Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
I think the answer is is quite important as it would show us the cause/source of homosexuality.
If God, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?
Regards
DL
6
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18 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.I believe that homosexuality is Nature's way of controlling population. Tat as population grows, so stress grows and Nature's answer is to increase homosexuality and decrease fertility. I think everyone is homosexual to a degree.Cortizone might be the answer.
rogerbenham
Level 8
Jan 31, 2022
1
You give nature sentience and feelings about us.
Not something I would do.
Regards
DL
@Greatest Feelings? You should read up about the Sika deer experiment in the 1950's. Cortizone was the only thing that was found to be very high when 1/3rd of them suddenly dropped dead from overpopulation stress although they still had enough food. But people in New York were found to have levels ten times higher than normal but still were alive.
Homosexuality and infertility had both been observed increasing through the years as the population of deer increased.
@rogerbenham Link.
And don't be an asshole and tell me to Google it. The assertion is yours, and so is the evidentiary burden.
No god botherers here: best stick to able2know or try slug.com
waitingforgodo
Level 8
Jan 30, 2022
1
They are indeed getting rare.
Even when you find one, they are not good apologists.
Thanks for the leads.
Regards
DL
Or God?
Why the fuck are you on this platform?
Toonman
Level 6
Jan 30, 2022
1
To raise the quality of apologetics.
Why do you ask?
Regards
DL
Because your question seems to be made made by a reasonably smart person in bad faith, or by an incredibly stupid person in good faith.
Which one are you?
Nobody here would attribute homosexuality or literally anything else to God.
And ultimately, Christians only care about the cause of homosexuality because they think it requires a cure.
They're hateful, willfully ignorant shitheads. Now that I remember this I am now considering your question to be asked in bad faith by an incredibly stupid person.
How would you raise the quality of apologetics? By raising their merits from dogshit to horseshit?
@Toonman I love this response so much. chef's kiss
From what I have read, homosexuality evolved as a form of species survival.
The problem is when it comes to homosexuality, most people only think in term of modern day humans. However science has recorded homosexuality as being present is thousands of species.
In order to understand how homosexuality evolved as trait for species survival, you have to go way back in our evolution. AS an example, imagine rodents that reproduce more than three times a year. When food becomes scarce it would cause stress, which would flip a meta-genetic switch of during fetal gestation which would change sexual orientation of the offspring to homosexual. That would mean less reproduction, a smaller population and more food to go around insuring survival of the species.
Strangely, the studies that first showed that pregnant mothers under stress are much more likely to have homosexual children came out of the old USSR. It is a remnant trigger of what was once millions of years ago a species survival mechanism.
You may wonder why, if it is no longer needed in the same way way that our ancient rodent ancestors needed it to survive, that it is still present today. The answer is simple. There is no survival disadvantage that could supersede it to remove it from the genome over time.
It has been theorized that in pre-civilizations, homosexuals who didn't have children performed tribal duties which those who were burdened by children would not perform due to parental responsibilities. Meaning that just five thousand years ago, homosexuality still provided an advantage for species survival.
It is evolution alone that is responsible for homosexuality, because it provided a means for species to better survive over the long run.
snytiger6
Level 9
Jan 29, 2022
5
Even as 99% of all species that have lived have gone extinct.
Nature creates for our best possible end.
Our best end, given we need attraction to the opposite sex to reproduce, is not to have a suicide gene that creates gays.
Let's all trust Russian science. Joking of course.
Regards
DL
- You obviously, incorrectly, believe that nature (evolution) has intention (and foresight) such that it modifies genetics to create mutations it knows will be beneficial in whatever future environment the being and its offspring will find itself. That could not be more wrong, on so many levels, even if a evolutionarily biologist tried to write the most ridiculously wrong thing he could just for laughs.
- If you were correct that nature has control of these devices to create "our best possible end" how could you possibly explain such horrible designs like having our food pipe and our wind pipe be a common pipe allowing some to choke to death before they could reproduce? How about sterility? How about a hatred of children and a desire to never reproduce? How about suicidal ideation?
I implore you to learn at least the fundamentals of evolutionarily biology before speaking any further on the subject.
Definitely through nature.
also they CAN choose their gender. They cannot choose their biological sex, if that's what was meant. I'm not sure what you want you want to hear.
TimeOutForMe
Level 8
Jan 29, 2022
1
I did not choose.
My DNA and chemistry did.
When did you choose to be whatever you are, gay or straight?
Why did you choose as you did.
Regards
DL
@Greatest
I suggest you go back to my comment and read it again. You were talking about Gays, not me. Cheers
This has long been settled. Nature - it is the hard wiring of the brain. The nurture bullshit is just that BULLSHIT. As far as god, I don't believe in one, but if there were one, he/she would be the same as nature.
Beowulfsfriend
Level 9
Jan 29, 2022
8
When I was a Christian I believed that homosexuals had chosen that lifestyle. This belief was shared by other believers who really want to define "sin" and choosing to "sin." Various bible verses back this up so it is no wonder that Christians believe in "conversion therapy." The problem is that nobody then (and not too many now) understand genes and chromosomes. These point you in the direction you go with. There is no choice to it. I still have trouble with people saying they knew by age 6 what gender they were sexually attracted to. At age 6 I did not want to kiss anyone. If a 6 year old boy, for example, is only comfortable playing with girls I'm not sure it is a sexual identification at this time. He is making an early choice that will help show his gender ID later on. However you think of these things rest assured that gods have nothing to do with it. Strictly us and our genes and chromosomes.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Jan 29, 2022
2
I had a "girlfriend" in 3rd grade and that's only like 8yo, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think some people could know what they're attracted to by 6...
@JeffMurray I agree
My ex Gay PA told me he played with dolls and remembered from age 5. His gran also told me that he wanted dresses and dolls from 3 or 4yrs old. Having heard this I have to think they know earlier.
@JeffMurray I have several friends who all knew they did not view the world as the stereo types portrayed it to be. All were around 6 years old. It was not sexual but as they remember they all had older sisters and it was when they brought their boyfriends home and realized they thought of them as beautiful but were unmoved by the girls their sisters brought over for sleep overs. These episodes were their first real awareness of a difference, and it WAS confusing, disconcerting and not easy. Humor was their way of dealing.
@TimeOutForMe I agree with the awareness mentioned here by ages 6 and 8 etc. but it was not a noticed sexual awareness at that time. One example from my childhood is that we all gave Valentines to both sexes.
@DenoPenno awareness of their gender started early. I agree not sexual awareness at this point.
- Where did you get the notion that believers think god created people as homosexuals? I was under the impression that a vast majority of Christians believe that free will exists, that homosexuality is a choice, and that homosexuals have chosen that for themselves.
- I believe most of the research done on the subject points to a combination of genetic, hormonal, and intrauterine-environmental factors being the cause. Additionally, there seems to be a decent amount of evidence against "nurture" or socialization type causes for homosexuality.
ChestRockfield
Level 8
Jan 29, 2022
5
Short answer.
We are created in God's image, and he is subject to all that we are born with, including our sexual instincts.
Place no name above God for being the Gayest.
Regards
DL
@Greatest Again, the intent of your comment is inscrutable.
@Greatest "We are created in God's image"? Really? I suggest you learn to think before engaging with intellectual middleweights such as me, let alone intellectual heavyweights such as @JeffMurray.
Gender orientation is usually set before the third birthday (google it) and many people will tell you they've always felt that way despite trying to fight it. That's a good argument for nature. I've seem arguments suggesting it could be caused by womb environment, (hormonal balance) but nothing conclusive. It's difficult to get funding and ethics approval to do research in those areas.
Cyklone
Level 7
Jan 29, 2022
6
Want a weird angle to hook them with?
The fact that in a few years, we will have an app, I mean, a DNA zipper for that.
Regards
DL
An old question. If god is the creator, then how can you disrespect his creation, and if you find something imperfect in that creation, then how are you not disrespecting the creator ?
Fernapple
Level 9
Jan 29, 2022
3
I think that's why free will is so important to the religiously-bigoted. They need to be able to blame this thing they love to hate on humans instead of their god.
"The cause/source of homosexuality"? Why should it be just one cause or source?
I am not in the business of speculating about the motives of non-existent entities.
anglophone
Level 9
Jan 29, 2022
2
Two different issues.
I do not ignore women and gays, as they are religions longest lasting victims.
You might have a few of them in your family and perhaps wise to ignore that fact.
Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions, if you live by the golden rule.
Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Regards
DL
@Greatest You have failed to answer my question of you about why there be just one cause or source of homosexuality. You have also gone off in a direction that has nothing to do with your original post.
God? Seriously?
When considering nature vs. nurture, why not consult the bonobos?
p-nullifidian
Level 8
Jan 29, 2022
3
Why?
Would you greet me by sucking on me?
No thanks.
Regards
DL
@Greatest So then does that mean you believe homosexual behavior is learned or unnatural?
And gawd said, "as you treat the least of these, you are treating me" in about 50 places in the babble.
So he/she/it is creating them as a test!
Point this out to any homophobes you know......
But actually, I want to know why you, among the other "wonder-ers" are spending your time by speculating about what others are doing in the bedroom?
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Jan 28, 2022
7
Homosexuality is present in countless species. It provides parents for orphaned and abandoned young. so makes perfect sense it is found in numerous species.
Druvius
Level 8
Jan 28, 2022
7
Evolutionary biology has no intention. This could be a happy effect, but not a cause of homosexuality.
Yes, by nurture, because crowding increases homosexuality. And that is still a natural process, so nature too. If God existed, then one could claim he caused it as much as anything else. And I believe some studies suggest homosexuality is associated with certain genes.
One cannot answer or speculate on God's motivations meaningfully. If you must, you may suppose it is another manifestation of love.
racocn8
Level 9
Jan 28, 2022
1
What stats do you have on population pressures boosting gay behavior?
Stats I recall have a stable 3% gay representation over growing populations.
Regards
DL
@Greatest There were experiments conducted on crowding rats way-back... 60's maybe? Scientists inferred homosexuality by observing male-male mounting. Perhaps that is not a suitable analogy to Human homosexuality? Also, rats became depressed, not wanting to fight for access to food, and would cower in corners. That's what I recall.
I have asked that very question of some believers.
I have asked if they believe their god created everything. When they answer in the affirmative, I ask them where they come off disrespecting their god's creations?
Then I point out that homosexual behavior is naturally occurring in well over 1500 species besides humans, and didn't their God create them, too?
That usually shuts them up, or leaves them sputtering.
KKGator
Level 9
Jan 28, 2022
15
Don't they just say some form of 'he created the sinner, not the sin'?
@JeffMurray How is a male giraffe having lots of male-on-male sex a sin?
@JeffMurray Whenever that has happened, I always ask if their god didn't create sin, too?
Sometimes, I've had to go as far as to ask them if their god sends animals to hell.
Usually though, by then they've run off, calling me a demon as they go.
@Beowulfsfriend I'm not saying it's a sin. I don't believe in sins. Maybe you missed the 'they' in my reply?
@KKGator They would say he didn't. That he gave man free will and they used it to do evil. Obviously none of this makes any sense or holds water, but in my experience these are the types of things they tell themselves to square their beliefs with the nature of reality enough that it doesn't all fall apart for them.
A good question and one that not even the Godsters can answer truthfully or honestly.
As a Psychologist I would posit that it COULD be a combination of numerous influences such as,
Genetics,
Social Influences,
Nurturing,
Hormonal Influences, just to put forward a few.
BUT, despite what the Godsters would have the world think and believe, Homosexuality in the Natural World is almost as common-place as is breathing.
Triphid
Level 9
Jan 28, 2022
5
I dontvthink nurture has anything to do with a person being homosexual. I believe nurture may inhibit or allow a person to be open about their sexuality.
@Beowulfsfriend A case of Yes and No imo, IF the 'so-called' nurture creates an adverse ideology in the mind of the child then that may well carry through in to later adult/adolescent life thus exerting influences upon the sexual thoughts etc, of the person.
@Triphid I think nurture can and does affect how someone acts. Yet, if they are mentally hard wired to have certain sexual feelings, those feelings will be there. I know that nurture plays a part, sometimes a big part, in how people act.
@Beowulfsfriend Yes and in many ways as well but mostly in the psychological mannerisms, etc, of the person, i.e. the persona/anima/animus, but that all depends also, imo, on how the person 'learns' to handle/deal with the influences, good/bad or indifferent, emanating from that nurturing.
Yes.
skado
Level 9
Jan 28, 2022
3
Yes to WHICH may one inquire since a simple, single yes is somewhat meaningless and a broad spectrum type response from someone whom, imo, is merely responding to gain points but NOT contribute to the discussion.
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