That's how I feel about the subject as well. There are many things that I would put a stop to if I could... and considering a God SHOULD be powerful enough to but doesn't leads me to believe it doesn't exist.

@TheMiddleWay
If your child were being raped by let's say a priest, and you were there, and you were powerful enough to stop it. Would you stop it from happening, or just chalk it up as a learning experience for the child?

@TheMiddleWay: I'll give you the bike example. But what control do we have over catastrophic natural disasters like earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes or other devastating weather events? And what about famine and pestilence? "god" would have power over these that we do not. Why does it not exercise that power? It is either a sadist or non-existent.

Your statement reminds me of Stephen Fry in this interview:

@TheMiddleWay using your logic, your God should kill all of us immediately so we can be with him. This whole bunch of crap of "learning a lesson" is just a human construct. What god needs to teach lessons? Isn't he capable of creating something that doesn't need to be taught lessons? Isn't he capable of creating something that does not have flaws that need to be corrected? Is he so incapable that he made things that were flawed and needs to correct them en route to "a better place"? Then he's no god. All this stuff is just made up so the power elite of the religion can control people to give them money and to give them power. There are no gods.

@TheMiddleWay I try to use Occam's razor. Illiterate farmers and shepherds created religion to use against their own for power and control. No other explanation works better than that - no "god simulation" necessary.

God give to us authority for our world. Since men are separate from God, men has been doing everything like you are seen. Is not God guilty, is ours. What are you doing to change the bad situation that you see?

@rickarto First, prove your god exists, then we can talk about how silly he is.

@iamjc your statement is unclear.

Well maybe, but god certainly makes my sports team better...

"Deity" and "Gods" are man made opinions that led to the "belief" of a hire being to change the views of the people to their own. For example, the Conquistadors that arrived in mexico brought Christianity to the picture. Changing the appearance of the Virgen de Guadalupe to conform the natives. Skin color, facial, the way the dress... Natives became slaves and thousands of years of history lost for the word for "God"

@Chicano34 Hire Power? Lol

@Chicano34. You are right, and it is called syncretism.

@TheMiddleWay It is not necessary to prove God doesn't exist. The believers are making a claim of existence. The default position is to not believe until the claim is proven. There is no need to prove non-existence. That would be like asking someone to prove fairies don't exist.

@Profesao yeh you hire the power to do your bidding. “God” doesn’t shoot lightning bolts at your foes for free.

@TheMiddleWay respectfully wtf are you talking about? That post leads me believe you don’t have a basic high school understanding of the scientific process.

Yeah, you're obviously just using a different definition than the OP.

Narrow definition "atheist", broad definition "agnostic":

P = god

Objectively: P or ~P

Subjectively:

Do you believe P?
Do you believe ~P?

YN: the(os)-ist
NN: agnost(os)-ic
NY: athe(os)-ist

"Agnostic atheist" doesn't describe a specific position, even using your definitions. Those 4 positions models a-theists pass around are false dilemmas.

The atheist believes there is no god. The agnostic does not believe there is a god. These are not equivalent positions.

@TheMiddleWay: I go along with you most of the way until the very end. As an agnostic, I may indeed be unable to render judgement on whether god exists, but I can certainly state whether I believe something or not.

@TheMiddleWay: I'll go halfway with you again. I can't state that I believe something. I CAN state that I do not believe something.

Right you are, but it can be argued that there is no evidence that there isn't a god. This is a circular argument. You don't give any support or reason for not believing, sorry to disagree with your stance, but as an agnostic, I am looking for answers.

I have a talking unicorn, but no one else can see it. You just have to believe me.

The burden of proof is on me for trying convince you I have a talking unicorn. The burden of proof is not on the person saying talking unicorns don't exist.

Just because you can't prove something is false, doesn't make it possible or true.

I like your answer. Here is my take on why I can't believe in a god. I believe that we are intelligent animals ( well most of us) ones with a sense of self, a thinking animal with the largest brain pan and brain, given our size. The chimps and great apes come close, but we humanoids have the ability to anticipate and foresee the future and know that we will like all humans, die at some future date. It might be argued that chimps and the great apes may have the same ability, and perhaps they do. But here is the difference, we have gods, and as far as I, or the scientists know, at least for the time being, we don’t think chimps do. So it begs the question, why us? Is there a god or is this a construct we create? I think the answer is straightforward; it is within our nature to imagine a god or gods, because It is a coping mechanism. We know we will die, and because it is hard to accept the fact that we too will go back to nothingness as will our loved ones, so in order to keep our sanity and as a means of coping with this horror, we create a god and afterlife. In other words, there is no god without man, god didn’t create us, we created him/her. This makes life bearable, especially so in man’s early going, during those dark hard days, when life was short and brutal. As we advanced over time, became educated, understood thru science how things, nature and the universe works, developed labour saving devices and found free time to learn and grown intellectually, many of us have evolved to the point where we see religion, with all its contradictions and hypocrisy for what it really is, an imagined construct to get us thru the night, a night light if you will, to scare off the devil or the boogey man under your bed. My contention is supported by the fact that religion especially prospers in those poor parts of the world or the country where education is lacking, superstitious runs rapid, and life is hard and brutal. For the poor and the oppressed god and an afterlife makes life bearable, just like it did in the dark past. For the better educated and more free minded, those not held back by religion teachings and traditions, they are equipped to study the genesis of beliefs and religions, to see their fault lines, their lack of logic and hypocrisy, and are better able to form their own beliefs about the nature of man and his need for god, or not.

Seriously, more non-theists choose "nothing" or "agnostic" on surveys, than those who choose "atheist". If you have no belief a god exist, not a belief gods do not exist, it's you that's simply an agnostic, and doesn't know it.

This came first ...

"Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe." ~ Thomas Huxley, 1884

^Fully covered belief. He was a scientist. His ism amounts to a form of demarcation. No objective testable evidence = a subjective unfalsifiable claim. Results: unscientific and inconclusive. No belief as to the truth, or falsehood, of the claim. Incompatible with theism, a belief a god exists. Incompatible with narrow definition atheism, a belief no gods exist.

This came later, fully acknowledged it was new, fully acknowledge it was hijacking the agnostic position into atheism ...

"In this interpretation an atheist becomes: not someone who positively asserts the non-existence of God; but someone who is simply not a theist. Let us, for future ready reference, introduce the labels ‘positive atheist’ for the former and ‘negative atheist’ for the latter.

The introduction of this new interpretation of the word ‘atheism’ may appear to be a piece of perverse Humpty-Dumptyism, going arbitrarily against established common usage. ‘Whyever’, it could be asked, ‘don’t you make it not the presumption of atheism but the presumption of agnosticism?’" ~ Antony Flew, 1984

And, "agnostic atheist" doesn't describe a specific position, even using your definitions. An agnostic weak/negative atheist, with no belief or knowledge either way? Or, an agnostic strong/positive atheist, who believes no gods exist, but doesn't claim to know?

I respectfully disagree. I started calling myself an atheist when I came to believe that humans invent religions to help them cope with reality and I do believe that there are no gods. I am not lacking a belief and it kind of low-key bothers me when people say I'm 'lacking' something because of my viewpoint. I am ok with using the word belief. As much as I feel as if I know that there are no gods, no one can truly know any of that. Therefore, I feel, for me, that it only makes sense to have the humility to call that a belief. Just my take on it, but I'll keep an open mind.

I get it, but that doesn’t prove that there isn't a god. Those who believe in god, say he gives us free will and doesn't interfere, so we are back at the start. Here’s what I think, for what it’s worth; I think god is a creation of man as a means of coping with a hard and cruel life. It makes life bearable knowing that a much better place awaits you in an afterlife. You will find god alive and well among the poor, uneducated, and most superstitious of peoples, but not so much among the better educated and well-off who see the lies, hypocrisy and hate on which religion thrives. Religion is like a night light for scaring off the bogey man under your bed, and it’s a promise of a better, happier afterlife once this horrible one comes to an end. If you do believe in god, but displease him you will be sent to burn in hell for ever and ever without end, but keep in mind, god loves you.

@billins There is proof that god doesn't exist as an all knowing, all powerful and all good single being. The evil in the world argument.

Anyway, who cares? Atheists don't believe in god. We don't need a reason to not believe in an illogical, unscientific concept that is totally unsupported by facts. I also don't believe in Santa Claus. Do you ask me why not?

Do you ask theists why they believe in god? There is no evidence for it.

@dflowers
I do not believe Zeus exists. I actually don't believe that any of the gods, whose ideas I've been presented with, exist. I don't believe in Jesus, or Allah, or Ra or any other god.

I'm agnostic because I'm not going to claim that I "know" that there is NO god that exists or has existed, or is yet to exist.

@dflowers

You're last question doesn't make much sense but I'll try...

I don't believe Zeus exists.
I don't currently believe any god exists because I have no evidence that supports the idea.
I don't claim to KNOW that there is no "god" of any type or form, anywhere in the universe, or ever has been, etc.

If you still don't understand, then I can't help you and will assume you're trolling, or just incapable of understanding this simple concept.

There is no evidence for or against, just human logic, logic that leads me to believe that there isn't a god. Here's my take on why not:I believe that we are intelligent animals ( well most of us) ones with a sense of self, a thinking animal with the largest brain pan and brain, given our size. The chimps and great apes come close, but we humanoids have the ability to anticipate and foresee the future and know that we will like all humans, die at some future date. It might be argued that chimps and the great apes may have the same ability, and perhaps they do. But here is the difference, we have gods, and as far as I, or the scientists know, at least for the time being, we don’t think chimps do. So it begs the question, why us? Is there a god or is this a construct we create? I think the answer is straightforward; it is within our nature to imagine a god or gods, because It is a coping mechanism. We know we will die, and because it is hard to accept the fact that we too will go back to nothingness as will our loved ones, so in order to keep our sanity and as a means of coping with this horror, we create a god and afterlife. In other words, there is no god without man, god didn’t create us, we created him/her. This makes life bearable, especially so in man’s early going, during those dark hard days, when life was short and brutal. As we advanced over time, become educated, understood thru science how the universe works, developed labour saving devices and found free time to learn and grown intellectually, many of us have evolved to the point where we see religion, with all its contradictions and hypocrisy for what it really is, an imagined construct to get us thru the night, a night light if you will, to scare off the devil or the boogey man under your bed. My contention is supported by the fact that religion especially prospers in those poor parts of the world or the country where education is lacking, superstitious runs rapid, and life is hard and brutal. For the poor and the oppressed god and an afterlife makes life bearable, just like it did in the dark past. For the better educated and more free minded, those not held back by religion teachings and traditions, they are equipped to study the genesis of beliefs and religions, to see their fault lines, their lack of logic and hypocrisy, and are better able to form their own beliefs about the nature of man and his need for god, or not.

To some, the beauty we see and perceive is evidence. And the love humanity is capable to show one another. And the miracle of life, and evolution, and water, and ... that. But looking for a proof for God is a bit like a fish looking for the evidence of water. Only more so. Is this omnipresent God is indeed omnipresent, how can we step outside it to observe it?

@billins I would contend that the "problem of evil" (Cf the video of Mr Fry posted earlier) constitutes evidence of god's absence.

Religious people use the "common sense" argument too. That's not a real argument.

I have always been deeply mistrustful of 'common sense' as a justification for anything. It's frequently misused, and often wrong.

Thank you, you have tried but I am still far from convinced by your explanation, that is why I am an agnostic. Here is my take on why I can't believe in a god. I believe that we are intelligent animals ( well most of us) ones with a sense of self, a thinking animal with the largest brain pan and brain, given our size. The chimps and great apes come close, but we humanoids have the ability to anticipate and foresee the future and know that we will like all humans, die at some future date. It might be argued that chimps and the great apes may have the same ability, and perhaps they do. But here is the difference, we have gods, and as far as I, or the scientists know, at least for the time being, we don’t think chimps do. So it begs the question, why us? Is there a god or is this a construct we create? I think the answer is straightforward; it is within our nature to imagine a god or gods, because It is a coping mechanism. We know we will die, and because it is hard to accept the fact that we too will go back to nothingness as will our loved ones, so in order to keep our sanity and as a means of coping with this horror, we create a god and afterlife. In other words, there is no god without man, god didn’t create us, we created him/her. This makes life bearable, especially so in man’s early going, during those dark hard days, when life was short and brutal. As we advanced over time, become educated, understood thru science how the universe works, developed labour saving devices and found free time to learn and grown intellectually, many of us have evolved to the point where we see religion, with all its contradictions and hypocrisy for what it really is, an imagined construct to get us thru the night, a night light if you will, to scare off the devil or the boogey man under your bed. My contention is supported by the fact that religion especially prospers in those poor parts of the world or the country where education is lacking, superstitious runs rapid, and life is hard and brutal. For the poor and the oppressed god and an afterlife makes life bearable, just like it did in the dark past. For the better educated and more free minded, those not held back by religion teachings and traditions, they are equipped to study the genesis of beliefs and religions, to see their fault lines, their lack of logic and hypocrisy, and are better able to form their own beliefs about the nature of man and his need for god, or not.

amen to that

There's never been any evidence of a "supreme being" there is evidence of an expanding universe, so to me the Big Bang wins hands down.

Honestlyspeaking stop spewing that nonsense that "Science can't tell us". Just because you haven't bothered investigating beyond your own understanding, doesn't mean Science hasn't delivered plausible explanations beyond your god.

Our universe was born from the Big Bang. Prior to the Big Bang, our Universe existed as a point of spacetime singularity. A singularity is a location in spacetime where the gravitational field of a body in space becomes infinite. Objects in space with sufficient gravity do in fact bend space-time. The more the gravity a celestial body has, the more significant the "bend". Think of it like a tennis ball on a piece of fabric represents our sun. But a bowling ball on the same fabric represents a black hole. The more gravity, the greater the bend in the fabric, in this case of space-time. The "bottom" of the black hole reduces all matter to a point of singularity which is infinite. Eventually, the density and thermal energy inside the point of singularity grows beyond the gravity of the black hole itself. And then boom.
Centuries ago it was considered ridiculous that there was another world beyond the planet Earth. 200 years ago we just began catching glimpses of other planets and predicting their orbital patterns. It seemed arrogant to think that we were the only kids on the block. Then in 1929, Edwin Hubble discovered Andromeda which forever changed out understanding of the Cosmos. The idea that the Milky Way Galaxy was the Universe was shattered. Now, 89 years later it is becoming ridiculous to think that ours is the only Universe. Read below on evolving ideas of Black Holes, Singularity, and the Big Bang.
Yes, it is a highly technical, scientific article that many may struggle to understand. But just because one can't understand something doesn't mean it's not true. Your original claim that "Science can't tell us" is bunk. Science is telling us, just because you a) don't want to hear it, or b) can't understand it doesn't mean god did it. The "Science can't tell us" introduction to a statement or question is code for, "I don't bother investigating this myself because I lack the education, and understanding to be able to do so. Therefore, magical Sky daddy did it, or I'm going to make a claim about which I have little scientific understanding."

God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance

[arxiv.org]

A fair point. The effect of believers when we acquire political power within a society can have very adverse effects on that Society. Consider the modern Muslim countries laws that are based religious and then consider how oppressive those governments are.

@LibrePenseur What gets me is the combination of religion and culture within stunted cultures like those in the Middle East were outside influence in this case western powers have prevented what I think is healthy growth within the culture. You see it in Africa, South America and even in the US in the South primarily.

Exactly....just one reason.why I think religion is the evil, and if it happens, will be the end of man.

True and your logic is spot on, however, the answer still begs the question is there or isn't there a god and an afterlife? Your statement puts the onus on those who believe to come up with empirical evidence. And we both know that isn't possible unless there really is a god who could show up one day, then if that is the case you can ignore what comes next: In the past man believed the sun revolved around the earth, there wasn't any proof that the opposite was true, that the earth rotated around the sun, so according to men's logic then, it wasn't true because this was a crazy notion and no proof. It wasn't until Copernicus in the 1500's proved that the Earth rotates around the Sun, and then it became true. Here’s what I think, for what it’s worth;I believe that we are intelligent animals ( well most of us) ones with a sense of self, a thinking animal with the largest brain pan and brain, given our size. The chimps and great apes come close, but we humanoids have the ability to anticipate and foresee the future and know that we will like all humans, die at some future date. It might be argued that chimps and the great apes may have the same ability, and perhaps they do. But here is the difference, we have gods, and as far as I, or the scientists know, at least for the time being, we don’t think chimps do. So it begs the question, why us? Is there a god or is this a construct we create? I think the answer is straightforward; it is within our nature to imagine a god or gods, because It is a coping mechanism. We know we will die, and because it is hard to accept the fact that we too will go back to nothingness as will our loved ones, so in order to keep our sanity and as a means of coping with this horror, we create a god and afterlife. In other words, there is no god without man, god didn’t create us, we created him/her. This makes life bearable, especially so in man’s early going, during those dark hard days, when life was short and brutal. As we advanced over time, became educated, understood thru science how things, nature and the universe works, developed labour saving devices and found free time to learn and grown intellectually, many of us have evolved to the point where we see religion, with all its contradictions and hypocrisy for what it really is, an imagined construct to get us thru the night, a night light if you will, to scare off the devil or the boogey man under your bed. My contention is supported by the fact that religion especially prospers in those poor parts of the world or the country where education is lacking, superstitious runs rapid, and life is hard and brutal. For the poor and the oppressed god and an afterlife makes life bearable, just like it did in the dark past. For the better educated and more free minded, those not held back by religion teachings and traditions, they are equipped to study the genesis of beliefs and religions, to see their fault lines, their lack of logic and hypocrisy, and are better able to form their own beliefs about the nature of man and his need for god, or not.

True, but lack of proof is not a logical answer to the question of whether or not there is a god. In the past man believed the sun revolved around the earth, there wasn't any proof that the opposite was true, that the earth rotated around the sun, so according to men's logic then, it wasn't true. It wasn't until Copernicus in the 1500's proved that the Earth rotates around the Sun, and then it became true. Here’s what I think, for what it’s worth; I think god is a creation of man as a means of coping with a hard and cruel life. It makes life bearable knowing that a much better place awaits you in an afterlife. You will find god alive and well among the poor, uneducated, and most superstitious of peoples, but not so much among the better educated and well-off who see the lies, hypocrisy and hate on which religion thrives. Religion is like a night light for scaring off the bogey man under your bed, and it’s a promise of a better, happier afterlife once this horrible one comes to an end.

I was in the same situation, but search God and discover His great love. Don't search in wrong places, the answers is in your heart. God loves you so much.

@rickarto How would you know for absolute certainty that you were not under a delusion? (example: millions of Japanese that believed their emperor was divine, or Hindus or Muslims that both you and I can agree are deluded and are pretending to know things they can't know)

You're right, but I think you're in for a long wait.

Which is why I think atheists do not "not believe in god(s)." They KNOW there are no deities in the same way we know there are no fairies, great pumpkins or Santa Claus. All evidence to the contrary is enough sometimes to know the continued search for such evidence will be futile. I am an atheist because I KNOW there are no supernatural deities.

Oh, not to mention there are over 3000 active religions on the planet, and all but YOURS is a lie. If they ask how I know theirs is a lie, I'll just tell them I used the same method they used to determine every other religion was a lie.

The drkening in Kook-aide started in my mother’s womb. If you haven’t survived the incessant indoctrination such information as you noted above is difficult to grasp yet wonderful when comprehension breaks through at last!

Yes!

There are things we take as read which are unprovable. This is what creationists thrive on but misunderstand science. Evolution is one but Ohms law or rather Ohms theorem is another. Similarly Copernicus vs Ptolemy in terms of relativity are equally viable. It`s just one is "better"

what is there to believe about Yogurt ?

Sorry, I couldn't resist

@dave1120 You can lead a whore to culture but you cannot make her think (Dorothy Parker) Couldn`t resist that one either

There is a short poem written by Ian Anderson on the back side of Jethro Tull's Aqualung album that I think is an apt description of who and what god is,in short man invented god so we would have someone to blame his mistakes and shortcomings on.

@slinkie59 The fault lies not in our stars dear Brutus but in ourselves , that we are underlings

What available evidence? There is none

I didn’t say it was good evidence ?

Evolution has NOT been disproven. Quite the contrary.

Actually, atheists have no belief in god, not proof

Well said, Hitch!