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LINK The universe may be conscious, say prominent scientists - Big Think

Scientists have theorized that your consciousness exists as a 4th dimensional quantium "thing". A material, a substance that we use to visualize memories, concepts and objects into 3 and 5 dimensional constructs.

Where does this substance come from and where does it go when our body dies?

Energy does not get destroyed rather it is simply reconstituted into another form of matter. So too does "thought" reconstitute as it too is a form of matter.

So as the theory goes consciousness is a form of matter and we are all part of it, the universe(s) are just dreams in the mind's eye of a multidimensional omni-consciousness.

This could be put another way for the theologians out there, we are all god.

RobertFoley 6 Nov 6
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0

\sounds like Eastern mysticism to me. So some clever educated scientists hang on to the idea that we have some sort of soul that lives on after we die. There is no evidence that consciousness exists outside the brain.
I watched my late sister in law change from a lively intelligent woman to an empty shell of a person through Altzymers and to think that she was to live on in some sort of afterlife is incredibly cruel.

5

A "proto-consciousness field theory" is NOT a theory. A legitimate theory needs to be testable / falsifiable. This at best a very dubious hypothesis.

Well that saved me saying it! I love being a scientist... Not proper science, psychology and sociology stuff. We're trying, very trying.

Proto: Means before the final product?
Consciousness: Something 40 percent of the USA residents don't possess.
Field: Universal field? Football field? Corn?
Theory: I'm sick of explaining this word. (two meanings)

5

I would call this a hypothesis, not a theory-- as there is zero evidence to back this up--it is only speculation.

4

These claims are quite extraordinary in scale and scope. The concept of panpsychism is on the whole more of a philosophical one than a scientific one. No matter what, it will always run into a fundamental issue when dealing with consciousness.

It's the age old question, how can you be sure that anyone else is aware? The answer is you can't. It is possible that only you (whoever is reading this) is the only conscious person and everyone else is just an empty husk, not truly aware just acting as if they were in a highly complex way.

Personally, I believe that consciousness is an evolved ability of the brains ability to manage and switch between different modules or capabilities, which is emergent from the cooperative effort of neurons. Our intuition of it being something mystical is wrong.

I am. The god of my own universe. When I die, it also ceases to exist.

@RMNODDING The very concept of mortality violates the preposition. That doesn't make you a god, just a solipsist.

@Happy_Killbot In my universe you are just an amusing blurb on my laptop screen.

@RMNODDING [bonfire.com]

@K9Kohle789 I don't say that I am the only universe, just that within my own, which is all within the bounds of my personal experience, I am the supreme arbiter. When I die and my consciousness ceases to exist then my universe ends. It looks very much as though there may be other consciousnesses out there, but I have found no way of intrinsically connecting to them or to a larger all-encompassing consciousness. Since I cannot partake on an intrinsic level in some larger consciousness which could survive the death of my body, this leaves me alone and when I lose consciousness for the last time my universe will cease.

@K9Kohle789 I mocking the idea of solipsism.

Have you ever gone to sleep? If consciousness is energy, then where does it go every time we lie down to rest? This alone seems like conclusive proof that consciousness is not some physical energy, but rather composed of physical parts, namely neurons exchanging information in the form of electrical impulses, which are made of proteins made of molecules made of atoms made various subatomic particles which are packets of energy.

Let's do a thought experiment to show how ridiculous this idea is. Lets say you have a group of people doing a complex coordinated and choreographed dance. When the music stops and the dancers stop moving and take their bow, where did the dance go?

If I made a theory that says that there is a giant ball of dancing energy out there somewhere we can't detect directly, that would be ridiculous right? It ignores the evidence that the dance is an emergent property of the motion of the dancers, and not a physical object in and of itself. Consciousness is the same way.

No, I don't believe stories of children remembering past lives. Just look at the study linked from that same article. [reincarnationafterdeath.com]

@K9Kohle789 I think you are missing some major concepts here, I agree that the dancers are exerting energy and are energy insofar as mass and energy are the same thing. What you are missing is the emergence of the dance from all these isolated components.

Consider Coway's game of life. Each "cell" acts based on very basic rules, from which complex systems which follow their own unique rules emerge. It's fun to play with and see what you can create.
[bitstorm.org]

my point is that the dance and consciousness are like that, something complex emerging from many layers of simplicity, each of which seems to obey very different laws entirely different than the ones it emerges from.

@K9Kohle789 I think thousands of people all have their own unique definition. There is no consensus, not now or any other time in history on what spiritual means. For everyone who says that it means something similar to what you said, there are 5 more who say it's the product of some part of us protruding into a higher dimension, absolute information that transcends time and space, classic dualism, the study of an abstract immortal soul, and of course all the science that says something similar to what I said.

When the music stops and the performers take their bow, where did the dance go?

3

This article is total BS. The first warning sign: they appeal to famous "prominent" scientists.

There is no 4th spatial dimension...if there were we would see amazing violations of physics all the time. Stuff coming into existence and smashing into things. That doesn't happens.

There are some basic restrictions science imposes and every one would do well to learn them. Take some physics chemistry biology and math courses. See how they connect with each other and clearly show what is and isn't possible.

Remember there are scientists who will sell out and write shitty metaphysics books that are garbage. Dont waste your time or money on those.

We would lose track of reality. Like now...........

3

It sounds like some Deepak Chopra woo to me.

3

I found one of these prominent scientists in the last Cracker Jacks box I opened.

I decided not to have any, because who eats that kind of crap?

Sir Roger Penrose OM FRS is an English mathematical physicist, mathematician and philosopher of science. He is Emeritus Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford and an emeritus fellow of Wadham College, Oxford.
Flagrantly dismissing a scientist's work might say more about the dismisser than the dismissed.

@CallMeDave

Some people are delusional regardless of their education..

@Athena do you find issues in his methodology, or only in that the conclusion doesn't fit preconceptions?
Many atheists say, "when science shows that (XYZ), then I'll believe it." Well this is a real scientist hard at work.

@CallMeDave

I always appreciate hard work. There are also scientists who are Christians and believe in nonsense.

Am I to believe everything all scientists say? And it also seems there isn't a lot of peer agreement here.

@Athena No, for sure, some people with Ph.D's are whack, but it would be imprudent to dismiss all scientists because some put their personal agendas first. From the Wiki and anything else I saw in a few minutes, this one is reputable at worst and more likely outstanding. And an atheist. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

3

I am keenly aware of the physical evidence which leads some people to think this. It is based on the evidence which Roger Penrose connected to human neurology. Basically they have evidence that our neurons might tap into the quantum field. The idea itself is rather old. You can picture it that our brains are radio tuners and the radio waves are emitted consistently by the universe as a fundamental aspect of the universe. However, there is a hidden assumption here; that consciousness is independent of the physical apparatus of brain, rather than the result of the compiled components. The other aspect that seems to get overlooked is the individual nature of consciousness. People like Jung assumed that there was a collective nature to consciousness, rather than something that only exists at the individual level. The evidence we have from evolution points in the other direction, that individual consciousness is actually an element that increases the potential for survival, physical survival.

3

Thanks for posting this! I’m saving it in a handy place to read when I get time.

I’m in the middle of reading Donald Hoffman’s new book, The Case Against Reality, which complements this article.

There are plenty of reasons for thinking that the universe might be conscious, and many prominent physicists have hypothesized the idea in various forms. For example:
Max Planck said in 1944, "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter".

Edwin Schrodinger:

Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.

There are many others.

3

So too does "thought" reconstitute as it too is a form of matter.

++++++++++++ Mmmmm..."thought" is the result of interacting brain cells. Like dreams, it's ''existing'' ONLY in the brain of the dreamer/physician. How is this translated into ''matter?"

@Allamanda And you can prove this....how?

2

Panpsychism, a form of Liebniz monadism, according to Penrose may fill the "gaps" in our understanding by postulating a universal awareness that makes adjustments in the Universe that we otherwise have been unable to completely explain. But there is no real evidence to support this. This sounds too much like the "God of the Gaps" argument, replacing God with a cosmic consciousness. I prefer admitting the limitations of our current knowledge of the Universe rather than resorting to a panpsychic belief system, attractive as it may be. Additionally, we haven't even come up with a good definition or understanding of consciousness, so how can we say that it is "produced and transmitted through the quantum vacuum, or empty space" if we don't even understand what consciousness is?

[theatlantic.com]

Thanks for the link. Makes more sense to me that consciousness is more of an emergent property of the brain, rather than distributed across the universe. That is, it takes the complexity and organization of a brain, or something very similar to it, to generate consciousness.

2

That would make for a great R. Crumb comic!

I think even he would pass on it. 😀

2

I hope this is true. If it is, I am going to come back, jump into the Internet and fuck with everyone's Facebook account until Zuckerberg is one broke-ass cracker!

2

I have a feeling that these "prominent scientists" don't know much about neuroscience.

2

God repackaged and relabeled as the universe..

It's a belief for people who don't believe in gods, but can't shake the feeling.

2

I've been intrigued by this concept since I read Rupert Sheldrake's book on morphic fields years ago. I never thought it would gain gain traction. Thanks for the link! I really enjoyed it.

1

This speculation falls between or to some extent overlaps sensational science and ambitious spirituality.
If we accept that humans or not the centre or purpose of universe, the speculation itself becomes unnecessary.

1

So called prominent scientists often enough been proved to be Wrong before proving to be Right.... so...

1

When we die, the minerals in our bodies go back into the ground. The electrical impulses stored in our brains cease. The acids we call dna are neutralized. We die. We are not a substance with a choice.
We propel the future with our decomposition like every other animal.

1

I hate this stuff and it's not even faintly scientific because the terms are not defined. It's more linguistic quibbling, and that way nonsense lies. I do know something about quantum physics and I can see that whoever wrote this article doesn't.

An eminent scientist once said of a colleague's theory "it's so bad it's not even wrong".

The physicist you quote was Wolfgang Pauli. He likely would be about that dismissive of panpsychism.

1

I'm not buying it.

Its the same price as a load of BS.

1

This is a dumb as Einstein's theory that gravity effects time.

gater Level 7 Nov 7, 2019

Einstein's special theory of relativity has been tested and proven.

@PBuck0145 no it hasn't - time is a constant - its complete bs

@gater We'll let that be your special secret.

Speed of light is a constant, gravity appears to affect time. This has been tested and is retested often. The stronger the gravitational force, the slower time appears to move forward, so that time effectively stops in the heart of a black hole.

@Sofabeast You are speaking of time dilation - that's the effect gravity has on matter - not on time.
The speed of light is not a constant because gravity can effect light.

1

Any attempt to marry science with pseudo-science immediately arouses my suspicion.

This subject used to be fun to think about back when I smoked wacky weed as a youngster. It's a bit dull now. We can get more meaning from a six pack of beer. 😀

I suggest you look up a British comedian 'Pub landlord' (Al Murry) and sketch 'two pint problem'

1

Preposterous.

Protoposterous.

1

"Scientists have theorized that your consciousness exists as a 4th dimensional quantium "thing""
Interesting concept, but the time to believe it is when we have evidence to support it beyond pure theory.

From the article
"A proto-consciousness field theory could replace the theory of dark matter, one physicist states."
ONE does not a consensus make.

"According to the late scientist and philosopher, John Archibald Wheeler"

"Wheeler had a reputation pushing his students into a place where logical thought would not necessarily take them. Former student Richard Feynman, to Kip Thorne, declared, “Some people think that Wheeler’s gotten crazy in his later years, but he’s always been crazy!”"--from his website

He was an interesting person and its an interesting idea. Don't have a clue as to how one could falsify the notion though.

1

What a load of crap!

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