I made a fool of myself I am afraid.

@DavidLaDeau it happens to everyone. Frustration with ignorance can be a big motivator sometimes.

@AgeofReason I was completely corect and do not regret it. That being said i am going to write him a letter to explain that I care about him and that It would not be caring of me to allow a friend to live and make lifes decisions based on things that are not rwal and that he does not really believe in.

@DavidLaDeau better to ‘appear’ a fool than to ‘sit with lies!’

You are damn right they are dangerous. Hus is particularly dangerous ans he is a community leader.

@DavidLaDeau Oh my, a community leader? Wow, that is not good at all. Just think of the people that hang on his every word because of his “leadership”!! Scary indeed!

Its funny you mentioned that. He started throwing Bible passages at me. After the second time I finished the quotes for him and either quoted a scripture that said the opposite or summarily debunked them.
No shit I felt a little guilty for brazenly showing off that I knew more about his religion than he did. I felt a bit guilty and thrilled tearing apart bad ideas. I shpuld notnhave gotrwn joy thrills out of it that was my ego. I had to explain to this guy that the books of the Bible were not in chronoligical order! This is a preacher with a ministry to help vets. At least he does indeed help the vets too bad he feels compelled to fill them full of crap in the process.
He thought Adam wrote Genesis. I had to explain to him the the Books of Moses are attributed to Moses but he could not have written about what thwy did with his body after he died. He did not know that the books of Moses or "the law" was written after the Prophets as they never sighted or even indicated that they were aware of tthe law. Genesis was actually one of the last books written in the Old testiment.
I felt bad when I relized that he had no seminary education but had only recieved the "common knowledge" of Christianity.
In short, he was simplyntoo ignorant to comprehend his ignorance.

@DavidLaDeau these are what we call, ‘self appointed preachers!’ I had many uncles and grandfather who are in this group...bad people! They never changed and studied at any seminary...they just made it up as they went...and their congregation stood behind them no matter what they had done or accused of! ‘This is a man of god,’ was their words and still is!

@Freedompath This is one of the reasons that set me off. He is a respected community leader.

Neither is logic, I'm afraid. A forte' of the biblical bunch, that is.

That is what intellectually pissed me off. I had no emotions to speak of at the time, i was in no way angered. I was intellectually insulted to be honest. I don't believe in this crap really but I expect you to could not be a more dishonest position to have. The proble was this was coming from a person that I care about and respected ( past tense).

Yes I think I was a bit brutal that is what bothers me not the fact that I called him out. While I did not have any negative emotions, I was intellectually insulted and that pissed me off intellectually that he would have such nerve. And even more that I knew he was a good guy that I do respect. It was painfull to see a normally rational person delude themselves into irrational positions for something that did not exist.

Real friends don’t live a lie with each other! Let them go in peace, but selling our souls just to get along, will bring shame to all! Not healthy for old age!

@DavidLaDeau Have you heard of Anthony Magnabosco. Look him up on youtube. May come handy in the future.

@Jolanta Yeah I remeber thinking I can't S.E. this guy as he doesnt not care if his god is real.

Kinda funny that you said that. I am sure he and his wife who may have been present did believe ittnto be true. I did not bother to ask for the medical verification, video, the newspaper articles etc. It "happened" in a rural peasent village in Russia evidently in 94. That is to say at least they claim it happened. He was a mossionary in Russia.

@DavidLaDeau any story can be true from a distance and over time! If something medically happened and someone recovered that does not prove a god or that we can ‘raise the dead!’ I am skeptical of missionaries, they have a great capacity for illusions, promoted by the denomination that sponsored them! Their reality is not grounded in real life as it is, but in their mystical minds!

No he practically stormed out of the establishment. I felt bad to tell you the truth. I just did not regret what I did. It is just going to be a thing where we either do not talk anymore or perhaps we may become very good friends. I always said it takes a danm good friend to tell you the shit you don't want to hear. I do plan on writing him a letter explaining myself and why I did what I did. To include right or wrong how I percieved what he said. If he can not accept that I did what I did because I care then he is simply not worth my time.

I did not want to shut him up. I wanted tomprovoke thought and demonstrate that there are those that truely believe it to be bullshit for good reason. That is somthing to think about.

@DavidLaDeau I understand what you wanted. I was simply expressing what I prefer.

@Leelu Agreed! Lol

It is sad. This was (past tense ) someone who I really admired and respected. I can not respect a person who van not be honest with themselves and admit they don't care if their beliefs are true.

@DavidLaDeau I feel your pain... Believe me! While I can more easily handle religion... Friends who are Trump voters and are fervent in their support are dropping like flies around me.

I lost another one last night!

@DavidLaDeau THEY wholeheartedly believe what they believe, because their brains do not work with facts, evidence and changing their minds as new evidence is presented! That ‘got’ it the first time and that’s that...with them! Just check back in...in 15/20 years and their beliefs will be pretty much the same! I once ask a friend why she read the same scripture over and over AND over, and she told me, that she, ‘got something different each time she read it!’ Now, that is on the insanity side to me! Words are words in my mind...‘hot’ can never mean ‘cold’ or visa versa!

@Freedompath They wholeheartedly believe what they believe- yes I was one of those delusional crackheads! ( just a note only delusional crack heads can call each other delusional crack heads or we get all bent out of shape about it)

He had just discovered that he was not being honest with himself, he did not really believe what he thought he believed at the least. For the first time in his life he began to question god! So give him a break really.

Awe bullshit! He was actually thinking ooh my, Satan is testing me! He sent this demon possessed devil worshiper to undermine my ministry! Ooh Thank god! Satan feels threatend by my ministry because Jesus is doing his work there! Only the Devil doesn't know that God allowed Satan to think that so that god could give me the thumbs up and let me know that he approves of my work. Now I have to do this ten more times a day!!!!!!!!!!

Ha ha ha right. Yes I am making it a joke. The reason it is funny is there is always token of truth to a good joke. But here I actually completely serious. Dead FUCKING serious. This is exactly how these people think and how I was programmed to think. This is why I HAD to be an asshole and call him out. It really is delusional thinking. When people like Pence are in power it is very dangerous for all of us.

@DavidLaDeau I get it, I grew up in this...and I believe it almost destroyed me, but I found my way out! All I know from the outside is...that the way they can twist reality is ‘crazy making’ and I mean that in the real sense. If you can keep your sanity and be a loving human being in that delusion...more power to you! I cannot and will not!

@Freedompath Not on the religious side but I lost another friend due to outright blind belief of everything that Trump says. She stated she was going with him because of how he handled the market. When I posted a copy of 30 years of the Dow Jones... I had people jump me for manipulated CNN data. I was aghast! The DJIA is what it is... It is history and easily verified. It is truth! But they are too lazy to look and believe (and actually stated) that the market tanked all during Obama's term. They have no idea. I unfriended her and her cronies... I have better things to do.

@RiverRick sad to report, I have children in this category. There is little interactions, as their insistence on standing with the far-right positions, leaves little room for deep communication. This may change when trump is out of the picture...I hope! Then there are friends... gone!

Actually you are corect. He sponsored a big to do in our county called God and Country. I was roped into it by my girlfriend as we are Marine Corps League Members and sat a a booth. The whole thing was just religious people with booths tellign people about jesus. It was all about god and Nationalism. It was gutmwrenching to see. Perhaps that was a bit of what set me off before the conversation. At least there was many organiztions there that supposrt vets.

@DavidLaDeau
As a disabled veteran of SE Asia and Central America, god(s) had nothing to do with the killings and murders!
People kill and murder, god is just an excuse for them to justify the murdering and killings of those they do not agree with!

@DavidLaDeau ...makes sense...when sensible people get roped into the middle of this kind of program, it brings out the ire...’this is not truth, this is brainwashing!’ And we KNOW it!

@of-the-mountain Very sad, Very true.

I love your poster of Jesus holding T-rump-a-saurus down underwater for a "real" baptism!

@Khentyimentu
It is not mind!

It is open source, you can copy and use it anywhere if you want!!!

No actually he did but he ran out before I could thank him!

It would be something to bragg about as far as sticking it to someone, but sticking it to someone is not always productive nor something to necessarily be proud of.

@DavidLaDeau no you are correct, but maybe that was time and the place.

I kinda wanted to shock him as I realized that no one had ever challenged his beliefs that directly. I want to show him that I was completely fearless of his idle religious threats. It must be understood that he did not concieve of his words being threats.

@DavidLaDeau it sounds like you made a decision to stand in your ‘truth!’ It is hard to keep the ego from hitching a ride, and making the ‘truth’ become an attack, instead of a difference of views and knowledge! But, it appears that you gave it your best shot! Everyone can hone their skills! You too!

@Freedompath I normally do not "front off" people like that so I will never need or develop such skills, but did I mention he claimed tot raise the dead?

@DavidLaDeau It's important that you noticed that. BTW I like your other threads about:

• Christian atheists
• what's wrong with apologetics
• manifest destiny (I've seen several forms of that)
• interpretations of experience (closely connected with above)

I am 50 and I believe him to be about 60. Yes, I kinda spontaniously decided to give him the shock treatment, particularly when it appeared that no one had ever challenged his beliefs. I do understand what you are sayong. To tell you the truth it was very difficult to accept that I had easted mostmof my life believing things that were not true and makeing major life decisions that required me to move across the country for something that was not real. I was embarrised.

@DavidLaDeau my guess is, at this age, this person’s beliefs are written on every cell in his body! Maybe you made a crack in his armor, but don’t count on it! To be friends now...you will need to accept this person just as he is and live in your own truth! The rub will come when you cannot digest the harm that you feel this person brings to others by promoting this ‘dreamy’ way of reality! At least this has been my problem! If I am not ‘part of the solution, then I am part of the problem!’ This is my core values! But, I can face my loss, and let others go in peace...just without me!

Wow what a Nimrod! You see Nimrod was a very highly respected hunter and warrior in the Bible and Islamic traditions and is said to have founded Babylon.
It was in looney tunes where Buggs Bunny called Elmer Fudd "Poor little Nimrod" making a joke about him not being a very good hunter. People did not understand the reference so Nimrod became understood as idiot or fool.

So there is yet much more tomlaugh about now isn't there? He did not know whatmhe was saying and how he was taking his Bible Nimrod out of context but rather went with the common usage.

I am sorry when? If he does not wish tomspeak again then there was no friend to loose.

That is indeed part of it but there were Millions of otherwise perfectly rational people involved like my friend. Religion does in fact poison everything.

I shocked myself. I have never done such a thing. It was out of character for me. I am usually very approachable. In fact I am known for being a mellow very tolerent fellow in the atheist YouTube community. This time I justmlet loose on the poor deaerving fellow. I for the first time decided to go with the shock technique. I wanted to shock him with my disbelief and good reason for not believing. Guess I am not a yes man. Its too bad to as I would probably have a great carreer! Spent too much time telling the truth to bosses when they asked.

We are members of the Local Marine Corps League. Though we have become friends as we are often working together doing Community service projects. We are in the 5% of the people who does most of the work in organizations like this, Not bitching it is just the reason we have become close.

Iv'e moved small crowds with my breath too! Toothpaste did help.

I do not see it that way but I do appreciate your thoughts. He sat down at a casual dinner and told me he raised the dead for Christ sake. I tolerated that but when I asked him if his god was not real would he want to know. I had to ask him at least 4 times and he refued to say yes. Once he made it clear that he did not caremif it was real and continued it was then I let out the Kracken.

@DavidLaDeau There is an old expression that in polite company one should not discuss religion, sex or politics. I guess there must have been a good reason for that expression to develop. I think that is would have been better just to have pointed that out to him and then maybe talk about family, food, the weather, or whatever it was that brought you together in the first place. After dinner maybe you could have quietly decided that you didn't really want to have dinner with that guy again, but you at least would not have started WWIII in a restaurant with innocent victims in the cross fire.

@MyTVC15 Nope once he told me he resurected the dead and then made it clear he did not care if it was real it was all me . I was the asshole. I told my girlfriend this evening I don't regret what I said or did. But I was an asshole and was on his scent like a hound. Kinda assholeish.

@DavidLaDeau Well, I feel sorry for your girlfriend.

@MyTVC15 She actually was not mad. I think Imambeing harder on myself than anyone else involved. But really what I did debunking his crap does not top "I resurected a dead guy." One must keep things in perspective.

I do not believe it is possable to choose to belive something whithout any facts to back it up. For instance try to believe that Scooby Doo is a god. How did that work for you?
That being said I agree debate rarely changes minds. It started out as a discussion but did become a bit passionate. I do have a plan to reconsile the relationship while remaining firm in my position. That is siply to write him a personal letter explaining my past and how I percieved the situation right or wrong. If he can't deal with that then I did not loose a friend.