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24 6

Who of you would self-identify as nihilist?

Here's a fairly good definition:

Nihilism is a philosophical doctrine that considers that in the end everything is reduced to nothing, and therefore nothing makes sense. It rejects all religious, moral and gnoseological principles, often based on the belief that life is meaningless, that there is no deity since nature and the universe are indifferent to human beings, their values and suffering, that there is no teleological ultimate end or divine order, and that there is no absolute truth.

Is this doctrine logically flawed?

Thibaud70 7 Mar 2
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8

This is your life, not a rehearsal. Make the most of it!

At age 22 as a volunteer, I taught a blind teenage boy to swim. I set a metronome on each end of the pool to give him direction. We had fun.

"Where's Brian?" I asked in September. Brian was now navigating the high school with a cane. He only needed tutoring two hours per day. I can't help but think learning to swim increased his confidence.

A Democrat and atheist, I have a strong public service ethic. I was born a high energy optimist.

I got a Master of Public Administration degree because I get the greatest reward from doing work that helps people.

Volunteering as a college mentor since 2006 is highly rewarding. They are the first person in their family to go to college.

Hiking is my passion. I get tremendous joy from the beauty of nature.

So I have always been the opposite of a nihilist. Life is fun!

7

No…because I enjoy living my life here on this planet with the people I choose to have as friends, and love the beauty of nature with it’s infinite variety of flora, fauna & landscape, and find it and people everywhere pretty fascinating.

I’m a lifelong nonbeliever, but that doesn’t mean I think life has no meaning. My view, formed from my own upbringing in a freethinking family, is that we make our own choice how to conduct our lives within societal parameters, and it’s up to us to give whatever meaning to our lives we decide. I believe this is the only life we get, but far from feeling hopelessness I think that belief makes it more essential that we make it the best possible life we can, and enjoy the fellowship of kin and good friends and do no harm as far as possible to any lifeform or the environment. I think collectively we humans have harmed our environment to such an extent that future sustainability is in the balance, that is certainly something that makes me feel extremely sad, and I do fear for my grandchildren’s generation who will not look kindly on us for our carelessness. Of course the optimist in me hopes that we are not too late to save the planet from destruction and that the sciences being currently applied to halting and ultimately reversing the damage can work.

So all in all, I’d say I’m probably the complete opposite from being a nihilist….

@Marionville

Well said. I agree that it is up to us to create meaning in our lives.

In his wonderful book, Man's Search for Meaning, psychiatrist Victor Frankl wrote even in Nazi concentration camps people found meaning in their lives.

@LiterateHiker Thank you Kathleen…I know that you and I see things from a very similar perspective. Yes…it’s absolutely true that even in the bleakest of situations the human spirit can find some small spark or joy to focus on to give meaning to life and keep us from sinking into despair, and just giving up.

7

I could I suppose, but what would be the point

Because, like sardonicism, nihilism is it's own reward.

6

When i am gone, i am gone. In the meantime, what a waste of life to think like this!
Yes, nature is impartially uncaring to everything, so what?
I choose to not live in mommy's basement, cringing...never even wanted to.

6

I eschew labels.

6

"In the end..." In the end, the last of the stars will wink out, evaporate away, and the universe will be absolutely cold, empty, and silent. That's how things will be in a few trillion years. But that dead future, in my mind, has little relation to our present reality. Life can be full of meaning; it's up to us individually to make our meaning or discover it. I think helping others, struggling to improve things, makes enough meaning for most sane people.

The term "nihilist" is sometime used as a pejorative by Christians to describe atheists and agnostics (as if believing in an apocryphal sky daddy is the only way to find meaning in life).

To be clear, I do not identify myself as a nihilist.

5

I would yes. Or at least a "happy nihilist" or "post nihilist" . In so far as I have found that ironically, the abandonment of all belief in meaning, is the best route to meaning.

If you would like enlargement, here goes, I have put this up here before, but I think before your time.

Here for what they are worth, ( Not much.) are my views, which all end in a joke, very like Absurdism which I would perhaps call Appreciateism.
When we realize that there are no big, god given, purposes in life, demanding our obedience. And the many completely contradictory purposes, offered by the many different religions, prove that to be so. Then we can easily see, that wanting any big purpose at all, is merely a vanity and narcissism. The failings which are the weakness that all religions feed off. For if you build up the vanities of people, then they will, obey you, pay you, and praise you, for as long as you keep flattering and confirming those vanities, over and over again.
Yet atheists often say in reply to the theist's question. “What is the purpose of life, if there is no god ?” That, by being none religious, we are free to choose our own purposes. Though admittedly they must by definition be small personal ones, for a transcendent purpose is just another god, meaning that in the deepest sense, atheism, agnosticism and deism are inevitably, by their nature, mainly philosophies of humility.
Yet here for fun is the irony. Suppose for one second, hypothetically, for arguments sake, that there is a creator, an intelligence behind the universe, though one who has not revealed any purpose to us yet, perhaps a deist creator at most. Then what can we discern, if anything, is most likely to be pleasing to it, if pleasing it has any value at all ? Well after the usual if doubtful, givens, such as, be kind, the only thing I think that seems likely, is that we should appreciate its creation as much as possible, down to the smallest detail. Valuing and treasuring all that we are given. And what are we doing when we create our own small purposes, whether, we climb mountains, garden, paint pictures, entertain our pets, make a coffee for a friend or help in a charity shop, if not appreciating that creation, or nature, down to the smallest detail, and valuing it enough to care for it ? Practical environmentalism. Perhaps therefore being an atheist could after all, be the most pleasing of all things to the hypothetical creator.

Now forget the hypothetical creator, since it has now done its job, and what are you left with ? That the small things are the biggest things there are, because they demand the greatest appreciation of you, and it is when you turn your back on the idea of great purpose that you come nearest to your greatest purpose. And when you forget god that you are most likely to please god. So you see that in the end, my deepest thoughts lead to an ironic joke. Nice joke perhaps ? Yes, but I was also never more serious.
And is this my original philosophy ? No, I don't think so, for at the very least the Greek philosopher Epicurus more than twenty centuries ago wrote. “Bring me a pot of cheese and I will feast.” And. “Don't over think it.” While Albert Camus invented Absurdism, in the last century, which as far as I can see, is in all main points little different from Epicurus, perhaps philosophy has just gone full circle.

OK, we agree about the creator (or his absence), and the absence of a god-given absolute purpose of life. But what about values? In our Western societies, the supreme, even absolute (= non negotiable) value is human dignity. That's for example the reason why something like legal slavery or legal torture are impossible in France or the UK. A true nihilist would have to do without human dignity as legal foundation. Are you ready for that? Can all values a society is built on reduced to private/ subjective opinions and preferences?

@Thibaud70 There are many sources of morality which do not need to be derived from an supreme outside purpose.
For example, simple selfishly motivated logic.

"Do I want to be happy, safe, content and enjoy human dignity ?" A. "Yes." "Am I more likely to be those things, if I live in a world where happy, safe, dignified and content, is the general rule for most people ?" A. "Yes" " Then is it worth my while to make some investment in everyone else ?" Of course.

Plus the thought that even if happy and prosperous now, I may one day be at the bottom of the social pile, as may anyone. And therefore it is better for all, if the bottom of the pile is not too bad a place to be.

The third reason, is simple animal instinct. We are social animals, and therefore things, including others, matter to us. Indeed all the moral systems in the world would not exist unless they were driven by some animal instinct and emotion, since reason alone with nothing to drive it, or aim for, produces nothing. Nobody started cooking because scientific evidence, or religious belief, made them think it made food healthier, or even showed them why they should value health at all. Nobody would have invented morality without some motivation, and if that does not come from god or some supernatural origin, then it must be hard wired into us, even though the outputs of that hard wiring may vary greatly between cultures.

It will probably happen that under the effect of civilization those instincts will decline, since they were made to help us survive in family groups on the plains of Africa, and we no longer need them. In a civil world, where technology can provide our needs and safety, evolution favours the selfish and the cheat. And it is probable that our ironically named "humane" instincts, like those of empathy etc. have already declined a lot, so that we are morally degenerate animals, fast falling below the social mammals in the caring instincts. But happily it will, because evolution is slow, probably take many thousands of year for them to erode completely, so we may enjoy the benefits of them for a long while yet.

It is true that none of these will get you to a Christian morality, of absolute altruism. Which many people confuse with morality, being because they are indoctrinated to think of moral, and Christian as synonyms. But I find Christian morality, to be deviant, and unhealthy anyway, even if only because I despise absolutes, end time values, and I think that a complete lack of self care, even in favour of others is unhealthy for society.

@Gwendolyn2018 You may be correct, but I have been debating and commenting with him for a while now, and I think that he is genuinely interested in our conversation here, and is an agnostic. He only joined a short while ago, and is I think really interested in finding out about the community, so that could be why he is asking about core ideas..

I know that Skado confessed that, his main intent was to gather information for a book for Christians, but we would be unluck to get two.

@Gwendolyn2018 It seems you are probably right about him, since he seems to have disappeared. Though he did have a run in with another member, which was quite nasty, and that may simply have scarred him off being new here. Which is sad, because I at least was enjoying his company.

I have never really believed in pure altruism anyway, neither that it exists, or that it would be a good thing if it did. It only really exists in the Christian/Islamic moral systems, where it seems to exist in order to set up impossible demands on people, so that they are bound to fail. Which then means that they have to resort to the church, which controls a monopoly on moral forgiveness. Setting people up to fail with fake beliefs in what is required of them, is perhaps the nastiest of all religions crimes. Though even with Christians the idea often fails, so that instead of going to the church in search of forgiveness, they find way to distort and manipulate the moral system to mean anything they want, so that the Christian religion in the end trains its people either to guilty and depression, or trains them and accustoms them to extreme dishonesty. Either way it destroys their humanity.

I like this may post it. Thank you for the inspiration.

@Gwendolyn2018 Yes altruism is limited and it is good that it is. Which is why Christianity loves to ask for unlimited altruism, thereby setting people up to fail.

5

Taken to extremes nihilism might mean you wanted to destroy things, or conventional things. I see the meaning that life has no purpose but it is up to us to give our lives a purpose.

4

Meaningless, maybe. We are here and then we are not. But in the meantime we can have a lot of fun.

@Gwendolyn2018 yup. Be happy, try to make others happy and leave it in better shape than it was.

@Gwendolyn2018 You seem cool. Shame we can’t message each other 😂

@antman Good luck with that.😂

4

i might be just a little bit too pessimistic to qualify as a nihilist.

4

I do not use labels to identify anybody, much less me.

4

No!

3

Only a religious jackass would assume that the lack of a god would make life meaningless...

3

Probably only the Nihilists!

3

To self identify as a nihilist is to confute the philosophy.

3

It is merely one philosophical perspective and the product of excessive thinking about life. Life is a dynamic process.

Albert Camus said that there is only one serious philosophical question, suicide. However, despite the apparent absurdities of life as he put it; he chose life until his tragic death in a car accident in the 4th January 1960.

I love me some Camus. The Sisyphus rock-rolling uphill cycle metaphor rocks (pun-intended). The Stranger is a deep book for being so short. I was impressed by how Camus stood his ground in conflict with Sartre and French left over revelations of Stalinist excesses. Sad he died so early. He did have a thing for the ladies though…

He showed first hand difficulties in striking an identity as Pied-Noir trying to bridge between Algeria and French colonialism.

2

I think that being agnostic or atheistic makes our one life and those around us more precious and meaningful.

2

Nihilist has an extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.

I was wonder if nihilist exist. A life with no purpose or ethics is very hard to imagine for me. Sure religion and politics are like mosquitoes. I redesign my life where they don't bug me so much, unlike most people.

That's a rather extreme definition of nihilism. A more common one is that there are no objective or supreme values in morality, or in political / social life.
But it is true that there is no definition all philosophers could agree on

2

No. If for no other reason than that I think morality is very important, esp. since we only go around once in life on this rock, so living morally is extremely important.

A nihilist would say : That's fine. Keep your morality, but you have to admit that your ethical norms and values are just subjective. There is nothing ("nihil" ) your values are built on, they are your preferences, in other parts of the world they have different preferences, but there is no rock a true moral order can be built on

2

That's a tough one. I am a major skeptic, and considering that no-matter how much success or notoriety we have during our brief stay on the planet, we don't get a second chance, I can understand why nothing has meaning, but, at the same time, just as we cannot prove the existence of "god" neither can we disprove it. Having said that, objectively, I can see no point to any of this, but I don't think I could be described as a Nihilist.

It does make for a good sophist conversation, however. Sort of as much meaning as all of those angels dancing on the head of pins.😏 Thiebaud did get one hell of a thread going though, even though it has no meaning, That's truly "Much Ado about Nothing" Maybe it coud all be developed into a play to rival "Godot" in inanity!

2

I don’t subscribe to nihilism. I can see their point, but as with post-Nietzschean post-structuralism it gets way overdone. Life is ridiculous or absurd, but one can seek to construct meanings from the multiple shards or fragments given. Why not?

The pomos have a point about overarching grand narratives, but theirs becomes one too, as Critical Theorist Jurgen Habermas aptly pointed out as performative contradiction. Other Critical Theorists have gone beyond Habermas, such as Seyla Benhabib and Douglas Kellner. Given Kellner strives to find meanings in pop culture texts such as movies, I fail to see the nihilism. The original Critical Theorists were pessimists for sure, but not Habermas and later generation thinkers. Pessimism and nihilism are differently oriented.

2

While Taoism ultimately leads us to conclude that there is no divine order, or abso truth (that is knowable), it does not conclude that any behavior is acceptable. There are rules but breaking them does not lead to an ultimate judgment about you so the rules are merely agreements. This is why it's preferable to live in communities of people who agree to basic tenets of that community. Diversity may be great for many reasons but community cohesion is not proving to be one of them.

0

Without reading all the comments posted so far in case there's a duplication, of course the doctrine is legally flawed because of belief in nothing is still a belief. In answer to the first question no I wouldn't identify as a nihilist because I have morals.

lerlo Level 8 Mar 3, 2023

Nihilists do not belief in nothing, as if "nothing" was a "thing".

@Thibaud70 ni·hil·ist
/ˈnīələst,ˈnēələst/
noun
a person who believes that life is meaningless.
Last I checked meaningless is defined as means nothing. So they believe in nothing but it's still a belief or they couldn't believe it

@lerlo But this is different than what you originally stated.
Your first claim:
"the doctrine is legally flawed because of belief in nothing is still a belief"
Which most atheists and agnostics recognize is a nonsensical argument that classically gets countered with "then not collecting stamps is a hobby."
And your second claim:
"a person who believes that life is meaningless"

No beliefs and meaningless are two completely different things. Agree with yourself on what the definition of nihilism is first, please.

@ChestRockfield nice try but I didn't contradict myself. And I don't really care what atheists and agnostics believe because that "classic" counter is bullshit. Incredibly some people's hobby is doing nothing. The word meaningless means no meaning. And if no meaning and no beliefs are not the same to you I can't help you.

0

Nothing plus nothing is nothing unless you use this Text box to state nothing is actually something when you explain nothing to anyone else!!!

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