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That always made me crazy. Has anyone ever tried to talk a religious visitor out of their religion and into agnosticism?

UrsiMajor 8 May 29
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10

I would let them in set out snacks and coffee and have a Bible study with them sooner or later they would mention what a good Christian I was and I'd laugh and tell them Christians don't know the Bible like this, I'm an atheist.
They would make excuses to get the F out after that.
I was never visited by the same set of JW or Mormons twice.

8

That was me, when I was a Moron (oops, Mormon) missionary. Ugh.

And then you wised up. 🙂

Well, I guess it makes more sense than Scientology or Trumpism. No pain, no gain.

@anglophone Yes. And I'm VERY glad that I did wise up. 😀

@UrsiMajor Everything makes more sense than Scientology and Trumpism. Mormonism is not much better. It is really weird when you look into it.

7

It is wise to remember that the cult leaders who send them out. Having often done the same thing when younger. Are well aware that they will face hostility, and that the hostility will reinforce the view in them, that respect and friendship can only be found within the church. It is not about converting you, but about getting them to believe that the world outside the church is a hostile and frightening place.

Therefore be the nicest person they ever met for as long as possible, before you drop the bomb that you are a hard line (from their point of view ) sceptic. That is the best way to sow doubt.

Exactly!

I would add that actually talking to them, presenting your case for what you do believe to be true (that's a rather important aspect for any chance of their leaving the LDS) and avoiding the pitfalls of how their ideas are illogical or wrong, while being nice is how minds actually change. Again, just not in the moment. Eventually the Church becomes afraid of you. That's when persecutions start or they leave you entirely alone.

6

TIP: If you never want Mormons to knock on your door put up a mezuzah, regardless of your religion (or lack thereof). They're specifically not supposed to bother Jewish households. If they knock anyway and you answer the door, say nothing and just point to the mezuzah. They'll leave and send the info back to Mormon HQ to add your address to the list of places to not go.

The funniest thing I've ever heard about Mormons making that mistake was a friend who is an occasionally observant Jew. A pair of Mormon boys knocked on her door during Passover, while she was in the middle of a Seder. She made them come in and sit through the entire thing, complete with singing, and telling the story (in Hebrew). They were utterly terrified. I really wish I could have been there.

5

i know a family in Malaysia, the uncle had spent his life studying Hinduism, so when they came to his place he laid out the books he had and showed where they referenced jesus and how the bible talks about the birth and then his appearance as an adult but what was he doing in between? He was learning about the Eastern religions and so they were not xtians they were really Hindus and what more would they like to learn about their religion. This might take over an hour or more and they always left shell shocked.

5

I had a friend that told a group he would listen to them, but they would have to do the same with him in return. He sat and listen to their drivel, and when they stood to leave he reminded him of the deal. They had to sit and listen to him for over an hour while he told him about Asatru .

Asatru sounds like either a Pokemon or Godzilla character! Epic!

@UrsiMajor It does sound like it would be that, however it's the religion of the Norse people (Vikings).
[icelandmag.is]

4

No. Waste of time.

4

I used to tell them I was an atheist and that would just motivate them more. I started telling them I was a devout follower of Satan demanding they leave my house.

Did they think there was a difference? If you aren't willing to entertain their delusion is because the devil - Satan - has a strong hold on you. Sort of like the Dark Side from Star Wars.

@RussRAB it doesn't matter. I told them to GTFO.

@barjoe - Trust me, I understand. Nothing is as annoying than having someone interrupt your day coming to your door to sell you their delusion.

@RussRAB If they just ask for money, I give them a couple bucks to just get rid of them. If they proselytise, then l get rude.

@barjoe - The sale price is more than just money, although cash is generally part of what is expected. Total life devotion is often more along the line of the overall expectation.

@RussRAB For their boss it's the money. The money is butter for their schtick and does, in fact, keep them operating. I wouldn't do that, @barjoe, and encourage you to not.

@rainmanjr It depends. If they are locals, I donate. There are hundreds of people living on my block, they could be neighbors. Kids selling candy, I buy it. If they proselytise, I practically slam the door. I used to get Mormons, haven't seen those kids for years.

3
3

Oh Yeah, I had a Communist Best Buddy in High School circa Ealy 70s that made it his Mission in Life, Specially to the "jesus loves you hippies" of the Era!!!! I was Witness to Some Great Reactions. Like the former Addict that told us "he used to put Heroin down his veins and now he was injecting jesus on his veins instead".

3

Just a headache

bobwjr Level 10 May 29, 2021
3

NO! I have never tried to proselytize a True Believer. It's like trying to remove dried paint by staring at it. When somebody is thoroughly indoctrinated, it's a waste of time. Now then, when a believer has doubts and comes to me to ASK about alternatives, if I'm having a good day, I might throw him/her a few snippets. But don't bet on it.

3

My cousi(RIP) at a wedding reception was invited to a conservative church by the brides step mom, he said " I don't believe in that shit !"

3

We don't have 'those' people here but there is a group of JW's here. Once I found one of their fliers at my door so I got a copy of the FFRF newsletter and made a note and dropped it at their meeting house thanking them for their enlightening pamphlet and I am leaving something to also give them some information about my beliefs (or non).

Wonder if we could invoke Tom Cruise. Either a lecture from his Scientology or his Risky Business performance could get them out of there.

@UrsiMajor Not in this county. We do have a bunch of religious idiots here that drive around in a huge red hummer. Most of us see them for what they are, hypocritical fools. Believe it or not this is perhaps the most liberal county in the state and none of us have any problems announcing our atheism.

@JackPedigo What state /county?

@UrsiMajor Washington, San Juan Island county. Actually, we have a restaurant Ursa Minor (I guess there can be only 1 major LOL). [ursaminorlopez.com]

@JackPedigo Washington state has Archipelagos? This place sounds amazing. Definitely want to see this someday...

This has been my discovery week on this forum. I can now add basic geography to my unintended learning along with idiot-level history. Thanks all.

@JackPedigo I will announce it anywhere, or outright flaunt it, whether it’s the most religious area or not.

@UrsiMajor The ex-wife and I had a beach picnic lunch while driving down Whitbey Island and the entire day was awesome. I lived in Tacoma for a year, drove Uber during that time, so learned a bit about the mindsets in WA. They're very polite but, if they think you're a like mindset, one discovers many are more conservative than you'd guess. Especially among the Gen X and Millennials. I was surprised by things they said among each other in my car.

@UrsiMajor LOL did you see my recent posting titled Washington 100? This state has more islands than any other state in the contiguous US. The ferry system is the largest in the country and the third largest in the world. Our archipelago/county has some 175 named islands (those that are visible above high tide) 4 of the largest are ferry served. Many of the counties in W. Washington have islands and 1 county, Island county is composed of one large island, Whidbey. Slightly to the NW of us are the Gulf Islands which are a part of British Columbia. They have 5 ferry served island one of which, Salt Spring Island actually has 3 ferry terminals. Often the Washington State ferry system interacts with the BC ferry system. Combined this would make this the largest in the world. [wa100.dnr.wa.gov]
Here's a bit about the Gulf Islands. There are 200 of them. [gulfislandstourism.com]

3

I would never have the patience to do such a thing. I find willful ignorance irritating. 🤬

I wonder if there are certain things they can't eat. I wonder if shellfish or kosher or meat on Fridays gets involved. I'd make magic brownies and tell them whatever it is they can't eat is in there. Someday, we'll all be retired, but they are not getting any of my MJ magic brownies. That stash is for me when drug tests are a thing of the past!

3

When my father was in Hospice (dying), they sent a 'spiritual advisor' around several times who happened to be an ordained minister. He was Christian but I'm not sure exactly which sect.

My father was never particularly religious and wasn't very interested in arranging church services or any of that stuff.

Since the advisor was a morning person like me, he always arrived 2 to 3 hours before my father got out of bed. The advisor and I had several long talks about each other's beliefs.
Given the circumstances -- the advisor was a volunteer and my father was in Hospice -- the discussions never got too intense but I never hid that my wife and I are atheists and I hope I gave him some issues to think about.

Neither of us remotely swayed the other's core beliefs. Pretty much wasted time I guess.😎

When my father was on his death bed some of his final words were, "I want all of the psychics, therapists, and spiritualists outta here!"

@UrsiMajor
My mother, who passed years earlier, was very devout. She taught genealogy at the Mormon Temple in Mesa.

I always wondered how they stayed together for 50 years. I suspect that my father's choose-for-yourself attitude was a big part of it. She was not religious when I was younger.

3

I seldom let them in the door any longer. In the days that I did so, they often tried to convince me that we believed the same things. Recently a lifelong religious friend told me that even god does not know when Jesus will return. LOL I take that to mean it will not happen.

Another good idea would be to try to sell them some Avon products or Lulu clothes. Maybe some Cindy Crawford skin care sets.

It won’t.

3

"Your god is a genocidal maniac and you are a pair of ignorant fools."

Don't hold back, tell them what's on your mind.

@UrsiMajor I was gentler with the last pair of Morons that knocked on my door: I merely pointed out their logical fallacy of special pleading for their particular god. They ran away as fast as their legs could carry them, and they have never returned.

3

They're trained to resist all efforts to allow logic and reason to permeate their armor of ignorance. The JW or Mormon leadership can't take the chance of any of their robots suddenly seeing reality while witnessing for the church.

3

Only had them knock a few times, but I’ve invited them in to chat. I as them to explain important parts in their religion. They explain it from what they’ve read and been taught. I then ask them to explain how that is even logical. I keep asking for them to explain the logic and how it could actually be possible. It takes a bit, but they’ll eventually admit that they have no idea.
It’s a long but fun process.

The more I think about it, the more fun I think we could have with this. A few upside down crosses, some red food coloring. A bunch of people standing around chanting, yea Satan, Oh Satan..."

@UrsiMajor hahaha. That would be funny, but there’s more joy in watching them slowly squirm to explain their position as you continue to ask them to explain the understandable logic in it.
I never beat anyone up for their religious beliefs. In my head maybe a bit... or a lot, but I just want them to really really think about it.

@CourtJester Something tells me you're the right man for that job...

@UrsiMajor I don’t know. I’ve never gotten them to the point of having glasses of scotch with me, but I’ve seen them look at the floor and say “I really don’t know”. And that’s enough

2

It's really a lost cause. But Mormons are always upping their game, the last confrontation I had with them was actually at a university. They were stopping students arbitrarily everywhere. I was heading to a library and told them I was an Agnostic, then one of them told me they were once "Atheist". Then hilarity ensued - after providing like 30 contradictory points in their belief, I just left because they never listened to what I had to say.

One, or both, of them might have but people don't show it in the moment. It happens as we're trying to fall asleep.

I've had long experience with LDS and even got baptised as one at age 27 (or so). I then happened to take a college Ethics class which led to reading The Age Of Reason (Payne). I finished the last line and became a Deist. Getting out of the LDS Church wasn't just a "So long" thing. I threatened to argue my case openly against Missionaries sent to persuade me to stay and they finally ex-communicated me.

@rainmanjr I had taken a course on Western civilization, which had included the history of religion, and having been through that class helped me become the Agnostic I am today.

The incident then was quite silly, because the 3 Mormons that had stopped me had also brought along a Christian who they were also trying to convince before speaking to me, lol. Hopefully, that after all of the contradictions I tried to show them, they were able to question their beliefs. After that moment which was about 5 years ago I don't recall seeing Mormons ever again.

2

No. Usually I say not interested, if they start up again, I tell them... Look I told u I'm not interested. I'm a fucking atheist, if u wanna hear me out, I'll hear u out, otherwise I'm not interested. That's usually enough

2

I would never attempt to do that. It is one of those things people have to come to on their own.

2

I like it when they drop by, if I have the time to deal with them. The Momo's aren't nearly as well prepared as the JW's. They, as noted, are also more vulnerable to influence even though indoctrinated, because of their ages. All of these kinds of cults are fear based, so the way I approachthem is respectful and agreeing contextually with them; particularly as it applies to their intentions and work dedication. Its a way directly into their core to sing their praises for trying to improve people's lives in their work.

Nothing wrong with or hypocritical about that. Negative criticisms, arguments, dismissiveness and more are reactions they've been well prepared for reacting to with their talking point style recruitment program. When we are approached by those with whom we don't share perspectives with respect and appreciation for what we are working to achieve, we open up to them. Fear is somewhat dispelled. My approach is 'come, let us reason together' with them and with openness, seeds can be planted. Reasoning seeds don't germinate until circumstances are encountered that bring them to life; usually conflicting feelings.

So, to expect any kind of transformations to occur 'on the spot' isn't realistic. What happens follows the principle of 'what has been seen cannot be unseen'. I cut right to asking questions about how much they think that their god expects gratitude; especially for prayers answered and how they show it. Talk also about what a huge leap was made between ourselves and next closest species in so many abilities, not just reasoning, thinking and imagining. Gifts are given out of love and intended for use, aren't they? Isn't that your sentiment with ANY kind of gift you give to someone? Even a perfect stranger?

Not the place for carrying the hypothetical discussions on here. They're all different anyway. Basically I get them to give me a temporary VISA into their core with kindness and respect and dispell the vanguard's notions that 'we aren't meant to reason things for ourselves', that every bellowing Evangelical programmer redundantly warns them against. I ask how they would feel giving this or that special gift to a child of theirs (future in most cases), only to find later that it wasn't appreciated and instead of using it themselves, they abdicated it for someone else to use because that other child 'knew how to use it better'; perhaps something like a new bicycle they had trouble learning to ride. So along comes another child: "Hey, you're not very good at that. Give me the bike, I'm an expert rider and know the whole neighborhood. I'll come by sometimes and ride you on the handlebars."

In a similar fashion, this is how religious leaders get to us why we're still struggling with our developing ability to think and reason. Though usually early in childhood, it also happens later in life. The ways and means of orienting them to this are different and not necessarily as direct as described. The seeds planted are conflicting things that aren't answerable in reasonable fashion. With the Mormons my favorite is about how it happens that since neither the angel nor Joseph Smith nor (presumably) God were 16th or 17th /century Englishmen, the Book of Mormon and all of Smith's revelations were written in archaic English? Smith wrote his memoirs in contemporary 19th Century English. For the JW's it gets a little trickier because they are so 'scripture' fixated but on things like women's positions in their congregations and the whole 'headship principle' against claims of steadfastly emulating the 'Kingdom' on the way, they can be a lot of fun too.

Well, that's certainly taking the high road and getting something (possibly) accomplished. I'm amazed with some of the patience others have with conservatives and they use their knowledge as power without being condescending instead of terrorizing people. Something to think about.

@UrsiMajor There's a familiar, well accepted saying that 'we are what we eat'.
that we consist of what we consume (let in). The same principle applies to the intangibles. The notions and ideas about things that we accept eventually become the socially functional composition that we call ourselves; usually by some adopted name or classification like Christian, Communist, Hindu, racial, sexual, ethnic or other type supremacist are some of my favorite labels.

When what we've consumed as being 'so', whether voluntarily or force fed, attacks on or criticisms of our 'isms' are tantamount to personal assault. Since most isms are cultish and fear based, the mental shields go up right away and there is no penetrating them. The task, as I see it, is to stimulate the very processes that people surrender or abdicate in order to become an 'ist' in the first place. Get them thinking. Plant seeds that will germinate at the right season of their confinement.

There is also a physical : mental comparison that works for me; though no few orthodox psychologists have objected. It is the functionally identical comparison of a phenomenon occurring in physical captivity that correspondingly occurs in mental - programmed - captivity. Stockholm Syndrome is a reaction over time to physical confinement wherein one surrenders self, taking on shared identity with a captor. It is fear based and the same kind of melding of identity takes place with ideological and other cult captives. They strongly identify with that which holds them prisoner and no walls or bars are required. They can be monitored and controlled by fear of being 'seen' as incompatible with doctrines by peers and even more so, leaders.

This is why labels serve to confuse and actions and outcomes clarify. Application of common functional principle to analysis of actions discloses how much, allegedly different isms really are alike. Among the root 'bars and walls' of ideological cults one finds slavish abdication of reasoning faculties as part of the price of admission. The key to intellectual and therefore LIVING freedom is thinking. Reasoning can open the mental locks and it can be started by planting seeds that germinate via frustrations and identify conflicting cognitions within both the individual and the cult. It doesn't work with everyone and never works without the all important mother of Truth, called Time.

@Silver1wun How would you handle a Nazi?

@UrsiMajor Fear based cults vary, like any other groupings, by degrees of intensity and layers of indoctrination. Within more militant fanatic cults dangers are most intense because the price paid by apostates can be life itself, whereas with less intensity repercussions aren't so final. With organized ( rather than merely ideological) supremacists reasoning is no longer a realistic option. There is no 'handling'. Cults in state (regime) form efficiently liquidate any who fall too far out of line. That is the Achilles heel of the political Zionists right now. For all their racial and religious supremacy, they oddly are helpless to do more than rough-up and demonize internal 'refuseniks' and critics. If they were as efficient as their erstwhile tormenters, they'd have already wiped out populations in 'Greater Israel' with ease decades ago.

I guess the easy handling answer is 'it depends on the duration and intensity of infection'.

@Silver1wun

2

You explain to them Jesus character is a mind meme organism Lucifer the devil. You would have to know illogical atheist Richard Dawkins mind organism and be able to explain how the biblical text says Jesus character was a mind virus that evolved into a person.

Word Level 8 May 29, 2021

And there's why such arguments don't work.

@rainmanjr I don't see what you are calling an argument. It is an observation, that is, observable based on understanding of illogical atheist Richard Dawkin's mind virus organism in view on statements written in biblical text and observable with in the cultures and cultures currently observable in human populations.

Culture used twice for meaning both definitions (or senses) of the word.

  1. the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group.

  2. the cultivation of bacteria, tissue cells, etc. in an artificial medium containing nutrients.

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