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"You do not have to extend compassion to your childhood tormentors."

Your thoughts?

"Greaser" girls (think "West Side Story" ) bullied me in junior high, threatening to beat me up at the bus stop. They hated me because of my good grades and flute playing. A skinny little thing, I was about 4 feet tall (felt like it) and 80 lbs.

Terrified, I hid in the counselor's office. In frigid Michigan winters, I walked two miles to another bus stop for three years. To my relief, those girls dropped out of school.

Seventh grade was the worst year of my life. When I entered science class, boys in the back of the room sang loudly:

"She's a carpenter's dream... flat as a board!"

  • "She's a pirate's dream... a sunken chest!"*

They collapsed with laughter. That's when I developed dignity and good posture: straight back, head high, with shoulders back, I icily ignored then.

Our 10-year high school reunion was great. Those same guys hung all over me, moaning, "You were the prettiest girl in high school! Why didn't you ever date any of us?"

"I had an older, more mature boyfriend," I replied, smiling.

Photo: Age 12 with my little sister, 7, at Echo Lake, Michigan. Loved that swimsuit. Silly me, I thought the padded top made me appear to have a figure.

[slate.com]

LiterateHiker 9 Feb 23
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26 comments

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7

I was an outcast through all of my childhood and growing up, too. That's why in high school I made friends and ate lunch with the lower class and special education students, as they were among the few who weren't snobby and didn't think they were too good and cool to hang out with me

Yep. I was AP in Junior High..(advanced placement) but when i skipped school and got left back...they put me in what I will call Sweathogs for second 9th grade and it was great. Then in HS...I went to an alternative HS...where we were ALL Fringe.

6

I've only EVER had 2 actually physical fights in my life, the first was with the school Bully in primary school who thought he could bully everyone, including the girls and new kids, until one day he started on a little girl who had just changed to the school from another, she was very tiny, petite, same age as me ( 11 years old) and wore glasses.
My Dad always told that " If you have to fight then fight for the rights of someone else, not yourself, and make certain you down your opponent BUT let the opponent take the first swing at you."
I challenged the Bully, we met in the park next door to the school that afternoon after school finished, his bully mates were restrained by the crowd and we went one on one, me, all skinny and about 7 stone of me and him a good 3 inches taller and about 1-2 stone heavier.
He swung the first punch, which somehow I managed to duck, and then, as told by the crowd, I turned into a human windmill with fists flying left and right.
It took 2 teachers to get me off of him as he lay on the ground looking very battered, bruised and crying his eyes out, begging for mercy.
I'm by no means proud of myself nor the fight but seeing him dragged up before the ENTIRE school the next morning with 2 black eyes, a split lip and bruises a very nice shade of red and purple, and the School Headmaster firmly INSTRUCTING him and his bully friends to APOLOGISE to EVERYONE in the school, including the Teachers, and then being told that they'd ALL receive a punishment of collecting rubbish from around the school grounds from then on until they left the school and started their time in Secondary School a year later at which their dismal records would also be known and make public to the students there.
As for me, I got sent to the school First Aid room to get my bandaged hands re-bandaged then a very quiet rest in the same room for two periods before being allowed back to classes.

@Triphid

What a great story! You are a wonderful storyteller.

"Human windmill with fists flying left and right" was hilarious. What a mental picture! Thanks for sharing.

I felt like I was there. That is a great motto to live by.

@LiterateHiker I think that was why afterwards one of the teachers gave me the friendly nickname of 'Little Mo" because he later explained "It was kind of like watch the USS Missouri firing a couple of broadsides one immediately after the other and watching the target collapse in a cloud of dust."

6

I'd forgive them. Not for them. For me. Once you've forgiven someone you no longer have to give them brain space. Holding grudges is just added weight. You don't have to go out of your way to interact or be kind, but you don't have to put any extra effort into actively disliking/hating them.

@CommonHuman

Agreed. "I wouldn't know a grudge if it mugged me," I wrote in my profile.

Grudge-holding just hurts the person holding the grudge.

If forgiveness means letting go of the bitterness and getting stronger and moving forward with your life, then forgiveness is healthy. Some people think forgiveness means that you must not defend yourself, you must put up with bad treatment and you must go back to the abuser and take more abuse. That I strongly disagree with. The minister of the Unitarian Society I belong to told me that forgiveness means that you pull the knife out of your back and you heal. Not forgiving means that you let the knife stay in your back. I like that definition.

@SKH78 Precisely. Forgiveness means you take the knife out, it doesn't mean you hand it back to them.

5

Yep, funny how that kind of karma catches up with them. I once knew a set of twins who were actually very smart and known for their good grades, and then shortly after one of them decided to rant right in front of me how much smarter she was than me she got pregnant at THIRTEEN and had to drop out of school! Real smart and mature, aye? I graduated high school, and yet when I was in junior high their older sister would compare them to me; I would say it turned out I was the smarter, more responsible one, wouldn't you?

5

Yeah I had bullies harass me..They still try too..much to their chagrin, it don't work no more..

4

Sweet picture. I wouldn't say compassion necessarily, but what I endorce is being generous always. people do the best they can with what they are thinking. And many have pretty mucked up thinking. I would imagine they werent raised to be compassionate and may have endured their own suffering that they needed to belittle others. I have always found I fared better than those who have done that. It must suck being like that too. Just my thoughts and how I keep myself from blowing any chi but these events in life now or in the past.

Oh! and I love the picture. You both look so sweet.

4

Size of your breasts does not define your feminity.

How did this turn into a forgiveness discussion?

large breasts can be a curse. i had a girlfriend who had to have hers reduced.
i always remember a remark marlon brando made about the girl who was his co-star in "last tango in paris". i think schnieder was her last name. she had large breasts & apparently they didn't get along very well. someone mentioned her to brando & he said "by the time she's 30 she'll be playing basketball with those tits."

@callmedubious I have large ones .... flat chested women sometimes envied me. But I envied them. The cat calling on the street was awful. I wore loose clothing but even so, got called a "slut" just because of the way I was built. I got called "stupid" by guys who think large breasted women have low intelligence. It is truly terrible, the body shaming that some women suffer. Maybe men get ridiculed too, if they are short and slender and don't look "macho" ..... I just know there are a LOT of mean people out there. Shaking my damn head.

@SKH78

You're right about body shaming women suffer. All my life, I have been ridiculed for being too thin.

"Only dogs like bones."

"You have a stick figure." - a man lashed out when I refused a second date.

"Eat a cheeseburger!"

"Men don't like muscular women. Men want something to grab onto." - a heavy woman in line behind me.

"You are too skinny to hike with us." - Karen, hiking partner. My weight had dropped to 107. I proved her wrong.

4

I am not surprised that those same guys were all over you. You already looked gorgeous at 12, and you are still gorgeous at 65 with your new haircut.

@Jolanta

Thank you so much! A late bloomer, I grew 1-1/2 " taller from age 18 to 24.

In the first photo, I'm 28, with Terry, 32, before we were married. We backpacked to Ingalls Lake, WA. A month later, I flew to Michigan for my 10-year high school reunion.

Age 15, before my first boyfriend's senior prom. I made my prom dress. That evening, Darryl asked me to marry him. I was horrified. "No, I'm going to college," I replied. Broke up with him the next day.

Thank you for sharing your photos, LiterateHicker!

@LiterateHiker You do look lovely in those photos. Good on you for doing your own thing even at 15.

4

The bullies sometimes grow up and become decent human being. Sadly, oftentimes they don't.
You don't owe ANYONE your forgiveness.
So... **** 'em. I HATE bullies.

In my perception, most bullies do not change. They take occupations that let them bully people in legal ways - prison guards, cops, code compliance officers, and ... sadly, some of them go into the "helping" professions - medical and mental health professionals, education, etc. The percentage of abusive "helping professionals" might be small, but the damage is big.

4

Sounds familiar, except I punched them in the face first. Thus seems to be the agony of persecution beginning in middle school for most. Endure. Survive. Excel. Laugh last. My great satisfaction was denying them my presence at a get-together. Why on Earth would I want to consent to being around them when I had a choice. They are cult followers of fellow bully Comrade Chump. EPH U!

3

I'm sorry for the things you and sure many other people had to go through. I hate bullies. You look a beautiful kid in the photo

@Mersyman1

Thank you very much.

3

I don't see that there is any obligation to extend compassion to anyone. Under any circumstances. Ever. Compassion seems to me more of an opportunity than an obligation. It usually benefits the extendor more than the extendee. But there is never an obligation to accept that benefit.

skado Level 9 Feb 23, 2019
3

I had two tormentors in school -- one in elementary school and one in junior high. In he fifth grade, the principal, Miss Mallory, called me in and said that if she ever saw Punky Lester picking on me again without my fighting back, she would spank me. I was more afraid of her than of Punky. The next time Punky picked on me, I fought back -- and beat him.

In junior High, Downing led a pack of toadies around the schoolyard, terrorizing many, including me. In the 10th grade, I challenged Downing to a fight, and beat him soundly. In both cases, after I won, the bullies were simply irrelevant.

II know that neither of them had the successes in life that I have had, so in a small way I probably would feel a bit sorry for both if I saw them again.,

3

Of course you don't need to. There were people who were just immature, but there were some who were just crummy people. Them, I don't much think about but can not imagine being friends with. On those rare occasions I meet them at a reunion, they generally haven't become much as adults.

3

Very Interesting. I was bullied all through elementary school and most of JH and went to a specialized HS and the commute was worth it! Loved HS and College. Over the years 2008 to present i get FB messages some with apologies from 3rd and 4th grade. I also got messages from 2 who said they were my friends in 4th grade. I didn't remember these people...but then one..just one...said something I remembered and she was in fact a friend all those years ago. Do I forgive the bullies? Yes. They were kids. But i don't need to know them now. Friend request denied.

I actually had to repeat 9th grade ( it's HS now but was JR H back then) because i didn't go. I skipped almost whole year and went to Library to avoid the awful kids who were tormenting me. This one girl was hitting me one day and I wouldn't fight her. She was so small and I totally could have taken her out....but I didn't want to I just kept saying Leave me alone...all her friends cheered for her smacking me around and I skipped school remainder of the year.

3

Miss Kathleen, I love you! You beat the odds for staying headstrong! ❤?

@SleeplessInTexas

Thank you. I'm nothing if not determined. Hugs.

You... @sleeplessintexas & @literatehiker....
Are STRONG WOMEN.
I'm glad to know you.

2

Two words: Fuck them. (but not literally).

2

I am astonished and profoundly sad that so many people insist that bullied people go back to the bullies and spend time with them and be nice to them, that forgiveness means letting them abuse you again and again. I have met or I have read about people who come from horrible families - abuse that was awful, so awful it is a miracle that people survived, got jobs, lived stable, decent lives - and when people ask them about parents and relatives, they have to lie and say their parents and siblings are dead. If they give honest answers, they listen to lectures about being a good, dutiful child and forgiveness means spending time with them. Or if they say they can't discuss family issues, they get badgered with intrusive questions. So, many people who survive a terrible childhood have to lie to keep the peace and avoid shaming lectures. I had thought by now, the 21st century, public consciousness was fairly well raised about abusive families .... but maybe not.

SKH78 Level 8 Feb 24, 2019
2

Kids are cruel. I avoid children. The only exceptions are those whose parents raise them to have compassion and empathy.

SKH78 Level 8 Feb 23, 2019
2

I think a lot of people would say "seventh grade was the worst year of my life". That, or eighth. There's something about middle school that seems to make for Lord of the Flies scenarios with how kids treat each other. At least in my day (and yours) schools did zero about it. I wonder if that has changed.

@mordant

Every Latina girl I mentored was bullied in school. Since 2006, I have been a volunteer college mentor at Wenatchee High School.

"'You smell like tortillas; is that all you Mexicans eat?' a boy in my class said loudly in the hall in middle school," Teresa said in 2014. "All of my classmates laughed. With my face on fire, I ran to the bathroom, and cried. I thought they were my friends."

In 2016, I asked school board members to address bullying. They said teachers cannot monitor school hallways at all times.

in the eighth grade i won a fight with the class bully who was picking on my sort of sissy friend.

@LiterateHiker [sigh] that's kind of what I figured. I was afraid to ask ... 50 years and sounds like zero progress. I realize it's not easy to address, but the "it's not my problem" attitude is troubling.

@callmedubious In the 6th grade I got a reputation as a badass through two totally accidental events.

Happy accident #1: We used to be lined up in front of the school waiting to get in after recess. Some idiot was harassing me -- over what I no longer recall -- but he got physical with me, we tussled, and by some trick of balance I hurled him over my head and onto his back. He was so surprised he started crying. I was at least as surprised as he was, but managed to conceal it. Everyone for 50 feet around had their jaw on the ground. You could hear a pin drop. No one fucked with me the rest of that year. Somehow the teachers didn't notice or hear, or maybe they turned a blind eye, secretly pleased. He was a known trouble maker and I wasn't. That was apparently good for one free pass at least.

Happy accident #2: We had a gun safety class that involved skeet shooting with a .22 rifle. Each of us in the class got 3 shots. Most missed all three; a couple got one of three. I alone got 2 of three. For some bizarre reason this earned me respect and the nickname "Bullet Bob". No one REALLY fucked with me the rest of that year.

The bullying came back my freshman year in high school (different building, and the thugs there didn't know I was a badass, and I of course knew that I wasn't, and they were 4 years older than me anyway).

I don't know what it is about boys and their need for all this testosterone-soaked posturing and chest-thumping. I couldn't see through religion at that age, but I saw right through that. And I'm not sure why my bullshit meter worked for one and not the other. Maybe we're each born with some allotment of perception or insight into certain narrow matters or something.

I feel sick when I hear people say "bullying is normal ... children have always been cruel ... that is the way life is" ... I don't know if it is "normal" for children to be abusive. I read the memoir of Miep Gies, the woman who brought food and supplies to the family of Anne Frank when they hid from Nazis. Gies was adopted at age 12. Her family could not afford to feed her. She was thin and sickly. Her adoptive family welcomed her and taught her Dutch right away. She went to school and all of the kids welcomed her and offered to teach her Dutch. So many helping hands reached out, she didn't know which hand to take first. As an adult she had the Moral Courage to risk her life to help the Frank and Van Pels families. This is what happens when children are taught empathy.

2

I have to add to my previous comment, when I was younger I was attracted to women with smaller breasts, I feel that they had to work harder to make a relationship work. Kind of a f***** up situation but in reality it was nice to have someone that actually wanted to make a relationship work instead of relying on their body to make the relationship work.

2

I wasn't large, but big enough. My older brother (by 14 years) showed me tricks from his special forces training (I don't suggest giving a ten year old a knife and saying attack me). But in high school I developed an anti war persona (even though I later joined the Navy). I also would stand up to bullies and tell them: you can beat me, for sure, but you won't walk away unscathed. No fights after 7th grade. Oh, and even then I cheated. No desire to return to thise days.

2

I don't believe in "forgiveness". I think it's a bullshit concept, invented by religion.
It gives people a pass, and most of them will do whatever they did to hurt you again.
I don't "need" to forgive anyone, for anything. Ever.
I either get over whatever it is, or I don't. I excise people from my life and rarely
give them another thought.
It's not that hard.

As far as the bullies go, I dealt with my share of mean girls (and boys) in school.
I survived it, and moved the fuck away from all of them as soon as I was old enough.
I don't care if we were just immature kids. They were assholes, and I have no desire to have anything to do with any of them ever again.
I heard a couple of them have died, to which my first reaction was "GOOD".
I will never attend a class reunion. It's an overrated event.

To whomever I wish to show compassion is up to me.
No one else. I do not need to be advised by anyone how I should behave, and
how I should feel about anything, or anyone.

I don't believe in forgiving, because for me, and I realize it is odd, it means I blame someone. shit happens, we meet people and are in this dance. How they behave is about them and how I behave or react is about them. I may feel hurt, but its transient, as we all have our shit. Bullies especially.

I too, moved a long distance away when I grew up. Middle and high school were a nightmare. I almost did not survive. You could not pay me all the money in the world to go to a class reunion and face the bullies who shoved me down the stairs, yanked up my skirt and ripped down my underpants, sabotaged my school work - which meant the teachers punished me - tripped me, spit on my and dumped chocolate milk down my shirt. I would rather kill myself than see those bullies again.

@SKH78 You "owe" no one "forgiveness".

1

so i don't have to forgive the tomboy girl who for some reason used to chase me when i was small (under 11) & push me around if she caught me. she was older & bigger than me.
never got picked on by boys b/c i was actually pretty tough for my size & age.

1

You are a beautiful accomplished woman, you won...we both did. I was a chubby ginger, shy geeky kid...hell

@Amisja

Thank you, dear. Hugs.

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