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I know that I'm going to get a lot of hate for this but for anyone who has followed me on Facebook or IG I couldn't care less. Here's the deal I think that it's extremely hypocritical to be pro abortion but against the death penalty. How in the hell are you going to put the life of a convicted murder/rapist over a child's life. You can be both against abortion and the death penalty, pro abortion and the death penalty or even against abortion and for the death penalty because the condemned has been given a chance at life but the blew it but seriously you will fight for the life of someone who has murdered a child but not for the actual child. Make that make sense.

mrveggieman187 6 Apr 12
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37 comments

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0

Maybe the death penalty for people who continue to be a serious danger while in prison.

But maybe that should be quietly taken care of, rather than officially.

Like that "Wild Bill" character in The Green Mile. Or worse that sadistic guard.

13

a first-trimester fetus is not a child. it has no functional nerve endings. it is a clump of cells. if you happen to want a child, then emotionally, to you, it's a child, but scientifically, it is NOT a child. it's a very low-stage fetus. conflating a living, breathing, BORN person with a clump of cells invalidates your argument right off the bat.

meanwhile, my objection to the death penalty has nothing to do with the character of the condemned individual. it doesn't even have to do with the shocking number of people on death row whose innocence has been proven by dna. it's not even about how it is cheaper (and crueler) to house a prisoner for a lifetime than to kill him or her. it is not about them. it's about us. if we decide someone deserves to die, how are we different from someone who decided that about someone else? the difference is twofold: 1. we disagree with that person about who should die. 2. we get together as a group and make our decision "legally." should we not be better than that?

g

10

Pro-abortion is a right wing/buybull thumper talking point.
I am not pro-abortion, I am pro choice. If you get educated on abortion you would know that it is one of the most difficult decisions women have to make and one of last resort.
We also live in a country that’s ultimately run by men. Insurance will pay for Viagra but until the ACA birth control was not covered.
A similar argument is made against the right. How can you be pro-gun and pro-life at the same time.
The point is.. since your a man, keep your opinions out of my body.
I’m Canadian we haven’t had the death penalty in a very long time like most of the developed world. It’s a issue I struggle with as some of the crimes are so heinous.

I have an HMO and it doesn't pay for Viagra.

@DenoPenno on an HMO?? Maybe not your formulary... But some will and Medicare will if MD deems medically necessary.
With insurance you get what you pay for, you know how that goes.

9

I firmly support abortion on demand.
No woman should ever be forced to gestate any pregnancy she doesn't want,
for any reason, at any point in that pregnancy.
No pregnancy, in the history of pregnancy, has ever been guaranteed to result
in a live birth.
The unborn hold no intrinsic value and are "owed" no rights. Ever.
No one, male or female, has the right to interfere with what any woman chooses
to do with her own body. No one else is remotely qualified to determine whose
reasons are "valid" and whose are not. Fuck what anyone else thinks.
It's NONE of their business.

There is NO correlation between abortion and the death penalty.
That is a conflated "argument", and holds no validity.

9

I'm sorry but as they say, you don't have a dog in this fight. Reproductive rights are women's rights.

@jorj No. RIGHTS.

8

Kinda like being pro-life (antiabortion) and want to condemn women who have an abortion to death.
Not much logic in this thought process if you ask me.

7

Because abortion is none of my business
A mass murderer is

I'd hold a friends hand walk with her past the shouting haters at the clinic if that was her choice.

@BufftonBeotch done it on multiple occasions

7

Get back to us when your brother raped you and you are 12 and pregnant.

I'm over 12 and my brother isn't a rapist so sorry to ruin your sick fantasies.

@mrveggieman187 now I Know what is your problem: you can only think of yourself! And that is too bad

@mrveggieman187 /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

SWOOOOOSHHHHAOO

Right over his damn head.

@jorj All pregnancy is a health risk that has to be taken voluntarily. Look at the foster care system for further proof of what happens when women have babies they weren't prepared for or didn't want. I'd rather a bundle of cells be removed before any self awareness develops, rather than have innocent lives who are fully self aware go through protracted trauma. Then again, I have compassion.

@CommonHuman Birth control education should be mandatory, but a healthy active sex life is seen as a sin in this backward nation.

@jorj NO.

@jorj The difference is that pregnancy doesn't endanger the mans life.

@CommonHuman Wow. You dug deep for this from April.

@BufftonBeotch Not even sure how I ran across it again.

@jorj No. If they participated in sex and the woman chooses to have the baby he gets to pay.

Wrap that Whopper well honey!

@jorj Again, pregnancy is a big deal, not your body, not your call. And it shouldn't be, in any way shape or form. Unless you want her to have control over whether or not your penis is still attached.

@jorj Yeah. Because men wanting to raise the child of a casual fuck they never want to see again...let alone make a life long commitment to, are EVERYWHERE.

@jorj If you feel this strongly, it may be something you want to discuss with a sex partner before bumping bits.

@jorj Most women do take charge of their own reproduction, even there are those who want to take that away. If the birth control fails, and the woman is not prepared for the pregnancy or child rearing she has the absolute obligation to terminate the pregnancy. If she chooses to go through with the pregnancy, but wants to adopt that is her choice as well.

@jorj You can have an opinion about how someone proceeds with a pregnancy the moment YOU are pregnant.

How is this so hard for you to comprehend?

@jorj Basically your position is....

  • You are angry that more women won't have sex with you.
  • If a woman does have sex with you birth control is entirely her responsibility.
  • If that birth control fails and she is not ready to be pregnant and does not want a child and you want A child; she is obligated to risk her health for nine months to deliver you this human.
  • If that birth control fails and she decides to have the child and you are not ready to have a child she is a money grubbing bitch for expecting you at least monetarily contribute.

I'm pretty sure I read your position right.

7

No hate here directed at you, only sadness for your ignorance of the subject of abortion. I've had two abortions in my life. The first one was due to being raped at 16 and becoming pregnant. I have no regrets what so ever for that abortion and never will. The second was when I was married and looking forward to my pregnancy until finding out that my fetus was not developing correctly. The heart and lungs were growing outside the body cavity and the baby would have died within minutes of birth had I continued the pregnancy. This pregnancy was wanted by my husband and I, but we decided to have the abortion so our baby would not suffer anymore than it had to upon birth. Men especially, have no right to tell any woman what she can and cannot do with her own body. As for the death penalty, I am against State sponsored murder period. There have been innocent people executed in this Country and for me, that is murder. Our justice system is not working when it is executing innocent people due to bad lawyers.

6

When you really boil it down and look at the people who are pushing the anti-abortion laws, it is more about controlling and oppressing women, mainly the ones who are poor, than it is about saving the lives of fetuses. They are hypocrites who don't give a damn about the children who are born poor and unwanted.Their positions on other issues related to the health and welfare of children who are born poor reveals that very clearly.

6

There are so many terrible things that happen even when people desperately wanted these children.

Quote
I remember saying, “What can a baby like mine do? Does she just sleep all the time?” The doctor winced when I said that, and he responded, “Babies like yours are generally not comfortable enough to sleep.” That’s when I knew for sure."
[thecut.com]

Abortion is mercy sometimes.

It is not a decision for religious people to make,

It's a decision for the pregnant woman and whoever she decides to consult.

6

This just in: You can feel differently about different issues.

For the record, I'm not pro-abortion. Would never get one personally. Not many people are. I'm pro-choice. It's just none of my goddamn business.

I'm also against the death penalty, but for worse reasons. The vast majority of criminals don't deserve it, and for the fraction of a percent that do, I prefer less humane treatment. Permanent solitary confinement is far worse than death.

4

No one is pro abortion within the context of killing children(save rare mentally ill people). Many are pro abortion in relation to a womans right to end a pregnancy that threatens her life. There are many restrictions within legal abortion depending on the state were you live. So generalizing people as pro child killing in relation to abortion is incorrect and simplistic. Any one who has any knowledge or context knows it is not an easy decision for a woman to make. You want to eliminate abortion in America? Support universal comprehensive health care and sexual education for children and young adults. I do support a womans right to access to abortion not just for the freedom of her body but also due to the fact that our culture and government fails so often at actually applying logic and reason to solve issues such as why abortion is even a needed option. As for the Death Penalty I oppose it for one overriding reason; innocent people are killed by the state. Not to mention the fact that even now the Supreme Court has basically legalized torture of the condemned and require they provide the burden of outlining the method of their death to avoid such torture.

Quarm Level 6 Apr 12, 2019
4

Well then... of all the people I know, I would guess they are split fairly evenly between pro- and anti- death penalty. On the other hand, to the best of my knowledge, no one I know is pro-abortion, though the majority of people I associate with are pro-choice. Pro-choice and pro-abortion are in no way the same thing, but the best part is that, you and I being men, it is none of our gotdamm business what women do with their bodies.
Now that that is out of the way, I'll move on to your tags. As the name of this website is Agnostic.com, it would stand to reason that the majority of people here do not believe in any vengeful gods, so the threat of #hell doesn't really carry much weight in these parts, but keep trying my friend, I'm sure someone somewhere will be swayed by your somewhat warped logic. Have a cheery day.

4

Many people (and, I think, most non-religious people) will agree that at the moment of fertilization, that being should not have the full right-to-life of a human being. Most people will also agree that just before the moment of birth, that being has as much right-to-life as anyone. Somewhere in between, we all draw a line. And we have to accept that everyone won't agree with the line we draw for ourselves. But the needs of society insist we draw a line. Unfortunately, there's no magic answer. I don't think science can even answer this one. It's just something that we have to agree on as a society. Where do we draw a line that best balances the rights of each individual being in the equation?

Well said. Many shades of gray in many areas of life and this is no different. Having said that I am definitely pro choice, every woman must decide on her own and, in some extreme cases, even late abortions may be preferable to very bad outcomes of pregnancy that are not known until later....As for the death penalty, decidedly no.

@Elganned I disagree. This just seems to be a stopgap. It only looks reasonable because of the current limits of medical technology. Eventually, the technology will exist to run through an entire pregnancy outside of a person. Does that mean individual sperms and eggs then have the right to life? Or at least that fertilized eggs do? And will there be funds to pay for the extraordinary feats needed to develop an embryo to term? I'd bet that we'd end up with what amounts to a prohibition on abortion. ["well, this three day old clump of cells could exist outside the mother, so you can't abort it. Of course, you can't afford that sort of care, so you'll just have to carry it to term yourself.]

When it can survive independently of the womb with reasonable expectation for quality of life. That's the line.
The quality of life is key. If it can barely survive outside the womb, will be in constant pain for the 5 days it will live, that decision should be up to the woman.
All decisions about what is happening in a womans body should be her decision.
No woman is going to go through 8 months of pregnancy and magically get a wild hair up her butt to flippantly abort.

4

I trust the government to accurately decide who’s guilty about as much as I trust them to decide who is mandated to raise kids, or which race gets to own another. Which is: not at all. I can’t tell if you’re trying to argue anti choice or pro death penalty but either way your argument needs some work. The right wing view of both of these issues is unfairly stifling the black community more than anything else. Making sure poor women don’t have a choice but to raise more kids is only a way to punish them, keep them poor and producing bodies for the wars at home and abroad. The death penalty is disproportionately acted out upon for black people and with the number of other innocent black people we’ve found n had to release after 20 years in prison, you should realize that the guy screaming about his innocence on death row could easily be you.

Personally I’m not 100% against the death penalty in principle, but the crime has to be heinous and the proof has to be air tight; and our government or indeed any human institution has proven themselves unwilling or incapable of holding themselves to the standard I would have to have to support it. The instinct to use it as revenge as if we feel it brings justice to anyone is one of the stupidest notions of all time. The idea that you can kill your prisoner to teach the others a lesson and keep them in line is straight from the Lynch mob mentality and practices of slave holders. This threat is not there to keep you safe it’s there to keep you under control.

3

The fetus is not a human being able to support itself. Way too many men leave women alone.

Ya wanna fix this? Any man who clearly impregnates a woman without her permission should be degenitalled and imprisoned.

3

What does pro abortion mean? If you mean pro-choice, you should write it. Otherwise, you might consider not making comparisons and editorials about issues you don’t really understand.

@jorj So forcing a women to endure the possibility of death is acceptable to you just because you have planted your seed?

@jorj you appear to be a joy

@jorj You already went to the extreme: You just clarified:::: YOU, as a man, gets to decide what a woman has to do for the rest of their life. Men do NOT get to decide for women.
That is the whole point of the law.
Men do NOT get to decide for women.

@jorj Every pregnancy has dozens of health risks NOT associated with known medical conditions.

@jorj Except men will never have to bear the full brunt of consequences of sex. If it isn't happening inside your body, you can have an opinion, but it ultimately doesn't count. Nor should it.

3

You seem to think in a rather extreme way. Why would anyone on this site hate you? We don't deal in hate - we try to produce rational arguments. And it is certainly not rational to equate abortion and the death penalty. Your argument needs to be rather more nuanced.

3

I think the same number of people are pro abortion, as the number who are pro murder. It should be available as a choice.

If there were no penalties for murder, would the murder rate increase significantly?
My guess is not.
If abortion is outlawed it only eliminates legal abortion.

3

Justice is the determining factor.

A person, any person, has a sovereign right over their body, A humans right over their body is superior to the fetus's right to life. This is clear in cases of rape, and when carrying the fetus endangers the life of the mother.

I'm not in favor of the death penalty, I don't think 'an eye for an eye' vengeance is just.

cava Level 7 Apr 12, 2019

@jorj That does not sound right. People who take drugs don't care what the law says, they do what they want to do. They put whatever they want into their bodies. The war on drugs is an absurd horror show, they ought to be legalized drugs as they have as in Portugal or Uruguay.

@jorj Sorry you've haven't been able to put a nick in the argument.

@jorj You ought to reason, and not just assert.

@jorj Law where? Pot is legal in 13 states...are you capable of arguing?

@jorj It makes no difference..people take dope because they have sovereign rule over their body regardless of the law and that's a fact. The law does not make Abortion just or unjust.

@jorj Yes, if fact stats don't change

2

You should actually learn the facts about your topic of choice before you go on a rant and look stupid.

JimG Level 8 Apr 12, 2019

@jorj My comments are motivated by the replies as well as the original post. I'm not inclined to inform everybody who misrepresents a position they oppose where they've gone wrong. There are plenty of cases in this thread where others have done that.

2

I can see the point from the other side. As in the christian right being pro-life but support the death penalty. As for your point? It does not hold water. A convicted murderer, however heinous their crime. Is a living breathing human being. Whereas a fetus is just a potential human being.

@Bobby9 if not viable outside the host, it is a parasite under the definition of "parasite". Perio.d

@Bobby9 Yes, just. The world is a cold and cruel place full of all sorts of fuckery. If all of the pro-life people turned their energy to solving the root cause reasons abortions happen then they would actually accomplish something. Instead they protest woman's clinics and pat themselves on the back for harassing people who are going to their doctors for a check up. They ignore or resist the fact that sex education, access to contraceptives and teaching woman to respect themselves and men to respect woman as equals all reduce unwanted pregnancy, STD's and sexual violence. They rail against the issue AND the solutions which to me makes them both insane and idiotic.

@Bobby9 Yes "just", if you use a condom or any contraceptive then you have prevented a potential human being. Extreme but not to Catholics.

@Bobby9 An acorn is just that, It is not a tree, a table or a door. it has only the potential to become those things and only under the right conditions.

@Bobby9 Ah now theres the cut off point "if left alone a fetus develops into a human". If it is sustainable outside of the womb? This can vary depending on how damaged or handicapped the fetus is but most abortion laws will draw the line just before this horizon.

@Bobby9 Why not? The definition of a parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host organism and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. No were does it state it cannot be the same species.

@Bobby9 [futurity.org]

@Bobby9 A parasite is defined as a organism that cannot live without feeding off its host. Many parasites have little damaging effect on their hosts and often by design intentionally do not kill or even weaken the host simply due to the fact that they need the host to live. This study does nothing to change the fact that the fetus cannot live without the mother. Therefore from a purely scientific point of view it is a parasite until it can live outside the mother. You implication that a parasite competes with its host is not universal to all parasites. The impact of such feeding varies widely. This study does nothing to change the basic definition of a parasite and the fact that the fetus fits that description. Within ecology parasites have a role like all organisms. Ultimately your opposition to abortion seems rooted in theology rather then reason and science. You want to eliminate abortion? Research and find solutions for the reasons abortions happen such as unprotected sex (solution: contraceptives and reason based sex education as well as educating young people to respect themselves and others enough to take such precautions.) , lack of education (solution: fund schools, after school programs, college education, free access to information, libraries, increased teacher pay.), unwanted children (see protected sex as well as solutions: streamline and reduce the costs involved in adoptions and extended families taking over parenting in the cases of deceased or unfit parents.) And there are no abortion advocates rather there are people who advocate for a woman's right to control her own body.

@Bobby9 A parasite does not have to be at war with the host. Many are symbiotic, like the bacteria in your guts.

@273kelvin well said. I do tend to go overboard on my responses. 😜

@Bobby9 source please.

@Bobby9 OK let me be a bit more specific how about a source that uses the word we are debating which is parasite. Your source only talks about competition and cooperation. Neither of which disprove the idea that the fetus which is not viable outside the mothers body needs the mother to live. Many parasites operate the same way. Hence still the fetus is a parasite until viable to survive outside the mothers womb. As for the contention they need to be different species my source referencing the Angler fish is an actual example of what you claim (with zero supporting sources) to be impossible. You also seem to be with your source equating a scientific reality with emotion and the idea that pro-choice people use science to somehow hold a bias against the fetus. Pro-choice people live in the real world were often hard choices, less then ideal choices are required.

@Bobby9 When and if you post a source that actually includes the word parasite in its text then I may concede the point. Yours does not. You seem content to refer to imaginary biologists and refuse to actually use your own mind to argue your point. Again the definition of a parasite is a organism that cannot live without feeding off its host. A fetus until a certain late stage in its development cannot live without feeding of its mother. That is scientific fact. If you refute that tell me why. As a fact it supports my contention that a fetus in that time frame fits the definition of a parasite. Even though you refuse to actually take a position beyond telling others they are wrong let me venture a guess that you oppose the word parasite not for its scientific definition but rather for the negative social viewpoint the word triggers in many people. Like all living things parasites serve a purpose in ecology and that purpose is amoral. It does what it does without care for our human projection of morality. The fetus does the same it simply wants to live. So does the mother but she gives up part of herself so her child may live. A sacrifice we men cannot make in the same way. And a sacrifice that should not be required of her by the state or by men. That is why I am pro-choice and pro-reason.

2

For me it is my knowing that government organizations tend toward corruption incompetence. Too often we learn of another person falsely imprisoned, and some have been executed.We cannot trust that a person is guilty of the crime. And even when they have done the deed, it may be that they are not accountable so as to be killed.

And of course, the death "penalty" is not a deterrent.

@Elganned Exactly. Thanks.

2

Any woman who has had an early miscarriage (in medicine, known as a 'spontaneous abortion' knows that the 'product' is not a baby but a zygote - looking like a blood clot.

2

I have never known anyone to be pro-abortion. There are lots of folks who believe, like I do, that it’s nobody’s damn business what an OB doctor and female patient decide is the right thing to do. As concerns the death penalty, it seems to me that state-sponsored murder is really just vengeance in search of justice; I don’t trust the morals of our species in general, so I don’t believe we should be making such a ‘final solution,’ to coin a phrase.

I am absolutely pro-abortion.
There, now you know someone.

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