Fitra ?!

@Punkrockgirl77 Agreed, but while the purpose, timing and intent may be different they are still the same thing, they are both still the arbitrary chopping up children's body parts just because it's tradition.

Arrogant & ignorant. A winning combination...

"Here's what I find insulting. Comparing this to female genital mutilation "
Well @crazycurlz, I find it insulting that you don't understand that cutting off part of a babies body is mutilation. In fact I find it quite disturbing.

Of course I am one of those wackos that thinks cutting off the tails of animals and chopping off part of their ears to make them more aesthetically pleasing to humans is also barbaric.

But you are welcome to search google for all the confirmation you want and since that is all you are looking for I am sure you will find plenty of it.

But make no mistake, cutting off part of a babies penis is mutilation and in the United States as in most places in the world there is 100% zero need for it and I can't think of a place on earth that there is a need for it as our species did without it just fine until the old testament god came along.

The timing and intent may be different than fgm, but it’s still chopping off body parts, without consent.

and yet, you responded...

@crazycurlz Actually telling someone that their comments are not worth responding to isn't a response so much as it is notification.

When and if I have a daughter she will do all piercings she wants by herself. We do not tattoo our kids why should I force her with a mark without her approval?

@Humanistheathen thanks! While I won't be making my final decision any time soon and at this moment this post is for my hypothetical children lol, I will do my best to make an update here if that day comes. As of right now, I am leaning towards not getting them circumcised. Thanks for the feedback!!

No, not as a baby, we let her decide when she was about 12/14 or there abouts. These should always be personal decisions. I got my daughter a tattoo for her 21st birthday, she now has about 30, but her body/her choice.

My wife did when our daughter was like 6 months old, didn't ask me of course but I don't suppose I would have rejected the idea.
Of course poking a tiny hole is a bit different than cutting something off.

@ThomasLevi not according to some natural practioners who see pircing as damaging to accupunture points particularly in the ear lobes.

@FrayedBear I knew I should have had her consult an acupuncturist first before having needles stuck into body parts

@ThomasLevi It's not the passage through the scrotum but ....! Hehehe

Oh, Kassandra, you are BAD!

seems you're catching on very well.

@Lukian @Gareth I don't mean to lower myself to that level, but I just want to make it clear if you're going to call out people, and you cannot just give your opinion once and stop forcing your opinions down others' throats - it will be noticed.

Kassandra, I wish you well on your adoption, all children deserve a loving home. When you open up a discussion on a hot topic like circumcision, that is what you should expect: discussion, even if it becomes heated.

Ha! So funny it is you are....!

@crazycurlz thank you for the well wishes. And I love heated discussions - that is not the issue here though. Most commenters were very pleasant in their conversation- even when they disagreed. No one else commented on MULTIPLE other comments trying to argue and shove their opinions down one another's throats. You do realize that NO ONE is going to listen to you or think you have any credibility when you do that right? It's just the wrong way to approach a debate. Look up some pointers, come back, and try again. You might have better luck and won't have to coerce people then.

@Kassandra I agree. Throwing out accusations of ignorance, bias and cloaked anti-semitism is not the way to go in this community. I don't need that in my daily feed and rather than get sucked into responding I will eventually block the person, as I've done in this case.

@Gareth great idea!

Yawn.

Have you actually said who funded the research and for what purpose? Further more is it supported independently?
Attn: @GoldenDoll, @Simon1, @BagelPants, @Hihi, @OroLee

The studies quoted on that one site are all over 40 years old and not even done on a large scale . You only quote from this one site which is pro- circumcision which is cognitive dissonance at its finest !!!!

@Simon1 - I think I love you! Got her right in the short & crazycurlies.

Maybe we should remove our children's teeth, you know, to prevent future tooth decay, or the need for braces, or yellowing.

Reading through that again how the hell does someone die from not having the top of his dick cut off that's just made up rubbish. Also claiming it protects someone from hiv ridiculous an errect penis is exactly the same whether it's circumsised or not . Whatever Dr claims otherwise needs his license revoked !!!

@Simon1 He's a reputable doctor. You lack understanding about the differences between evidence-based research v opinion pieces.

@crazycurlz he may be a reputable Dr in cardiovascular work but that doesn't stop him misleading others in other fields

@Simon1 And @crazycurlz.
Here is what Morris's head of department at Sydney university had to say about the paper that you reference:
"Morris believes that there is "'overwhelming' evidence to support male circumcision," and that although he does not believe that all males should undergo the procedure, Morris feels it should be in the same category as immunization.[5] He has criticised the circumcision policy[6] of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians, which he says is "not evidence-based and should be retracted,"[7] however his comments were rejected by the RACP. Morris has criticized anti-circumcision activists for what he says is the "cult-like devotion" they exhibit to their cause.[8] Morris wrote the 1999 book In Favour of Circumcision; Basil Donovan, Director of the Sydney Sexual Health Centre and a Clinical Professor in the School of Public Health and Community Medicine at the same university at which Morris was employed, the University of Sydney, criticised the book as "dangerous" and "a serious disservice to parents."[9] Other experts are also forthright in their criticism of Morris over circumcision."

Several things come to mind.. if you are a believer then god made an error.. oops.. I forgot one thing.. Secondly there is no medical reason. I was born this way.. Glad Mom made the right decision.

You can call others ignorant all you like but when us men have the evidence in our very hands that it does do nerve damage , it does cause psychological damage and when unnecessary surgery is done on someone without permission it is abuse !! As for it protecting from urinary infections ive had them whilst younger so thats a lie . Protection from hiv you are barking mad !

I think that going around calling people you disagree with "ignorant" merely backfires on the author. I was circumcised, Fortunately no harm has come of it, but in general I'd liked to be asked before having someone take a knife to me. It's a pointless ritual, in spite of attempts to rationalise it. You're right in implying I have an agenda though - respect, reason and the rights of the individual. I'm guessing that your own agenda is that either you or people you are close to have imposed circumcision on their own babies and you are desperate to defend the practice for that reason. I can't think of why else you are being so rude to people on this subject.
[Edit] Reading your subsequent posts, I see this is indeed the case.

Those "very keen observers in ancient times" - oh yeah. The ones who invented religion to explain what they couldn't understand. And would probably have burned you & I at the stake for having an opinion which wasn't theirs. They'd be the same ones who decided the foreskin was an evolutionary mistake. I despair at your pseudo-logic. Go on, make up some more fairy stories for us please.

@GoldenDoll This is unsurprising. Both of you presented with credible sources continue to cling to your ignorance. Ignorance is simply the lack of knowledge. At least the two of you are consistent.

@crazycurlz Have you ever even seen a girl with her clitoris cut off? I have. Your ignorance is stupefying. Your 'knowledge' is non existent.

There's nothing aesthetically displeasing about an uncircumcised penis.

Hanging was also legal until recently in many countries. China and USA remain the leading employers of the death penalty. One probably for body parts, one probably for religious reasons.

My son is autistic, too (aspergers), uncircumcised, and has never had any problems.

its' not like female genital mutilation. it's circumcision.

@crazycurlz it’s male genital mutilation.
Just because it’s the norm doesn’t make it ok

@crazycurlz unnecessary surgery is mutilation

@BagelPants and @Simon1 you can say it as much as you want to. Your alternative facts are just that. Hope you'll grow a little and reconsider your sources.

There is a limit on dildos in Texas?!?!?? ??

Thank you for your comment.

@crazycurlz and what is mutilation?

@crazycurlz I think @BagelPants and @Simon1 are in a more informed position than you since htey speak from personal experience. Never had a problem with my four boys. If it aint broke.....don't fix it. Besides this, anyone who think this doesn't hurt a newborn babe is out of their mind. Let your children decide for themselves about what surgery, piercings, tattoos they want when they are of age

@crazycurlz "its' not like female genital mutilation. it's circumcision."
If your parents cut off part of your ear or your nose it's mutilation, giving it a name does not change what it is. In todays society it is no different than what we do to dogs to give them the appearance we've grown accustom to.
Let the man decide what he wants cut off, not his parents.
And yes, it is exactly like female genital mutilation, i't intention was to keep the kids from masturbating.

And did you know that in Jewish tradition a Moyal, who is not a doctor, does the bird and uses his mouth the clean the wound, And I say wound because cutting of part of a penis is inflicting a wound. And many of these religious men have spread venereal disease to the babies by following this practice.

It is an archaic practice and doing it to babies is wrong.
And if you want to make the argument that it helps prevent sexually transmitted diseases, I don't think too many babies are fucking anyone yet. They have their whole life to cut off a piece of their penis for health reasons.

@ThomasLevi again, opinion. I am not arguing about STDs, haven't mentioned that. It's Mohel and not Moyal and where the hell you come up with your crap about cleaning the wound with his mouth is just disgusting alternative facts.

@crazycurlz OK TRump, here is your alternative fact - [abcnews.go.com]

Because obviously you have all the facts and are right about everything.
By the way, religion is disgusting and so is cutting off part of a babies penis, even if you think it's for their own good, because it's not.

@crazycurlz "Your alternative facts"

Welcome to Trumps Merica where reality can be one sided.

Well someone is right, and she just knows it! She's also here to inform the ignorant which is, apparantly, anyone who does not agree with her. She's most likely better informed on other subjects, too, but, then again, I'm probably ignorant anyway so, don't listen to me. Keep calm, and carry on!

And there I was taught that Texas did and had everything biggest and best?
LMAO ROFL

Bullshit. Mother Nature screws up all the time. We have medical procedures for removing almost all failed body parts including genital reproductive organs (the uterus and ovaries with hysterectomy- major surgery, gall bladder and other excess folds with weight reduction surgeries). Believing that a higher being (Mother Nature) is omnipotent and omniscient and always right...I'd say THAT is from religious thought.

@crazycurlz yes we have medical procedures for removing FAILED body parts. Foreskin hasn’t failed a day old infant.

I'm sorry that your post attracted such an abusive response.

@Marcie1974 then you miss the point.

@crazycurlz you have a point?

No no no. The clitoris is the equivalent of the whole penis - the pleasure organ.

From what I understand a man will lose some feeling whilst a woman will lose all feeling .

huge difference.

@Hihi. It’s same as male vs rape it’s not the same thing. /s

As a woman, you would be unable to have an orgasm. With a man, removing foreskin does not remove the ability to have an orgasm. The sexual 'release' for men and women being so different is the reason for the terms to be different, i believe. I'm not a doctor, though.

there's so much ignorance in the comparison, I don't even know where to start. you do a real disservice to victims of femal genital mutilation in not recognizing the horror they go through: 1. it's not a procedure, there is no process to it, nothing to prevent infection or loss of life 2. generally it's considered an act of violence: a woman is suspected of or has perpetrated a cultural sex crime 3. it both mutilates and removes sensation and organs vital for function and enjoyment. my god, if you're going to make this kind of leap...know what your discussing.

@crazycurlz Some people might say that calling my son autistic would be doing a disservice to severely autistic people. There is a HUGE difference between him and someone who rocks back and forth completely dissociated with the world. But he is still autistic.

There is a history of doing this to boys with no anesthesia. Cutting is cutting.

@Hihi hmmm... autism is a spectrum. Not sure how that relates to this discussion.

@Simon1 not totally true Simon. She still has her G spot and pelvic floor muscles to say nothing of the skin between vagina entrance and anus together with her anus. I have trained women to have orgasm simply from having their nose licked. I have never attempted it with someone who has never experienced orgasm or suffers from the trauma of rape or female genital mutilation.

medical professionals don't use the terms barbaric, or torturous to describe this procedure. you're giving an opinion

@crazycurlz labotimis were never described as barbaric or the use of leeches for headaches they are now times change !!

@Simon1 bless you for the superficial, but enthusiastic effort you put into defending your position. your brain wasn't born with an encyclopedia (neither was mine)...it's okay to look to other sources for information.

@crazycurlz But I believe it was a medical opinion by a medical professional, regardless of what you believe, but thanks for offering YOUR opinion.

@crazycurlz you I suggest are not talking to the right doctors. Of course I doubt that working in a Jewish hospital that you would encounter any right minded or unbiased doctors would you?

It's perfectly fine to make decisions for yourself and your family. I can respect that. But, the leaps you make, comparing it to female genital mutilation, for instance, are inexcusable.

@crazycurlz I don't want to be demeaning, but you remind me of a Christian.

@Kassandra this is a pretty important topic and requires discussion even if it becomes heated. I understand that by calling me a 'Christian' you think you are offending me, but, I have many Christian friends I admire and respect.

Just remembered and must add that I did have my son circumcised, and this was 58 years ago, a decision I now greatly regret.

it started as a means to prevent infection, much as what is happening in Africa today. Then it became tradition.

@crazycurlz you keep refering to africa who also belive that condoms cause aids due to the misinformation given to them by the catnolics and now thy have the highest infection of aids !!!

@crazycurlz
Srry, it started with the Egyptians then the Hebrews. Unless you are talking about modern society, and yes that is the reason they propagate.

@Simon1 I think by now I am beginning to feel sorry for you.

The things is.. it would not be more unpleasant as an adult.. an adult would just be able to tell you how unpleasant it was with more gusto and panache.

@KC_TheOne giving birth is unpleasant as well. As is any surgery. I think they’d survive.

But not wish so much that they would actually have it done?

@Gareth Good question. I had a vasectomy, and hated it. It was painful and weird because I was awake and could watch. Felt the tugging and snipping. It was kind of horrifying. I can feel the lumps and it occasionally causes me pain to this day. If I wasn’t circumcised when I was a baby I definitely would not do it now. Not that it would be painful necessarily, as they claim it isn’t, but just thinking about it now doesn’t work for me. That’s why I am glad I had it done and probably the same reason one might wish they had it done early on.

I’m sure there are lots of disfigured people for instance, that would like to look differently, but choose not to go under the knife just for psychological fear alone, but not necessarily that it will be painful. So when it’s just a matter of cosmetics, you have to weigh out the pros and cons. Money may also be an issue.

@Gareth Yeah, I believe our health care covered circumcision here in Canada before, but now treats as a cosmetic surgery that you have to pay for yourself.

@nastynifty I am uncircumcised and I had a vasectomy. The latter was decidedly NOT painful. Perhaps your doctor wasn't up to much.
Most of Europe, except for areas with Jewish or Muslim communities, does not go in for circumcision. Perhaps a decent study should compare Europeans against Americans in this regard.

@Petter Apparently Canada doesn’t circumcise for free anymore and if you want it done it is around $300 Canadian dollars. I’m absolutely aware that a vasectomy isn’t supposed to hurt, but mine did and I know another person who went through a similar experience as me. To be fair, apparently my surgeon was known to be a bit of a butcher and was actually fired due to his record, but that means it isn’t always painless regardless of what they say..perhaps a good reason to get it done at birth if it’s to be done at all.

That was reasoning also. The first time I saw an uncircumcised penis I actually said. "Eww, what's wrong with it?"

Totally killed the mood.

@PhoebeCat and I feel just the opposite. As in all things, it's okay to have differences.

@crazycurlz you're free to prefer circumcised penises (EDIT: among your own sex partners).

That doesn't mean you should encourage other parents to cut any part of their boys' penises off, without their consent, absent medical necessity.

Seriously? A little about adam conover, wiki: '...describe himself as "the only member of the family without a Ph.D."[5] In 2000, he graduated from Shoreham-Wading River High School, where he first became interested in the performing arts.[6] He then attended Bard College, where, in 2002, he became an active member of the sketch comedy group Olde English.[7] In 2004,[8] he earned a Bachelor's degree in philosophy from Bard College.[3]'

@OroLee it sounded like she was going to say something attacking him, but then just mentioned his schooling. I'm confused. Why is his training important? He is part of a production and, independent of that, the validity of is argument seems intact. Why does information about him in particular have relevance?

Having you penis look like your fathers penis makes about as much sense and forcing your son to get the same haircut and wear the same cloths all his life. Except for the fact that hopefully the majority of people will not see both penises so really the "look" the same argument is pretty silly. I don't really remember seeing my fathers penis, I'm sure I have and I know he is circumcised but I don't know it from seeing it.

Well that's the most ridiculous reason I've heard so far. What if you son doesn't want to look the same as you???

@Storybook you have a penis?

@Storybook - do you have a penis?

@Storybook, @GoldenDoll - do you have a penis? And you have as much right to judge as a man has to judge a woman about her body?

@ThomasLevi - it was a conscious decision based upon my past medical history and that isn’t rediculous. The nice thing about choices and decisions and opinions - everyone has the right to make them.

@Storybook - I don’t get offended on social media, or towards to many things in the real world for that matter. I choose not to let people’s opinions offend me; only use it as input for decision making if I respect that individual and ask for their opinion on the matter.

@CalvinJoe Having a circumcision because an infection or even if you think it will prevent something is perfectly rational. Having one because you want your penis to look like your fathers I hope you can understand sound a bit weird.
Now most fathers will have their baby boys get circumcised for that reason but if he had decided at 5 or 6 to take you for a circumcision so your penis would look like his, that would be weird. IMO of course.

I can't believe you said that. And twice. It's still ridiculous.

@GoldenDoll hahaha