...like dress codes for
school..

2

I value any good point made regardless from where that point comes, and the bible is no exception to that rule for me.

My Muslim friend said to me that without god we would have no morals. We would be savages, raping and murdering our way through life. So if you accept that (insert religion here) excusively teaches a particular moral then you empower the rest of the religion too and that is probably dangerous. I don’t believe in cherry picking

@Nardi I'm seriously creeped out by theists who feel they would rape, murder and rob folks if they thought there was no God. Wtf is wrong with those people? Like, maybe don't do those things because they harm others? Fucking degenerates if you ask me.

@Nardi You might then ask your friend to explain the Pakistani grooming gangs in Telford, Rotherham etc? Apparently they were all devout brothers who the message of moral behaviour failed reach despite religion in abundance.

@LenHazell53 He would just say they are not muslims. It would only be a problem if the judicial system sanctified their actions because of the religion. Which it didn't. And i don't see any muslim protests demanding they be released.

@Nardi So, we have to make-up a god and pretend he is speaking to us, and pretend we are listening to him, when all along, we are the ones deciding what is right and what is wrong and implementing rules of our own behavior?

@Nardi

"i don't see any Muslim protests demanding they be released." conversely we did not see any Muslims shopping their perverted brothers to the police either, did we?

So in the end that answer is just a variation on the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy, which does not address the contention at all.

Contention: Religion gives you morals
Counter: Here is proof religious people behaving in an immoral manner
Counter contention: If said people behave in an immoral manner they cannot be religious as religion gives you morals.

Circular reasoning, self supporting lie.

It is reminiscent of the the old theological excuse for war

The Bible says though shalt not kill, however, you may kill and god will forgive you afterward if it is politically or religiously expedient.

@LenHazell53 I agree. Not trying to defend any religion.

There may be some good things in the bible, but so what? There are good thing every where I have ever looked. I do not do something and then search to see if what I do, lines up with the bible. That would be a waste of time for me. I read the bible because it makes it easier for me to communicate on the same level with most Christians, and I end up knowing more about what their bible says than what they know about it.

@Nardi bio genetics--space
travel;pleasing gawd is not
a human priority.Saving a
species should be...human species?️

6

I don't value or respect the teachings of the Bible. It's necessary to cherry pick the bits that are ethically sound, which means we're already applying our own standards of morality to the text to distance ourselves from the teachings about killing disobedient children, adulterers, homosexuals, workers on the Sabbath, etc., the teachings that women could have no authority over men and shall not teach men, the tacit approval of slavery, the treatment of women as property, and on and on. But what about "turn the other cheek" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," I hear someone ask. Ah, that's where the cherry picking begins. Jesus says some peaceful things, but even within the Gospel there's a difference in tone and message depending on where you're reading. Jesus also says that he hasn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, that he has come bearing a sword rather than an olive branch, that he's here to turn parent against child, sibling against sibling, and neighbor against neighbor, that you should leave your family, sell your belongings, and give no thought to the future because the end times are upon us. You can read into Christian scripture almost anything, because it says almost everything. This is why liberals think of Jesus as a hippy who gives away free healthcare and cares about poor people and conservatives see him as a capitalist who says if you don't work you don't eat. It's the reason the KKK thinks Jesus supports them in their hate. As much as I dislike the Westboro Baptist Church, everything they stand for is in the Bible and can be fully justified by scripture; they're living their faith. And I haven't even gotten to the motivations of Paul and others who used the early Christian movement to their advantage, twisting it for social influence to bring about political change in ways that may or may not have been worthy at the time but have no bearing today. So, no, I don't value the teachings of the Bible. Whatever areas of overlap exist is irrelevant and when people identify with one passage that sounds reasonable they're more likely to accept the more questionable teachings of that anthology text. It's better, I think, to ignore the teachings of the Bible (but not be ignorant of them) and use secular ethics to guide our lives.

5

If you can't tell the difference from right and wrong,
you don't lack religion, you lack empathy.

No need for an ancient book to tell you that.

@VictoriaNotes ok

9

You assume that there are "the teachings of the bible". But the book contradicts itself numerous times and then there are multiple interpretations. By ignoring the supernatural you are cherry picking and when you choose which part you like you add another layer of cherry picking. Sorry but this approach seems worthless to me. You already have a moral compass. You already know what you think is morally correct. In the bible you will find nothing new. There are a lot of better books to get inspired by that don't also condone murder, rape, genocide, slavery ect. ect.

Dietl Level 7 Oct 30, 2018

That about sums it up.

@TheMiddleWay
You don't seem to know what cherry picking is. Your examples of learned things are not necessarily cherry picking. It is about ignoring certain aspects of a thing in order to still believe in the value of that thing. In this case it is about remaining to see the bible as a moral authority only by ignoring certain parts.
It's a subtle difference, I know, but your comments misses the point of what I was trying to say. Choosing to pick what you like from the bible is not a bad thing but then you have to be aware what the source of your morality is. In this case it is you, not the bible.

1

Some, certainly not all. Remember, the Bible is only a collection of stories.... Written by man... So it's actually the teachings of man from a long time ago.

@OwlInASack many TV shows, movies. Plays, are based on overcoming evil and being good...

2

There’s nothing original in that book ?

Nardi Level 7 Oct 30, 2018

@TheMiddleWay It's actually ridiculous to say that however if a book claims to be the truth and is then found out to be a fraud then yes its worthless or worse still..dangerous.

4

I think you've got it backwards, good ethics existed long before the bible

@TheMiddleWay i agree but your post addressed good ethics not bad. additionally your opening statement seemed to present the bible as the source of good ethics. if i misunderstood, i apologize.

@TheMiddleWay oops.....just realized you were not the original poster. replace "your post" with the OPs post and "your opening statement" with the OPs opening statement and i take back my apology 😉

2

There is one all important teaching you can get from the bible, if not find in the bible, and that is.
Don't base your whole life on just one book, if you do read more than one book make sure they are not all derived from one book, and if you can only read one book try to find a better one.

...yes- drinking the coolAID
does get folks dead⚠️

@BBJong Wow thanks! You just taught me an Americanism (British) I did not know. Coolaid: I will remember that one.

6

"The teachings of the Babble"... not so much........do you mean sacrificing your only child? Pimping out your wife for grazing land? Sleeping with your daughters after your wife gets turned into a pillar of salt? How about offering your daughter to a raging mob? Worshipping a gawd who kills off your entire family, gives you dire physical problems, and reduces you to poverty...but then "replaces" all of it.
Or, on a bigger scale, burning & pillaging & raping/murdering entire countries because your gawd told you it was yours? (Oh, wait.........)

@Donotbelieve ta for the reminder!

6

What a colossal waste of time..... What's the value in trying to find meaning in obscure and cryptic passages of a specific place and time completely out of our own context?

@TheMiddleWay Well, I did post my comment as an open question without even thinking that will invite for answers. Totally my bad. That wasn't the intention. One last comment though. Anyone is free to use their time as they see fit and they can find meaning on anything of their choosing. I am just saying I wouldn't spend my time on any bible reading at all.

1

In my opinion, there is very little to value in the bible that was not already there before the bible or has been replaced by modern humanist society.

@TheMiddleWay Your opinion is noted as is mine.

4

The general teachings of the bible dealing with basic human behavior in terms of ethics and some of the morals are things that all peoples of the world have known and to one extent or another have adhered to from sometime before we left the African savanna. There is nothing particularly unique about what is spelled out in the bible and what was delineated in the Code of Hammurabi. Even the 'Golden Rule' is not original. So, it makes no difference where one picks up their generally accepted values/morals/ethics as long as they are picked up and implemented. There is equally no reason whatsoever to refer to them as biblical. They are human and they have been developed over the entire time we have been evolving. Something else to consider: We continue to evolve and our values/morals/ethics are subject to change as we do so.

@TheMiddleWay -- I didn't say the bible has no value. Hell, I didn't even allude to it. I also did not say anything at all about the requisite for being valuable was originality. I said that it makes no difference where one gets their 'generally accepted' morals, values, ethics, etc. as long as they have them and put them into practice. There is nothing unique about them. They are human values established through deep time, and they are fluid, subject to continued change and refinement.

I once reduced the bible to its actually applicable philosophies of life and wound up with 3 pages of double-spaced, typewritten material and I'm sure I could have trimmed it down even further. I know this is cliche, but this sentence actually sums it up: Don't be a dick.

4

The "teachings of the bible?" The bible is a 2000 year old book written by people who were four hairs removed from orangutans. There is nothing of value to be learned from the bible. It's filled with Iron Age superstition, scientific ignorance, immorality, contradictions, and outlandish claims of magical beings who wield infinite supernatural power.

It;s Mother Goose with gods, well, god.

If you favor science over superstition you must surely be aware that people who lived two millennia ago were not one hair closer to orangutans than we are today.

2

Objective ethics is kind of a sham. There's plenty of reasons why crimes can happen and be well justified. Beyond that you need to specify what you mean by removing the super natural elements. Removing the character of God or changing him to be a human both have dire consequences on the narrative so unless what you're trying to say is "is there value for the Bible if you cherry pick currently valid norms?" The answer would be yes.

@Tibert I'm reasonably certain the only value fifty shades gives us how to identify an abusive boyfriend

2

Similar to Confucius and his anelects, the old testament likely codified certain practices in ancient society that were widespread in acceptance(for whatever reason)and contributed to societal stabilization.
The new testament, was an attempt to reconcile a modern day teacher(Jesus) to these Torah stories, in the process to establish a new church.
Today we live in a post-christian world. While our laws and mores are based on Christian values, very few actually believe the underpinning beliefs.

...well put

0

The ethics you are pushing here are subjective ethics so I cannot go along with this idea at all. For the most part religions do not have ethics. You post is similar to saying Superman can run fast and he is strong, but he cannot fly.

1

I think there'd be far fewer assholes in the world, if Christians actually followed the teachings of the man they are supposed to follow. To me, Jebus' teachings are the important part, it is totally irrelevant if he is the Son of God or not. Plus, the entire thing of Christ is My Savior, really is only a selfish way to ensure you get to Heaven, not whether you gave a plug about humanity or being nice to people.

2

Yes, I think JC was a pretty tough, smart guy and I agree with most of what he reportedly taught. There’s nothing divine or unique there—other books are equally interesting.

Hindu scriptures especially attract me. Those ancient Indians actually addressed the deep questions of existence while the Hebrew Bible is a mixture of myth and history.

...no patent on ethics
...constant update

6

Why does it always have to be the bible. There are other early writings that can have just as much (or even more) positive teachings. For instance Greek writings as the Iliad and Odyssey.
Also the Bible(s) (there are more than one version) has gone through a lot of transformations over the Millennia and every age put it's own values on the book. Right now the whole idea of Christian dogma is being upended to "the ends justify the means." Not a good example of ethics.

See my comment here and link and statement refered to therein. Zackly.

1

See my post with the link to the video about fairly recent findings from Sumerian clay tablets and archeological artifacts from millenia ago. Copied down and translated from Mesopotamia through Babylonian, Akkadian, Phoenician, Egyption, Hebrew; abbreviated and used in the brief compendium called the Bible.

.truely-thanks
We need more of this type
Info-the ball was dropped generations
ago...

8

That which is good in the bible is not original, and that which is original is most certainly not good.

So NO.

Well stated.

4

Thou shall not kill, Thou shall not commit adultery. To me, these are common sense. God made these laws and he himself broke them, so "F" the bible

Thank you.

3

Very selectively sure, Ive learned some valuable things. I do wish I hadnt been forced/brainwashed into wanting to study it in as much detail as I did though. I could have gotten the good parts down in a day or two worth of sparks notes and casually read the few more interesting, poetic books over a summer. The main value in learning the bible as well as I did isnt because of its intrinsic value: its being unshakable in my lack of faith because I know more about the bible than 90% of christians.

Id second the others who remind you that the best biblical ethics didnt exactly originate there, but I agree in not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There are plenty of benefits of myths and ritual to be gleaned and adapted from the religious. Id stress an equal study of eastern philosophy and ethics too, to help you see the similarities and differences between abrahamic and eastern cosmologies.

.yes- could we imagine the culture
if religion never occurred?Science
says even animals have empathy!!!!

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