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OK.... Can someone please explain the line between Masculinity & Toxic Masculinity?

bigpawbullets 9 Jan 16
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16

This meme is a typical straw man argument. A man could do plenty of very honorable things in his life. That would not excuse inappropriate behavior.

I have had men openly judge me on my looks, my weight, make assumptions about my intellect and abilities, I've had men try to kiss me or grab me. I really REALLY hate when some man tells me to SMILE or judges what I might be doing as "not feminine." I've had employers question why I needed money and told I should get married. I'm very fortunate in that I have never been the victim of sexual violence.

I find this meme actually insulting to men. It suggests that if a man does something honorable in his life, that gives him carte blanche to conduct himself badly with impunity.

You should smile more. That's just good advice for everyone. In business or your personal life. It makes people around you feel more at ease and reduces friction in social interactions.
But you burn more calories frowning is a really good counter argument.
But really people tell everyone to smile more not just guys to girls. I smile a lot. I've been told to smile. My guy friend has RBF gets told constantly to smile.

I'll leave you with a joke
A man walks into a bar.
Ouch

@SeaGreenEyez That's a fair comment. Nobody liked the Jews at the time. Even my own country, known for its welcoming people, refused to take in any Jewish refugees. But the meme still represents the general thrust of the war against Nazi oppression and most of us accept that it was a good thing.

@brentan @Biosteelman @SeaGreenEyez The meme has NOTHING to do with war or Nazis at all.

@DeStijl Go on.......

@brentan I explained it in my comment. I'll repeat...
This meme is a typical straw man argument. A man could do plenty of very honorable things in his life. That would not excuse inappropriate behavior.

@DeStijl You really made me think about this. First, I'm thinking maybe the meme should leave out toxic and just say masculinity. Then I'm thinking would un-toxic masculinity actually have what it takes to fight and kill Nazis. Then I go on to think about the amount of men who come home from war and cannot re-integrate with the standards back home.

@Biosteelman I don't know about anyone else here, but I have NEVER seen a man being told to smile.

Whether or not I smile is no one's business but mine. I was not put on this earth to make other people feel better.

@kiramea That's your truth and always live by your compass.

Just because you haven't seen it or hear it doesn't mean it didn't happen. I just told you of two.

@Biosteelman no man tells another man, a stranger, while passing in the street, to smile. Don’t be that idiot.

@Cassiopeia I've never seen a stranger passing in the street say to a lady get you should smile more.

I've only seen it for both sexes in a business setting by both supervisors and customers.

@Biosteelman Well, I can assure you it happens, it’s a cat-calling favourite, and one I have experienced myself on occasion when younger, sometimes followed by “it may never happen”.

You must live something of a sheltered life if this is something you have never heard of.

@Cassiopeia No. I work and live in Las Vegas in the Casino industry. Catcalling in the 15 years I've seen millions of people and thousands catcall. Never once did I hear a guy say " Hey baby smile". " Girl put a grin on that face" " Honey you should show them pearly whites". I don't doubt it has happened I can only portray what I've seen when interacting with guests from all around the world while they've been drinking and who knows what else.

But here is some food for thought. Maybe. Just Maybe if both sexes are encouraging both sexes to smile more in social environments it has to do with the fact we are social creatures by nature and not so much " Toxic Masculinity".

What I can tell you is when I was a Supervisor I gave one strike warnings to guests for Catcalling. A repeat would get them 86'ed for making my other guests feel uncomfortable.

12

To some there is no difference to others there is. But basically bad behaviour that is framed as male accepted behaviour.
Such as Cat Calling
Bullying the weak
Rape
Basically stuff normal men would not do and would defend against if he had a backbone.
Some extend toxic behaviour to include stoicism, tribe mentality, and aggressive behaviour beyond being uncouth.

I swooned a little. Thank you.

11

It's pretty simple. Don't be an arsehole!

Whoa! I'm labeled "arsehole"!!
🙂

Nobody has to be an arsehole to be tough. This meme is suggesting that the belief systems and poor behavior of the past made it possible to defend against the worse Nazi scum bags. That is not true. Toughness is not dependent on bullying, misogyny, racism etc. It was just the norm back then. A large proportion of the world were just one step away from the Nazis actions. They defended against the Germans and Japanese to not be taken over by them, not because of moral superiority. The indoctrination is that moral superiority won. Hah!

8

Fighting in a war does not give a man the right to comment ‘look at the tits on that’ or ‘I’d give that one’ loudly about a woman as she walks past, to grab a strange girl’s backside in a club. Or, as an extreme, to murder a woman who rejects you. Or to blame the girl who rejects a boy who then goes on to commit a terrible act; ‘she should have just given him a chance’ - no, she shouldn't.

This story about a young man and his mates playing a game on WhatsApp where they rate women they have slept with: [bbc.co.uk]

Toxic masculinity is about men and boys, ‘man up’ and ‘men don’t cry’ can be harmful to small boys. And yeah, just don’t be an arsehole.

Perfect response

My middle brother was very toxic (he was also an alcoholic). If his son cried he would berate him to "act like a man". Once they were rough-housing and my nephew accidently hit his father. My brother back-slapped him so hard that he flew across the room. My brother's response...... "If he hits me like a man, I will treat him like a man" (my nephew was around 8yrs old at the time). My brother would also tell me that I'm sissifying my own sons because I allowed them to be children and have feelings.

Needless to say I was not close to my brother. The first time I saw him in over 20 years was when I was down to see my baby brother who was dying of cancer, then that October at my father's funeral. Both times he was drunk off his ass and could not handle the fact that his brother and dad were dying.

8

Masculinity is positive behavior. Toxic masculinity is negative behavior.

Seems kind of subjective. But if you apply a specific cultural set of mores. ... probably as good as any definition.

8

Think about the meaning of the word, "toxic".
It shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

So... after reviewing all the definitions from Google... the differences seem minor.

@bigpawbullets That's unfortunate.

@bigpawbullets they seem minor to you because you're a man.

6

I think being a gentleman means being courteous and kind and using biological strength to help those who might need it by carrying heavy things, opening doors, etc. There is nothing wrong with those positive things of masculinity...courage, strength, protecting the weak, elderly, children...

Toxic masculinity means anything that is hurtful to others, including themselves...a man should be able to express feelings and cry...to care...to not feel like they need to beat someone up for doing or saying something...to not insult women or men...being a bully...putting others down for fun...raping or assaulting people...

Being patriotic is not necessarily toxic, but thinking the answer to problems is war or aggression is...many kind and generous souls were lost in wars...it wouldn't have mattered if they were masculine enough or not...

I like you're input "thinktwice".

@bigpawbullets I am a bit old school and have had to be educated by the younger people on some of the new terms and ideas that are coming out...but manners and civility are universal no matter what changes happen...I don't take offense if a man takes my arm or holds my chair...those are manners ... I try to adapt but some things I just have to shut up about because it is a different world and I want those coming up behind me to make it theirs

@thinktwice
Great view on the circle of life.

6

[boredpanda.com]

And this is just how it harms men.

Basically it's the difference between being secure in yourself and being an insecure show boat bully dirt bag.

Not only do women now fight in the military as well, but throughout history, so have serial killers, rapists, and some of the worst human flotsam in history. There's a reason they used to sentence men to either prison or the armed forces. Fighting in a war doesn't automatically make you an honorable or complete human being.

6

Masculinity retains its traditional definition. "Toxic masculinity" is a feministic construct attempting to portray masculinity as a negative.

Blaming "toxic masculinity" on feminism is toxic masculinity....

@Qualia but of course it is. Feminism infiltrates media, media becomes feminist. Feminist media then convinces everyone that anything anti-feminist is bad.

5

Men secure in themselves are truly gentle-men, if masculin. Those who aren’t can overcompensate to the point of toxicity. Strong men don’t need to prove it. Apparently, the weak do, often against women.

Varn Level 8 Jan 16, 2019

Truth.

Or men who dress as women.

4

Fighting Nazi's is a most patriotic endeavor. Grabbing women by the "chooch" & bragging about it is toxic. Charles De Gaulle had to appeal to General Eisenhower to restrain his USA troops due to the mass rapes of French women. Seems American GIs thought "no" meant "yes" in French. Little known history conveniently omitted from our propaganda films. Audi Murphy excluded. He was not toxic.

Source:

The History Channel : After the Victory

Ok.
Can't argue with that.

4

Remember when Trump was recorded saying that he would sexually assault a woman, and he could get away with it because he's famous? Do you remember what the justification of that was? "It's locker room talk." Trump's statement was indicative of toxic masculinity, and the supposed support of the statement was indicative of it.

Regular masculinity is approaching a woman and initiating a conversation. Regular masculinity is saying that it's not cool to speak like that about women.

Really good comment.

@jorj Do you think that putting your hand up someone’s skirt is ‘making a move’?

She feels she has no choice but to allow it because she would lose her job and never find work again in that field if she complained.

@jorj Victim blaming in action, folks.

@jorj And likely lose her job, her career, consequently maybe her home, her children, her life. For a fight she knows she cannot win.

Yeah, I’ll get right on that.
?

3

... !

3

i know! it's not as if women served in wwii as nurses, ambulance drivers, wacs, waves or anything other than waiting receptacles for the random heroic penis.

masculinity: hi honey. i'm home. i have a penis. i see you're making dinner. why don't i do a little laundry while you do that? yep, i still have a penis.

toxic masculinity: hi honey. i'm home. i have a penis. you don't. you're my slave. my penis is your boss.

masculinity: good morning miss wiggins. please type up this paper, cancel my lunch date, send flowers to my wife and make 100 copies of this drawing my daughter made of the next door neighbor's cat. thank you. oh by the way, did i mention i have a penis? i didn't? good. i was trying to remind myself not to mention it. i'm glad i didn't.

toxic masculinity: hey sexy. wow, nice teats. type up this paper, cancel my lunch date, send flowers to my wife, make 100 copies of this drawing my daughter made of the next door neighbor's cat and bend over so i can rub my penis against your butt. what, you want me to take my hand off your breast? what are you, a lesbian or one of these feminazis?

masculinity: it's terrible that miss wiggins got raped the other day. i hope they catch the guy who did it. i hope she testifies, even though i have a penis.

toxic masculinity: what was she wearing? how much had she had to drink? did she smile at him? what was she doing there anyway? she was asking for it. she just had second thoughts the next day. i can put my penis anywhere i want. it's MY penis.

g

OMG!!!!
Now!!!! I get it!!!!

3

I think it's all about the change in what men can provide to society. Their strength and their courage were really appreciated in the past. Technology and peacetime have reduced such a need for strength and bravery. Men need to re-train for the future but keep in mind the future might revert back to the ways of the past in a heartbeat. If that happens, Sheldon Cooper will need to turn into John Wayne mighty fast!

Good comment. Thanks for reinforcing my belief.

No, there's still a need for men (and women) to be strong and brave and to stand up to bullies and to protect those who are unable to protect themselves. That hasn't changed. Hopefully the need to use weapons to support that has changed.

@jerry99 I get the feeling that toxic masculinity is ideal for war but must be turned off afterwards.

3

These days, both men and women are in the military so I don't get the reference at all... Masculinity is all well and good... In and of itself but when that masculinity is expressed at the expense of others, it is toxic... When it abuses others, its toxic... When it frightens others, its toxic... I hope you understand this 😟

Abuses others, or themselves. An entire lifetime of repression because someone might see them as less manly is also ridiculous. The only perceived masculine emotions that are ok are lust, greed, anger and apparently an extreme sense of self-satisfaction.

@CommonHuman I don't understand you're comment ... Please explain ....

@Cutiebeauty I should have been more articulate. I was in agreement. I think it is abusing themselves with all of the self-regulation and constant fear of looking less than totally male. That kind of self-repression reinforced by peer-pressure or social mores lead men down a distinctly self-destructive road. As well as indoctrinating boys into this method of thinking and creates heightened fear in those around someone displaying toxic masculinity.

I have no idea if I clarified or muddied the water, but I gave it a go.

@CommonHuman thank you. I fully understand it. Waters not muddied at all 😉

3

Seems to me like the Nazis would be complaining in this time period.... hmmm

3

Misunderstood machismo?

Maybe

@bigpawbullets If you know what "machismo" really means you may have the answer to your question.

@DUCHESSA
I've always thought that the term meant "manly".

@bigpawbullets Not at all...and you know that's not the meaning.

3

tox·ic
/ˈtäksik
adjective

  1. poisonous.
    "the dumping of toxic waste"
    synonyms: poisonous, venomous, virulent, noxious, dangerous, destructive, harmful, unsafe, malignant, injurious, pestilential, pernicious.

When one's masculinity is used in a toxic way.

So.... wimpy until called upon to be "masculine".

@bigpawbullets That's quite a leap to say I'm implying that if a man is not masculine then he is wimpy. Black and white thinking is pretty close-minded. What I love most about men is their masculinity. Being toxic is using masculinity to over-power, dominate, and manipulate others.

2

Masculinity is about being being comfortable in your manhood. Toxic masculinity is about feeling so entitled and insecure about it that anything questionable is perceived as a threat, and a reason to impose power or control.

That's perfect. Explains it very well.

2

Actual masculinity is not being attacked when people speak of toxic masculinity and quite frankly, the rage-filled response to the conversation are prime examples toxic masculinity at work. So what is toxic masculinity?

The phrase is derived from studies that focus on violent behavior perpetrated by men, and—this is key—is designed to describe not masculinity itself, but a form of gendered behavior that results when expectations of “what it means to be a man” go wrong. The Good Men Project defines it this way: Toxic masculinity is a narrow and repressive description of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status and aggression. It’s the cultural ideal of manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are a weakness; where sex and brutality are yardsticks by which men are measured, while supposedly “feminine” traits—which can range from emotional vulnerability to simply not being hypersexual—are the means by which your manhood is defined.

For some men, adding the word “toxic” triggers rage, so let’s also look at it through the terms of hegemonic masculinity. Hegemonic masculinity is part of a gender order theory which recognizes multiple masculinities that vary across time, culture and the individual. Hegemonic masculinity is defined as a practice that legitimizes powerful men's dominant position in society and justifies the subordination of the common male population and women, and other marginalized ways of being a man. Hegemonic masculinity also includes a gender hierarchy and the psycho-social dynamics of the varieties of masculinity.

In contemporary American and European culture, hegemonic masculinity serves as the standard upon which the "real man" is defined. According to R. W. Connell, contemporary hegemonic masculinity is built on two legs, domination of women and a hierarchy of intermale dominance. It is also shaped to a significant extent by the stigmatization of homosexuality. Hegemonic masculinity is the stereotypic notion of masculinity that shapes the socialization and aspirations of young males. Today’s hegemonic masculinity in the United States of America and Europe includes a high degree of ruthless competition, an inability to express emotions other than anger, an unwillingness to admit weakness or dependency, devaluation of women and all feminine attributes in men, and homophobia.

And yes, I can provide the studies if you would like to read them.

Cricket! This is exactly what I was hoping someone might post. To me the term "Toxic" is accusitory. Also pretty subjective. I've read some articles similar to your post and find this a more accurate description.

Ummm, I'm that nerd... author last names and publication date would be great, I can find them from there. Many many thanks!

2

Good point ?

1

I believe a character with masculinity would be something like superman, while one with toxic masculinity would be Superman after Lex Luthor inserted trump's brain into his head. I could hear it now,

"Aren't I great?" - You didn't do anything but play golf all week. "But I played the greatest golf, didn't I?"
'

1

They did, nobody cared.

1

I always wonder about commercials such as the following, but this one is well done and it just came out yesterday

cava Level 7 Jan 16, 2019
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