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If trump was to be impeached the senate wouldn't convict, but even if they did pence would pardon him and then we'd have pence as president. The state's prosecution would be invalidated because of double jeopardy. It's a no win situation. There is a belief that a sitting President can't be indited so he may get away with his corruption until voted out. Should he win a second term many of his infractions would exceed the statue of limitations. There are solutions to insure justice. Do you think Nancy Pelosi is taking the right track?

rogueflyer 8 Mar 13
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18 comments

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1

Yes, she is doing the right thing. Pelosi is one of the smartest politicians in Washington, maybe the smartest. These investigations will serve the same purpose without all of the grandstanding by Republicans, as we saw with Cohen. Wait for the Mueller report.

2

In order for impeachment to be successful, the GOP lead Senate would have to grow a spine and get a soul. Neither will happen in my lifetime. Also, an impeachment would leave Pence in the Oval Office and that would be worse than orange.

2

Machiavelli termed it as a good prince (Obama) is replaced by tyrant (Trump) who turn is overthrown by aristocracy (Pence and senate) who are corrupted into becoming Oligarchs who become cast out of power by the people Democracy which degenerates into anarchy... repeat. Thanks Niccolo

3

One reason not to impeach and remove Trump is that strategically, it would not be a positive move to get a Dem elected to the presidency in 2020. If Trump is left in office, his abhorrent behavior and policies will offend more people in the next two years who had voted for him previously. However, if impeached and removed, Pence will serve out his presidency and likely not offend as many swing voters and would be more likely to win the presidency in 2020 than Trump.

1

He's not going anywhere until he is voted out.

Yes, I can't see comrade trump resigning. We'll be lucky if he leaves when voted out.

@rogueflyer I've heard some people say hoping he resigns with a bullet to his own skull.

2

I think she is. If they were to successfully impeach, the Trump humpers would only ramp up the rhetoric that there is a "witch hunt" (if I never hear that word again it will be too soon) whereas it will be harder to argue him having lost a legitimate election. Not that they won't try.

GwenC Level 7 Mar 13, 2019

Totally agree.

1

Double jeopardy would not attach to a federal pardon unless the law of that state legally recognizes double jeopardy applying to violation of federal law with respect to the same state charges. Currently, double jeopardy applies under New York law for violations of state and federal law where circumstances are the same. Legislation was introduced in the New York legislature but did not pass the NY state Senate. It has been reintroduced this year. I could not find addition details on its status though it appears more likely to pass this year.

3

Yes, Pelosi is correct about impeachment. All those in Congress advocating for it need to step back and think about the consequences of their plans to impeach. Let the people vote his lousy ass out!

Yes. This It would almost certainly backfire. It might make him a martyr.

Vote him out then indite him and his kids.

2

An impeachment is not a criminal trial, the standards of "high crimes and misdemeanors" are not specified, and congress isn't part of the judiciary. Double jeopardy has no relevance. If convicted he is only removed office.

We want to see him in handcuffs. His corruption is stunning.

@rogueflyer I agree and once he's out of office, prosecutors will be like crows on a roadkill. I suspect he will flee the country. Saudi Arabia has probably already been paid off, they took in Idi Amin.

Double jeopardy does have relevance in some states. New York currently has double jeopardy laws in place for when a criminal act’s circumstances are the same under both the federal and state laws. New York is currently attempting to repeal that provision of law.

@Rob1948 It has no relevance to impeachment, which is being fired. Your boss can fire you for stealing and still press criminal charges

@Buttercup if Trump is Pardoned by himself or Pence, should Trump resign or be impeached (Republicans will never do that as things stand today) then double jeopardy would apply to any state laws that cover the same crime as federal laws cover.

6

If he isn't reelected the state can press charges. There is no double jeopardy. Two completely different animals. I'm just hoping the Democrats don't screw it up again. We can't afford 4 more years.

Dems have a divided party. They insist on calling themselves "socialists". The Republicans are already picking up on that. Democrats need the independents. Personally, I'll like to see a more moderate Dem candidate.

@rogueflyer Hillary Clinton was a moderate. It didn’t work.

Double jeopardy does have relevance in some states. New York currently has double jeopardy laws in place for when a criminal act’s circumstances are the same under both the federal and state laws. New York is currently attempting to repeal that provision of law.

@strgazr63 Yes there's that. I believe there were other factors involved also. It can be said also that she just wasn't exciting and motivating. I'll vote for whoever runs against him but I would prefer it's a more moderate person.

9

There would be no "double jeopardy". Federal charges and state charges are two entirely different things and being acquitted of one does not negate being tried (and convicted) on the other.
Impeachment, at this point, would be a complete waste of time and money.
Pelosi knows this and isn't stupid.
She did however, point out that impeachment would be back on the table if something else came up which would warrant it. 45 would have to be shown to have done something SO bad, that even the republicans in the Senate turn on him.
As long as she is Speaker, she's not going to pursue impeachment unless and until she KNOWS the Senate would vote to convict and remove.

Unfortunately that man could drown a litter of puppies in a bathtub on national television and his cult would find a way to justify it. It needs to be a blatant and intentional disregard for the law. Even then it would be difficult to force them to see the truth. They have been doing whatever they want and they like it.

Not sure it's true that double jeopardy wouldn't fly. I'm sure his attorney would argue that he was already pardoned for that crime. States case would have to be a different item. That said trump has a pretty rich field of felonies to chose from. I'm sure something would stick.

@rogueflyer We'll see what happens with Manafort.
There has been a SCOTUS decision which makes that distinction, and I'm sure 45's lawyers would argue it.
I'd just as soon that miserable motherfucker dropped dead and saved the taxpayers a lot of time and money. Pence, too. They both have to go.

Double jeopardy does have relevance in some states. New York currently has double jeopardy laws in place for when a criminal act’s circumstances are the same under both the federal and state laws. New York is currently attempting to repeal that provision of law.

@Rob1948 Yeah, I did a little research after that initial post. Silly me, I was going by what I thought actually made sense. I keep forgetting that so many laws have been implemented to serve the interests of the rich.
Have to hope the stars align and all the right laws are in place make it possible to put that orange shitstain away for the rest of his unnatural life.

@KKGator Maybe a very painful heart attack but not fatal. Just so he could go through it again.

@rogueflyer I'd rather he and Pence were both dead. I'd rather see the taxpayers have to foot the bill for State funerals, than have to pay for further investigations, impeachment proceeding, a Senate trial and conviction, and then having to house and feed them, for the rest of their lives.
The savings would be so worth it.

@KKGator I forgot. We now have a new Speaker of the House! Should something happen to Pres and VP Nancy would be Pres. Things have gotten better. Unlikely but better.

5

Impeachment at this point is nothing but political masturbation.

Hadn't thought about it in that way before but I guess impeachment is just a political feel good at this point.

0

Everything Trump believes pence believes. But he's a better package. If Trump leaves, the media and mainstream Democrats will all breathe a sigh and say that now we can get back to cooperation and proper governance. Let's all be friends. Let's get back to being spineless. It's better that way.

Don't know about pence being a "better package". He's a religious nut! He will continue the theocracy of the US I would hope the Dems wouldn't allow that.

Don't count on that. Everyone knows (including the democrats in the House) that Pence would be even worse than 45.
Pence needs to be removed BEFORE anything can be done to get 45 out.

@rogueflyer I mean he is a presentable version of the filth that Trump doesn't bother to hide. He's oh so serious.

@rogueflyer at least with that nut job we would know what we have. It's easier to fight the devil we know.

@Count_Viceroy pence is loved by the religious right.

3

The senate has to try him if the house vote for impeachment. The two third majority in the senate is impossible to attain for a conviction. The republicans would never vote to impeach him. The democrats do not have enough votes in the senate to secure a conviction and get him out of office. The state charges would stick because they would be from crimes that are different than the federal indictments even if Pence was to pardon him. When he loses the November 2020 election, he will resign as president, and Pence will pardon him for all and any federal crimes that he may have committed. The stat charges will be filed in New York, and there will be no double Jeopardy involved.

That's one outcome. We may want to wait and see the outcome of 2020 elections. Dems could also win WH and or Senate. Hadn't thought about his resigning after losing the election but might that be obstruction of justice.

@rogueflyer No it would not be obstruction. Nixon did it and Ford pardoned him. The president has the right to pardon anyone for federal crimes per the constitution.

Not necessarily true as double jeopardy applies now in New York.

@Rob1948 the state charges are not the same as the federal charges, in that case it does not.

@noworry28 that would not be true for every charge. For example, filing a fraudulent loan application is against federal law and state law. A pardon would, in states where double jeopardy applies, prevent the state from indicting him on those charges.

1

Yes for now

2

As a resident (and tax payer) in NY, I want his ass fried!!! Seriously, the tax evasion alone costs us NY'ers millions. The fact that the Federal Justice department won't indite him doesn't mean NY can't. Once he is indicted, any senator who votes against his removal from office (after the house has impeached) is violating every NY'ers right for equal justice under NY law. He needs to be held accountable for a lot of things. But to me, most importantly, is his blatant disregard of the law here in NY.

We probably all feel strongly about justice for him. Hopefully, the feds will leave the strongest state crimes to NY so that he can't be pardoned for those state crimes.

3

Given that impeachment talk about the current president is just a knee-jerk reaction to not liking him and not a direct consequence of any actual impeachable offense, yes, Pelosi is on the right track.

4

Don't worry. Donny "Two Tongues" is destined to stick his feet so far into his mouth, they will become wrapped inextricably around his trachea!

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