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SCIENTISTS GENERALLY AGREE…

“Scientists generally agree with the idea that a propensity to engage in religious behavior evolved early in human history.

However, there is disagreement on the exact mechanisms that drove the evolution of the religious mind. There are two schools of thought. One is that religion itself evolved due to natural selection and is an adaptation, in which case religion conferred some sort of evolutionary advantage. The other is that religious beliefs and behaviors, such as the concept of a protogod,[2][3] may have emerged as by-products of other adaptive traits without initially being selected for because of their own benefits.[4][5][6] A third suggestion is that different aspects of religion require different evolutionary explanations but also that different evolutionary explanations may apply to several aspects of religion.[7]

Religious behavior often involves significant costs—including economic costs, celibacy, dangerous rituals, or the expending of time that could be used otherwise. This would suggest that natural selection should act against religious behavior unless it or something else causes religious behavior to have significant advantages.[8]

Religion as an adaptation

Further information: Psychological adaptation, Handicap principle, and Signalling theory

Richard Sosis and Candace Alcorta have reviewed several of the prominent theories for the adaptive value of religion.[4] Many are “social solidarity theories”, which view religion as having evolved to enhance cooperation and cohesion within groups. Group membership in turn provides benefits which can enhance an individual’s chances for survival and reproduction. These benefits range from coordination advantages[6] to the facilitation of costly behavior rules.[5]

Sosis also researched 200 utopian communes in the 19th-century United States, both religious and secular (mostly socialist). 39 percent of the religious communes were still functioning 20 years after their founding while only 6 percent of the secular communes were.[9]

The number of costly sacrifices that a religious commune demanded from its members had a linear effect on its longevity, while in secular communes demands for costly sacrifices did not correlate with longevity and the majority of the secular communes failed within 8 years.

Sosis cites anthropologist Roy Rappaport in arguing that rituals and laws are more effective when sacralized.[10]

Social psychologist Jonathan Haidt cites Sosis’s research in his 2012 book The Righteous Mind as the best evidence that religion is an adaptive solution to the free-rider problem by enabling cooperation without kinship.

[11] Evolutionary medicine researcher Randolph M. Nesse and theoretical biologist Mary Jane West-Eberhard have argued instead that because humans with altruistic tendencies are preferred as social partners they receive fitness advantages by social selection,[list 1] with Nesse arguing further that social selection enabled humans as a species to become extraordinarily cooperative and capable of creating culture.[16]

Edward O. Wilson’s theory of “eusociality” strongly suggests group cohesion as the impetus for the development of religion. Wilson posits that the individuals of a small percentage of species (including homo sapiens, ants, termites, bees and a few other species) replicated their genes by adhering to one of a number of competing groups. He further postulates that, in homo sapiens, thanks to their enormous forebrains, there evolved a complex interplay between group evolution and individual evolution within a group.[17]

These social solidarity theories may help to explain the painful or dangerous nature of many religious rituals. Costly-signaling theory suggests that such rituals might serve as public and hard-to-fake signals that an individual’s commitment to the group is sincere. Since there would be a considerable benefit in trying to cheat the system—taking advantage of group-living benefits without taking on any possible costs—the ritual would not be something simple that can be taken lightly.[4] Warfare is a good example of a cost of group living, and Richard Sosis, Howard C. Kress, and James S. Boster carried out a cross-cultural survey which demonstrated that men in societies which engage in war do submit to the costliest rituals.[18]

Studies that show more direct positive associations between religious practice and health and longevity are more controversial. Harold G. Koenig and Harvey J. Cohen summarized and assessed the results of 100 evidence-based studies that systematically examined the relationship between religion and human well-being, finding that 79% showed a positive influence.[19] Such studies rate in mass media, as seen in a 2009 NPR program which covered University of Miami professor Gail Ironson’s findings that belief in God and a strong sense of spirituality correlated with a lower viral load and improved immune-cell levels in HIV patients.[20] Richard P. Sloan of Columbia University, in contrast, told the New York Times that “there is no really good compelling evidence that there is a relationship between religious involvement and health.”[21] Debate continues over the validity of these findings, which do not necessarily prove a direct cause-and-effect relationship between religion and health. Mark Stibich claims there is a clear correlation but that the reason for it remains unclear.[22] A criticism of such placebo effects, as well as the advantage of religion giving a sense of meaning, is that it seems likely that less complex mechanisms than religious behavior could achieve such goals.[8] “
[en.wikipedia.org]

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skado 9 Jan 30
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17 comments

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0

I'll say this for you, Skado-- you copy and paste with the best.

2

Notice how Skado clammed up the minute rational people chimed in?

Yes. Will message you.

Imo, a severe and incurable of the Christian affliction of Post and Run is what @skado is affected by and utilising to its fullest extent.
It is also, in my opinion as a Psychologist a Primary Symptom of the latest disease to emerge as a result of the Internet/Web and inundation of social media, that disease being " Attention Whoring."

1

When you are afraid, be it of thunder, or Covid, you are compelled to seek someone,anyone, who can "explain", which helps ease your fears.
We can see right now how this fear is giving rise to what appears to be madness. (Ivermectin? Bleach? Piss?) And the power & money that those who purportedly have "the answers" accrue. Simple as that.

2

This is shit for idiots.

Imo, what else can be expected from such an idiot?

2

Is it just me, or does OP have the biggest, hardest, ragingest boner for this topic?

4

Yet more Wikipedia questionable research I see @skado.
Religious belief grew from the IGNORANCE in the very and still somewhat primitive minds of humans who could NOT explain where the sun went at night, what caused thunder and lightning, why a huge beast killed Mr. Ug before their spears made it drop dead and not Mr, Grug who was standing next to him, etc, etc.
Then along comes the 'shyster' of the tribe or clan, sees his/her opporuntity to get the 'easy life' and the BIG Pretence and Scam starts rolling.

7

This fits here

1

I recently watched a documentary on the ancient Maya civilizations (Nova). I thought that it was strange that even while isolated from Europe, Africa and Asia, they developed a religion that seems remarkably similar to the "western world". They even believed that their rulers were deities, much like the Egyptians. The civilizations collapsed, or transitioned, much like a lot do. The working class got tired of getting nothing back for their hard work and pretty much decided to do it their own way. The deity kings were no longer worth working for.

The ancient Egyptian priests were able to predict the annual flooding of the Nile by observing underground wells, thus they appeared god-like to the people.

@ASTRALMAX And supposedly, the Maya rulers were able to get it to rain, until they couldn't and that's what got them killed.

@MyTVC15 It would appear that they brought about their own downfall.
[science.nasa.gov]

@ASTRALMAX That is what has been concluded. The drought did not help either.

@ASTRALMAX No they use devices called Nileometers actually but that was NOT the in precincts of the Priesthood anyway, it one the main ANNUAL functions of the Governors of each rural region.

@ASTRALMAX I just now saw that you included a link. The documentary I saw did not mention the deforestation as the cause of the drought. They did show how they used evidence they found in stalagmites that there was a drought and they also found a narrative written in glyphs that talks about the drought and the wars that followed.

1

I can accept that religious behavior can be a social adaptation if the "comunity" holds it as a valuable characteristic AND teaches it to every individual that comes along. religion is not an instinctive behavior. if there is any shift in a religious adaptation occurs at a social level, not the individual level. Said again, perception of the supernatural is an imaginary adaptation not biological. No genetics are in play to create religious behavior only social conditioning.

The genetics that are in play are similar to the genetic capacity for language. No one is born speaking French - they must be taught French. But they are born with the genetic capacity for language, else no amount of teaching could make them speak.

No one is born Buddhist or Hindu, but we are all born with a genetic capacity for complex culture, else no amount of social conditioning could induce religious behavior. Generic culture-capacity develops into organized religion only when we need it to. That is to say, not until the invention of agriculture forced us to give up the nomadic life and settle into large, complex societies of interdependent strangers. So when social conditioning called, we had the genetic wherewithal to answer that call, unlike the Neanderthals and Denisovans apparently.

@skado but the genetics in play are not specifically designed for religious behavior, they just make religious behavior possible just like they make any more complex social stuff possible , money, law, morality, they make the conditioning possible. it's a social thing that's evolving as a result of social stuff, not an individuals code. the word evolution implies biological adaptations which is a rabbit hole. social development might be a better description for religious adaptation.

@skado true, just like language, religion is learned. no coding is there just especially for either one. it's the capacity to learn that has evolved not the capacity to grow curly hair when you choose to.

@hankster
“…the word evolution implies biological adaptations…”

It’s complicated.

From the
National Academy of Sciences:

Cultural evolutionary theory: How culture evolves and why it matters

[pnas.org]

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@skado this is great stuff. I'll holler in a few weeks.

1

Appeared early, yes. Evolved early?

Sexual behavior appeared earlier.

2

Scientists might generally agree but religion evolved out of fear. Fear of the unknown and fear itself bubbling up about "what happens to me."

Or trying to explain the unknown

3

LOVE THE RESEARCH . SCIENTISTS GENERALLY AGREE because of natural selection within themselves too. Their job depends upon academic agreement. Thank Darwin.

Religion did not evolve because of genetics but because possibly because of power grabbing and control of information.

4

There is no direct connection recognized by mainstream science, between genetically evolved traits and almost any aspect of modern religion. The genetic factors which favour religion are merely precursors, which may cause religion to happen.

As you say. "There are two schools of thought. One is that religion itself evolved due to natural selection and is an adaptation, in which case religion conferred some sort of evolutionary advantage. The other is that religious beliefs and behaviors, such as the concept of a protogod, may have emerged as by-products of other adaptive traits without initially being selected for because of their own benefits." It is a serious fault to quote two schools of thought, and then choose only the first largely discredited and minority one, and treat that as if it were the mainstream, which is exactly the opposite of the truth.

Genetic evolution is unable to eliminate the cost deficits of religion, simply because religion is a recently developed cultural phenomenon which has not had anything like enough time to register as a factor in natural selection. Because culture, when once the initial factors favouring its development are in place, develops far faster than genetic evolution can take place. The argument fails to see the great distance at which all modern religion exists, from early primitive religion whose existence may have overlapped ( though its of doubtful significance ) with the evolutionary time scale. Anyone who does not understand that is so far from understanding science at a most basic level, that they could hardly qualify to speak on scientific issues at all, there is a lot of bad pseudo science out there.

The genetic factors which led to the development of culture, and its benefits, have nothing to do with religion specifically, and religion is not a in any way a synonym for all of human culture. Nor is it a synonym for social solidarity, though it may be one cultural factor in achieving such on some occasions, yet it is it is becoming increasingly divorced from mainstream culture, and may have long since become a divisive factor in modern times, ( last ten thousand years or so. ) having exactly the opposite effect into the future.

To see religion as an evolved trait is to seriously misunderstand evolution, at a basic level. A thing not unknown even among scientist involved in the field. And certainly not the among fringe sciences, like anthropology on the edges of biology. Since evolutionary theory can be difficult and is often counter-intuitive for the human mind, and not all scientists in related fields are given a good grounding in evolutionary theory.

Human culture is almost completely flexible, and can easily be reinvented in many forms to fill our evolved needs. Most of us have many evolved traits which cause cultural phenomena, we like sensory overload for example, as long as we feel moderately safe. So we make cars which go very fast and drive them above the speed limits, but we do not have to drive fast cars, we could ride roller-coasters, go skydiving or skying, for the same thrill, fast cars are not an inevitable part of human culture. And nor is religion, as long as the evolved needs it fulfills can be met by other mean such as education, philosophy, law and science, which they easily can, it is redundant.

Thanks for that, modern hierarchical religion couldn't exist without the centralized populations that emerged with agriculture. I think what scientists generally agree on is that speculation without evidence is not good science.

Just apply the words 'science' or 'genetics' to whatever concept you want to promote and it gives the illusion that something is either based in science or is an object of scientific enquiry.

@ASTRALMAX Especially if you do not care about exact usages of words, including even "science" and "genetics". Which you may do, especially if you come from the background of religion, where it is acceptable to interpret anything to mean anything you wish, and never mind the confussion it may cause, because confussion is where the narcissim of religion thrives.

@Fernapple Its helps lend weight to your concept if you change the termini or ending of the word to give it a scientific ring. You could use words from ancient Greek or Latin and modify them.

@ASTRALMAX, @Buttercup There are a few tiny bits of periferal science, behind the so called genetics of religion. Such as a positive error bias, ( We are more likely to assume something is, than is not. ) maybe a instictive fear of snakes, which are major players in a lot of religions, and a tendency to neophobia, ( fear of the unknown ), etc. but not the massive mountain of so called proof that appologists and pseudo science builds on that molehill.

Genetic behaviorism deals, in by its very evolved nature, with big clunky crude issues, which are all the slow tick of evolution has time to deal with, not specifics like beliefs, evolution does not perfect it only moves towards it. Just as we have hands with fingers to use and make many tools, and do not have evolved bottle openers and skrew drivers on the ends of our arms, so we have instincts like neophobia, and not fear of gods or hell, neither of which are found in all religions anyway.

And the bottom line is, that if religion was genetically programmed, then there would be no atheists or agnostics, not even Buddist atheists believing in karma.

@ASTRALMAX Quite. You can always spot a phoney by the tails.

4

Religion evolved from human fear and ignorance. Like all memes religion mutates and succeeds because humans respond much more to fear than to reason, and organised religions know this and exploit this fear. You should focus on the way organised religions evolve. They all share the same characteristics and behaviour, despite cultural differences.

4

I think the innate need to “belong to the tribe” is the basis for it. That need probably evolved from the “safety in numbers” principle.

1

TLDRA! What peer reviewed evidence do you have? Don't tell me to look it up myself. You make the claim, back it up with evidence.

0

Religions are started by prophets as cults. Prophet dies and if his/ her teachings continue, it becomes a religion. A doctrine is developed around the teachings. As it continues rituals to mimic the prophet are developed which both shows devotion plus reinforces belief. This is imparted to the next generation through formal instruction aka indoctrination. Religion is identified with culture. A like minded group.
People find comfort in groups, in people with the same belief as them. Groups can be beneficial and mostly are but to become part of a group, you suppress your individuality to belong and conform.

Religion evolved as early as charismatic leaders did, the head of a group. If their bullshit was profound and they were admired, perhaps a religion developed on their passing. But once religions are well established, it is harder for new prophets to make inroads unless via force and coercion eg trade superior technology IF they convert and if not, kill them (Abrahamic religions anyway)

puff Level 8 Jan 30, 2022

Yes, it sounds counter intuitive, but religions are really founded by followers not by founders. A central figure preaches, but in a short period the followers create the theology and the structures of religion which may have any real connection to the person, if there was one, or the myth from which the figure in derived.

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