Lol thanks

I love Penn and Teller...great comedians. Please don't tell me they are your reference for all things medical

@crazycurlz And what are your terms of reference for all things medical? As you seem to have some of it wrong....

@crazycurlz No. My references for ALL things medical are doctors and other medical professionals. Just like the ones Penn & Teller referenced in this (and all of the other) episodes.

@GoldenDoll no I don't have it wrong. I think you may be motivated by prejudice. There is no comparison between circumcision and female genital mutilation. And there is no way to convince you of that.

@crazycurlz You have no idea what you're talking about. My stepdaughter was an FGM victim. My son was circumcised by his nigerian father. Please don't talk to me about prejudice. You have your wires crossed

Thank you. I will check it out.

@crazycurlz @Kassandra Both mutilations. Both unnecessary. Both performed without the adult consent of the mutilated. Both cripple for life. Both result in psychological damage. Both reveal the sickness of the guardians authorizing the action.

Thanks for a considered response. Very refreshing after a lot of other angry & entitled replies.

@GoldenDoll , very nice and refreshing reply to you as well. Thanks to all who responded decently.

No, it is not mutilation. Lumping this in with female genital mutilation, an issue that really needs our energy and attention is just ignorance.

@crazycurlz Mutilation
Mutilation or maiming is cutting off or injury to a body part of a person so that the part of the body is permanently damaged, detached or disfigured. Wikipedia
You're the one who's lumping btw.

@crazycurlz Cognitive dissonance?

@crazycurlz Requires your Judeo/Xtian attention because of your hatred of Muslims and their faith?
In many countries female mutilation of the genitals is a criminal act. That equality did not prevail to result in the criminalisation of male circumcision is thanks to the lobbying of the Jews.

Thank you for a calm & coherent response.

Liked your comment. I am female and my brother was circumcised. I could have written your comments, weighing out the pros and cons but I arrived at a different conclusion.

@crazycurlz Well, that is one of the reasons it is still so prevalent, assuming you are for it, people still see a value in it. Is that the different conclusions you came to?
I look at it more like the reasons people dock the tails or crop the ears of some dog breeds, at least in the US, it has become more an aesthetic issue.

@ThomasLevi I actually disagree but headed out and will have to comment another time.

@crazycurlz No time like the present.

On sexual pleasure. You unfortunately can never know because you have been deprived just as a clitoradectomy of a woman deprives her of the sensation of clitoral pleasure. There are no parental rights. All rights reside in the child.

@crazycurlz Often those of cast iron opinion are unable to accept that their belief is not in iron but crumbling sand.

I hope to raise my children the same. Thank you for your insight.

yes, historically, there likely was a medical reason for doing it and now some cultures do it ritualistically.

@crazycurlz Evidence did not exist then nor does it now.

I read the post again and realized its for parents,but I am not one. I am still going to leave the comment as my thoughts are shared by a billion or so in my country!

I recently read that in fact the foreskin produces product that prevents hiv/aids infection. And as you you say the majority of problems arising are due to lack of hygiene.
The other aspect that used to cause horrendous problem was the garrotting of the penis through infection by candidiasis (thrush) causing the skin to lose its elasticity and start to shrink around the head in a tight band. Nowadays the one shot tablet gets rid of it in the blood and quickly returns everything to normal. Occassionally 2 are needed.

homicide is something that happens to humans. human tissue and non viable cells are not Human(note the capitalization) dispite being human tissue.

False equivalency. Also, Bodily autonomy is so inviolable as to forbid the harvesting of organs to save lives without consent, because another life does not have more value then your ability to own your own self.

You have failed sir.

@dellik nice response, deilik.

'nature hasn't done such a bad job with our species...' man, silver, what a statement. Politics aside for the moment, I assume you're referring to anatomy and physiology? I have a lot of respect for Mother Nature but, our systems are not perfection. For instance, I don't have a single female friend that's had an easy time of every stage/transitioning with the womens reproductive system.
To place circumcision in the same category as female genital mutilation is a sign of ignorance. Female genital mutilation is generally the removal or mutilation of female genitalia to punish or prevent the woman from having sex or from enjoying it. Female genital mutilation is just that, may be committed by male or female family members and typically not completed surgically but rather out of acts of violence. Circumcision is ritualistic removal of the foreskin of the penis, generally done by someone who's trained. Loss of the foreskin doesn't diminish feeling or manhood in the cultures that do this. In addition, do you have any idea about excess fold on the body? I'm a nurse. The things that develop in folds can be pretty awesome...little creatures that live off the flesh. I don't know the history of circumcision but I'd imagine when the Egyptians and then the Jews and then some Arab groups began the practice, there were health reasons associated with it.

@dellik All I have 'failed' to do is communicate with you. Given the barriers evident by your response, I will continue to fail.

After you familiarize with a dictionary, learn basic biology and human physiology and acquire the ability to think functionally we have no 'common ground' upon which to compare perspectives.

@crazycurlz O.K. Meshg, As usual, the erroneous notions are flying like confetti and one can hardly answer all of them. As suggested to dellik, I urge you to try developing the ability to think functionally. It begins with 'seeing' functionally and given the mechanistic way 'knowledge' is presented the task is difficult. Most of what I comment is functionally rooted. Focus on and naming of means and mechanism do not refute function but merely distract from it.

I like the qualification you made of 'anatomy and physiology' because that is exactly what I meant. Our 'systems' (bodily) are systems within a hierarchy of systems; many of which are human (read male) contrived, designed and imposed. As products of systems that are secondary and in varying degrees pathogenic, that we don't function well on many physical, emotional and psychological levels should not be surprising.

Your attempts to 'educate' me about mechanistically differing means and names for the same functional phenomena were unnecessary. I fully understood what you presented and more, before the exercise. It doesn't change function in any other way than degrees.

It matters not why, to what degree of barbarity, what kind of religious notions contribute to it, who performs it; be they Ancient Egyptians or ancient anybodies; be they contemporary mohel's infecting infants with genital herpes; be they physicians in sterile hospital environments or ignorant Islamic extremists in squalid huts with sharpened spoons. Mutilation of the genitalia of children for religious or any other crazy notion is still genital mutilation.

I especially enjoyed the observation: "Loss of the foreskin doesn't diminish feeling or manhood in the cultures that do this." The humor I see in it (functionally) relates to the humor women find in males pontificating on how this or that practice in our 'culture' doesn't diminish femininity. That you are a nurse gives you no superior platform from which to propagate notions about things of questionable or arguable validity. I'm no stranger to science or life sciences and don't feel the need to air 'credentials'. They have little to do with whether something is so. But actual knowledge does. My daughter has been a nurse for 27 years and we have many stimulating discussions and without mutuality of knowledge they wouldn't even happen.

What I find to be 'pretty awesome' is presumptuousness. It brings to mind a favorite Neitche -ism...

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Music IS functionality. Instruments are mechanism.

@Silver1wun you are right, there is no common ground when you chose to accept fundamentally wrong information, and portray it as fact. Your failure to grasp basic biology and then blame shift is laughable at best, and should be humiliating, but I doubt you are self aware enough for that to be possible.

@dellik In basic biology one learms that there are differences between cells, "tissue", organs, systems and organisms.

Check any cell you like in an internally or extermally gestating infant, or for that matter, from a dying 90 year-old and the dna will confirm the source to have been an organism; in this case a human organism.

@Silver1wun thanks for proving my point, appreciate it =D

@crazycurlz your attempt to somehow make out that female circumcision is a "worse crime" than male circumcision is derisable. Have you got a foreskin? Have you experienced the degree of pleasure obtained with a sensitive foreskin compared to circumcised?
No. Nor do I see validation of such claim from authoritive sources.
Neither can I ever know and compare pre and post female circumcision pleasures. I know however that the sensitivity of the vagina, the G spot and the pelvic floor muscles are not affected.
You mention things breeding in body parts covered by flaps of skin. Yes there are wonderous things growing between the chest skin and underskin of women with oversized pendulous breasts. I don't hear you advocating that mastectomies be carried out on infant girls to ensure that this can never happen. The interesting reality is what is actually produced under the man's foreskin and what it is produced for. I can assure that in nearly 70 years of life the only problem that I have encountered has been recently and that was due to the medical profession and side effect of a drug prescribed by them that was claimed necessary.
As for health issues in ancient Arab and Jewish days I'm sure that lack of water and cleanliness allied to sexual satisfaction being safely derived from little boy's anuses probably did result in horrendous infection in the women also entered.

@dellik When you contribute something worthwhile please draw my attention to it. In the meantime please explain how someone who considers bullying abhorrent and "no tolerance for bullies" can say one word in defense of what is the greatest betrayal and act of bullying perpetrated on a man through being circumcised when most in need of protection?

@FrayedBear 1; I'll give you a dollar if you can show me anywhere I said anything in support of circumcision.
and 2; What on earth makes you think I give half a shit if you think my statements are 'worthwhile'

The bully here, is clearly the ancient inbreed that thinks his feelings are more important then bodily autonomy.

@FrayedBear and dear god, after reading your response to Crazycurls I see you are actually just a piece of shit racist, so I honestly don't give a single flying fuck what you think. Please wander off into the woods and die you fucking dinosaur.

@dellik you obviously understand english differently to me. I see that you are a god botherer inciting the word in your response. How do you draw this wonderfully "grasp at the last straw" ad hominem to prove your correctness?
I suspect that your response will keep me laughing for most of the day. Incidentally can you supply a photo or drawing of your "flying fuck" I'm sure that it will also create amusement.
Have you had counselling for your inherent and deep seated anger or ever considered that anger usually arises through your lack of understanding and knowledge?
?

@FrayedBear My experience is that anger management is not necessary when expectations and beliefs are managed. When people have a healthy, productive sexual aspect going on in their lives it is made most obvious by a state of repose, good cheer and congeniality. When it is in chaos, the opposite is the case. They are irritable, frustrated and lash-out at things that make them mildly uncomfortable. I saw it in nuns, as a child growing up under their 'care'... Women in our society are confronted with male over-reaching expectations and anger displayed when they are frustrated all the time.

A disposition towards being rude and abusive is also prevalent among males in sexually repressive cultures ruled by extremes of Islam, Christendom, Judaism, Hinduism and more. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why a person allegedly seeking friendship or closeness with females would display such a deeply rooted abusive attitude; especially in matters that relate to sexuality.

Most women, especially associated with this site, have 'been there and done that', unfortunately. If one has beliefs based on real understanding and expectations in close contact with reality, anger is a rare emotion.

One of my favorite observations of Dr. Reich, from clinical work:

"Irrationality and illusion are revealed by the intolerance and cruelty with which they are expressed. We observe that human thought systems show more tolerance as long as they adhere to reality. The more the thought process is removed from reality, the more intolerance and cruelty are needed to guarantee its continued existence." (1949)

I'd add to that something about immaturity if it wasn't so eloquently on display in the first place.

@FrayedBear Im sorry, you keep typing, but all I hear is 'im an ignorant inbreed'
Try again gramps. or dont, only one that cares what you have to say, is you.

@dellik Try having your eyes tested as you are reading not hearing or see a psychiatrist about your problem of mistaking sight for hearing. Perhaps like the man who thought that his wife was a hat you need a book title named after you. Sadly Dr Sacks is now dead. You are providing wonderful entertainment. Keep going young fellow. ?????

Unfortunately you are not in a position to be able to tell the difference.
I'm very pleased however that you didn't cripple your son.

@FrayedBear well that's true but I certainly have never been disappointed with sex or noticed any negative effects. I don't feel "crippled"

@Pete66 Ignorance is bliss. ?