How does Trump hate the USA?

@Heavykevy1985 he always has since he holds grudges for any imagined wrong ...just my opinion but I think that he hates America for not buying his crap and making him a success .... and now for not giving him power and regulating or trying to regulate and check his criminal activities which we will uncover for years id we can keep him from power

@whiskywoman none of those prove that he hates America.

@Heavykevy1985 I never said I had proof fuck off an opinion doesn't need proof
its in every thing he has done and the way he is destroying our country

I agree. I have always rejected the rapid anti Americanism of some of the global Left despite knowing all about America's wars, false flags, covert programs, international interference and a multitude of sins, because I think the core values of America, not its practise, are helpful in balancing the dictators who would surely take over the world if they had a chance. But all the world can see that either America reforms or it fails and time is running out and it doesn't look good. An entrenched authoritarian America supporting global authoritarianism -- as we saw during Trump -- truly is the onset of a dark age.

@David1955 you know, the way you describe the dictators taking over the world could be equally applied to the European criminals and warlords who took over the Americas in the 1700s...

By not dealing with its demons of hate and discrimination, the United States has brought Western civilization within striking distance of the precipice...

America is always been unfit to lead... The world has been inconvenient denial.

@domos So what is the solution?

@Jolanta VOTE!

@Mooolah I don't think voting is enough.
I think it's time we make it legally mandatory for full economic and political divestment from America's seditious norms...

In other words, we need to finish reconstruction. And bring a proper end to the first civil war before the second begins.

We need to make participation in these conspiracies of sedition financially, economically and politically costly and automatic. We need to make sure people are rewarded socially and economically for facing the difficult and painful challenges of creating an equal society.

We need to do as much as practically possible, at the individual level, to avoid contributing to the economic benefit of individuals, institutions, and norms that condone the type of misinformation we see being strategically deployed to facilitate a coup d'etat..

Only when we do all these things do our votes have the proper wait and power necessary to deal with this type of threat.

That is my opinion.

@domos "The arc of history bends toward justice". Live long enough to witness justice is beyond the human life span. Much of this could have been prevented by people NOT believing the polls, NOT being complacent, NOT making excuses & NOT disliking Hilary. If "our" people had come out in 2016 this could have been avoided, in hindsight. That the disgruntled, reactionary, subjects of the right were stoked by an ignorant, authoritarian candidate, & that highly qualified Hilary was so unpopular resulting in her losing the electoral count, is evidence of a lack of an educated voting class. Now the mere count is in question, fueled by the internet's ability to spread innuendo which will cause more mistrust of government. The only solution, the only recourse is voting at this point lest we once again fall into the abyss of violence & chaos. Americans have been so insulated by geography. So dominant in our foreign policy towards other nations. The chaos we caused is coming home to roost & only voting can alter this trajectory. Democracy is ponderous & fragile. Dictatorial systems are less so. Somehow that we elected a crook, an actor, a reality TV host indicates to me that critical thinking is absent in the electorate, manipulation is not absent & that is a failure of our educational system.

@Mooolah well I generally agree with your sentiments, I think you're making the mistake of attributing to individual responsibility larger systemic problems.

It's like big tobacco using the argument of personal responsibility and individual action to deflect from the fact that their products are addictive and neurochemically hinder one's ability to effectively exercise personal responsibility.

We have a misinformed public because our the discrimmatory norms are so extreme that they require the political system to be dependent on consistently under informed and educated populations/subpopulations.

The voting was ever enough to alter the situation, America would have changed drastically by now.

The painful history of this country is that oftentimes it is a combination of disaster, violence and systemic accountability that makes voting powerful.

Don't know what you mean by "our" people. But at the end of the day, voting is no substitute for finishing reconstruction.

Voting is just a means to that end.

Unless we start voting in some really uncomfortable and difficult countermeasures against this sedicious fervor ( that we allowed to fester for at least 60 years) it's just a matter of time before The house of cards crumbles.

@Mooolah I do. In Australia where I live it is compulsory to vote.

@Jolanta dissidents never have solutions just a big stick to stir the pot while they bitch

not true

@whiskywoman Ok, which parts don't seem true, to you?

Me too, but Trump dying won't solve this problem in America though as an evil agent it might help. Truth is, the fascist end of the US ruling class has decided it is bored with the pretense of a democracy there which it gone along with until now for show, and now just wants to have a Putin-like authoritarian system with them winning every rigged election and their oligarchs in control of everything. They don't want more Obamas, or other 'undesirables' thinking they have right to have power in America. Trump is their buffoon, with more on the way. Moreover, his brain-dead followers will make him a martyr, claiming murder.

David is right. Donald Trump is the symptom. A few months ago Mitch McConnell was basically trying to rest control of Trump leaning Republicans rather than expel them from the political stage... Even though it would cost the Republicans a few election cycles.

The fact that Republicans are so adverse to putting their house in order even if it means being out of power for a few political cycles really highlights the extent to which this coup attempt is institutional.

Imagine if Donald Trump had the charisma and forethought of a Bill Clinton... We'd probably be building Holocaust style gas chambers and incinerators across the country by now.

Problem is, there are plenty of maniacs out there that will try to assume his mantle if he does croak. Some of them may be just as good as he is at treason.

@David1955 they have excited the base beyond control and are having trouble reining them in ...they fucked up big

The Republican Party should be de-registered, but first Amercans need to vote massively against it. Trouble is 75 million voted for it last time, and will again. This is where the sickness really is -- in the hearts of Americans, voting against their own interests, most people.

The word you're looking for is seditionists... The Republican party has made itself the political face of white ISIS.

TDS is a disease that Trump supporters have.

This compares to nothing we have overcome before....
Bill is spot on.

@Buck He is usually correct, I do hope that this time he is in error. The one thing that I can say is that, predicting the future, especially political future, is almost impossible. Key players die suddenly, or are found to have f##ked someone else's partner, people do things like crash planes into buildings with all sorts of unforseen political consequences, the world is a very unpredictable place.

@Fernapple That it is. However all the money keeps rising to the top, and we all know what that always leads to....

@Buck Sadly yes. A few years ago I read a book called Rubicon by Tom Holland, about the last days of the Roman republic, and how its fall into the hands of dictators became inevitable, a story of class divisions, social breakdown, the loss of ideology, and economic corruption. It was all so familiar.

@Fernapple Trump dying won't make this problem go away. Should he die, even of obvious natural causes, his MAGATs will claim murder and turn him into a martyr and another front man for the fascists will pick up the mantle.

@Fernapple When I was in college a long time ago, a Sociology professor said that we were on the fast track to fall just as Rome did. He talked about a book that made that prediction but I could not remember the name of the book. "Rubicon" is not old enough to be the book he was talking about, but I have always wondered what he was referring to.

@MyTVC15 Sorry can't help with that, it is not a new idea to draw parallels between ancient civilizations and modern ones, (often they are of very debatable value) so it could be one of many.

OK, wiseguy. Who are the actual handlers of Trump? This is simply a statement to cause you to think. It is not an invitation for endless distractions.

@DenoPenno Answering a question with a question. Don’t hurt yourself there buddy.

@Heavykevy1985 I did not answer a question. I made a statement that should have caused you to think that if Biden has handlers then Trump must have had handlers also. That's all I said and you tried to change or distract from what I said.

So, how are things on Earth2? Not good here on Earth1, the real one.

@DenoPenno no. You answered a question with a question. You are aware there was an interrogative statement in your reply, right?

Good bye

When it becomes toxic and a culture where people lose sight of the social contract in a civil society, people and political parties.

@David1955 social contract? Individuals pursuing their own interests has allowed humanity to advance further than any other society. Collectivism has led famine and untold suffering at a magnitude of over 100 million dead. Civil society begins with the acknowledgement of the dignity of individuals.

@Heavykevy1985 Yeah, it is all about you and no matter what happens to anyone els.

@Jolanta yeah, personal responsibility. I love it.

The American approach to individualism is not the only approach and it's certainly not one suited to the challenges humanity is facing today.

@domos I would pick individualism over collectivism any day of the week.

@Heavykevy1985 You're making broad assumptions about the natures of individualism and collectivism.

If your politics and belief require you to have fixed definitions of those things, that is your choice.

How, neither time nor nature have infinite patience for the inflexible or those who are slow too adapt.

@domos no I am not but prove me wrong here

@Heavykevy1985 define exactly what you mean by individualism and collectivism first.. And then you have to explain that it is the only definition of those two terms that applies the broad scope of human culture and civilizations.

If you cannot provide that context to my initial counter point, then the discussion cannot proceed In any focused or logical manner.

America is nothing only nation-state or civilization to have ever tackled the balance between these two things before, this, it is not logical to treat it like the current definitions of these terms in American culture are the only valid ones.

@domos already did. Individualism involves individuals pursuing their own interests free of government interference and giving them agency over their lives and actions.
Collectivism is eschewing the aspiration of the individual for the sake of the group, which has had disastrous results every time i.e. socialism and communism. Words have meaning, fam. Individuals like Steve Jobs, Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller, Henry Ford, etc. achieved at the highest level and for the betterment of mankind because they were allowed to pursue their “selfish” interests. Please tell me how by hindering individuals for the sake of the collective will lead to the upward mobility of mankind. Like the saying goes “government is not the solution; it is more often not the problem.” I have not made any broad assumptions. You argue in bad faith.

@Heavykevy1985 I'm sorry, your definitions of individualism and collectivism are not practical or reasonable... Even within the context of the American experience.

Manifest destiny was he government supported expansion executed by individuals. That alone is a blatant example of how individualism is very much partnered with collectivism.

Many of the examples of individualism you listed had their success dependent on decades worth of government / collective initiative and education... None of which would have been possible had collectivist norms/practices like taxes and education modernization had not been implemented.

Simply put, I think your definition is not accurate to how individuals and systems interact. I think your definition is too focused on ideology than reality to be practical.

I I cannot find any logical use for it other than purely ideological discourse which I have no interest in.

@domos again, you deny reality on the ground. Going all the way back to Jamestown where originally, the land was communally and people were hoarding all the corn and crops to the point of shortages. Then John Smith, the governor said that individual farms should be planted. This was implemented and the lands were more efficiently to the point of crop surpluses.

The successes I listed are despite government regulations. My definitions are accurate. Whether you accept the reality on the ground or not is your stupidity. You yourself have not given your own definitions of what those terms mean to counter my point and the only thing you have to counter is your own subjective opinions, no evidence. Taxes as in yeah, you try not paying your taxes. That is coercion by the state. John D. Rockefeller and Andrew Carnegie gave more to charity VOLUNTARILY than taken out in taxes.

Also, how is public education especially in the blue states? A real shit pile. Unions have blocked all meaningful reforms to education, hindering individuals from choosing what schools their child can attend. Individualism is the antidote to collectivism. Individuals can choose to associate with groups, which would be a voluntary choice. With Westward expansion, the government may have opened up the land but it was individuals who pursued their own goals that made the land prosperous. A person who autonomy over himself and the fruits of their own labor has led the upward mobility of mankind, no collectivism.

In closing, you failed to demonstrate why collectivism is a better alternative than individualism but instead have idiotically tried to pin me down to an argument of semantics because you lack any breadth of knowledge when it comes to the march of history. Even the examples, scant as they were, were self-refuting including manifest destiny. If you are not interested in debate, why you keep replying?

@Heavykevy1985 I think your latest response more or less makes my case.

I don't think our discourse can continue after that. Thank you for your time.

@domos I don’t think so. You have been weighed, measured, and found wanting, my dear boy. Tra la!

@Heavykevy1985 oh spare us your simplistic Ayn Rand type toxic individualism.

@Heavykevy1985 until you fall into a bucket of shit and then you look to the government for help, like most hypocritical right wingers who always feel they are deserving but no one else is.

@David1955 I avoid asking the government for help. The bucket of shit was more than likely created by government. You may not worship God but you worship government.

@Heavykevy1985 oh you 'avoid' any support services. I see. That's not the same as refusing any and all support services and living and dying according to your own means, is it? Perhaps you are stinking rich, so the point is moot. Lucky you. And, I don't worship anything, but I do believe in a mixed economy, with a balance of a public and private sectors, fair taxation based on means, a well run welfare and health system to minimise poverty and extremes of wealth, and a social contract where, instead of gross toxic individualism, there is an acceptance of freedoms and responsibilities to the society in which we live. You may be very surprised to learn that some societies function on this basis. They're not perfect, no society is, but compared to the perverse Ayn Randian toxic reactionary individualism that is now killing America, I'll take it any time. Good day.

@David1955 no. The welfare state is what exacerbated poverty. If it worked, then why was LBJ’s welfare programs a failure? No, the neoliberal model of mixed economy is what is unsustainable and leading us into more and more debt. The only role of government should be are to guarantee individual liberty and to protect property, not to intrude in our daily lives. Individuals unleashing their creative potential and innovating without government interference is what is the lifeblood of a free society, all the while your nanny state stymies that.

Also Fiona Hill.