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WHO NEEDS GOD? --

Does religion appeal primarily to broken people? Could the argument be made that religion, and by extension, God, be an answer for all the scared, ignorant, lonely, insecure, depressed people who feel helpless in a universe that doesn't give a shit about them?

It makes me wonder because most people are messed up in one way or another. Hell, I'm as broken as the next guy but I'm not willing to buy a plainly false narrative just so I can fool myself into feeling better.

Wealth and success doesn't seem to be the deciding factor; many rich, powerful people are still religious. Nor is higher education given that a fair number of doctors, engineers, and scientists also practice their faith in God. Is it that these rich, successful, highly educated people are also scared, ignorant, lonely, insecure, and depressed?

So if we're all broken to some degree then what makes the difference between those who need a God to pray to and those who don't?

Sgt_Spanky 8 June 14
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34 comments

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0

I think rich people see God as the spiritual dimension of Maslow's self-actualisation. I'm told it came in with Protestantism and is now most obvious in the prosperity gospel. They must mean he brought it into relatively recent Western thinking because there must have been people like that since forever.

9

I've been wanting to reply to this all day, but couldn't until I got home and could
get on the laptop.

We can be broken and still remain logical and reasonable.
I do it every day.
😀

"We can be broken and still remain logical and reasonable. I do it every day."

As do I. It's what made me wonder why so many others can't seem to and turn to self-delusion as a crutch.

I also am broken but have gotten better ... learning to think and learning to develop some self respect has helped. We are strong at the broken places.

6

That is a great question! As I think about my years spent in religion...I would say, I was scared, lonely and broken. But, as I began to pull away from religion, I became stronger! I see this happen with some of my peers over that time. So maybe religion captures us, and supports our weaker side, until the time it wears out...as certain personalities transcend their brokenness?

5

I believe the majority of believers are victims of brain washing. Lots of kids are hearing bible stories and praying before before they can read. . .

Yep, before I could read, I was forced to chant that ugly "prayer" - "Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the lord my soul to keep, if I should die before I wake, I pray the lord my soul to take" - that scared me, being told that I might die in my sleep and wake up in hell. It was awful to do that to a four year old. But I had to obey and chant that awful prayer or get a whipping.

5

We are all " broken " one way or another , and the degrees varies . Its odviously among the less educated or among the abused or among the unfortunate , that gods and devils will thrive . But not unusual for gods and devils to thrive among the educated ones too . In these cases , self centerered personalities , fear of death , and need for belonging are greater than " logic " or education / facts .
Life is hard apparently . I don't judge anymore how anyone copes w their shortcomings or w the daily dose of " wtf ". I used to . When younger and " I know it all ". As life is happening and realization that " I don't know jack ", my empathy grew . The reason I look down at religious of all types humans is not that I find their ways of coping w life ridiculus . Whatever . Is Bcz their beliefs , ALL RELIGIONS , are harmful to humanity . Especially women and children . It's like a disease , a sick patient that I can't help . And not only I can't help him / her , but I am watching him / her spreading disease . It kills me .

4

Your question only makes sense if you're asking if religion appeals primarily to unusually broken people, which is a bit of a subjective judgment.

Certainly fundamentalist Christianity has a big value proposition to the demographic of People Who Regard Themselves As Especially Broken. The vast majority of the testimonials I heard in my youth followed the general pattern of:

  1. I was addicted to drugs / alcohol / sex / cruelty / general profligacy

  2. I hit some kind of personal bottom

  3. Someone explained my problem in terms of being without god and led me to god

  4. My life was transformed and now I'm a respectable family man / church leader

I've previously shared this general pattern in my oldest brother's life in the early 1960s. I've seen it in many, many others.

Here's one that I specifically remember being presented to me in the 1970s in the form of a low-budget drama produced by Gospel Films:

[daveboyerministries.com]

The most-cited such testimonies are just like this: the subject is literally on their way to commit suicide when they just so happen upon a little church or a kindly Christian who saves them from their wicked intent.

4

I come into contact with educated, wealthy people daily and the reasons you suspect are true to a large extent - rich, successful, highly educated people are also scared, ignorant, lonely, insecure, and depressed.

4

I have personally known of and had dealings with people who are 'broken' and have turned to religion only to become even further damaged and 'broken' as the end result.
Speaking here as semi-retired Psychologist, Religions are a kind of drug of addiction and sadly there are no rehabilitation treatments/facilities readily available for it.

I also have met people who are beaten down by hardship and turn to religion just to get more beatings. Very tragic.

4

So there is a difference between "God" and organized religion. These are separable though many can't. I understand because of the damage that organized religion has done to so many but I don't necessarily agree that this then a priori demonstrates that there is no "God".

Not trying to cause a flame storm or whatever but I have to confess that in the past year I have decided that I am not an atheist. I remain firmly an agnostic.

uh oh. backsliding.
you know what they say. i'll just have one drink this eve. and then it becomes two & another alcoholc/atheist is lost.

@callmedubious So the the reasoning is simple. I have no reason to assume that "God" exists but I also have no reason to assume that "God" doesn't. Other than the human conception of "God" is extremely naive and simplistically pitiful.

But ... (And I preface this with a bit of my background - I'm educated as a Ph.D. physicist. I have thought deeply about the why and how questions since before I could even talk...)

Neither the universe itself (why is something rather than nothing) and the phenomena of the beginning of life are not adequately explained - even with our most modern sophisticated science. And further, we really are not even that close to understanding either question adequately. Anyone who says we are is lying to you.

My conjecture - and I freely concede that is totally a conjecture - is that the true is stranger and more fantastic than either theist or atheist can comprehend.

Finally, I have observed that humans prefer to align with groups. Thus atheist s align with atheists and theists align with theist and then vigorously defend their positions even to the death. This is non-scientific and has no justification. Science seems to show us that we should keep and open mind and question even our deepest beliefs. Even if it is, dare I say, atheism.

@marmot84 ,
i approach the god question from a simple perspective. i unequivocally do not not believe that there is a god that could give a shit (if gods shit) about the human race.
now, could there be superior beings out there that are to us as we are to protozoa?
that i don't know & don't pretend too know.

3

For many, it has been passed down from generation to generation. It's all they know and they were taught not to question it. Not so much of being broken but being disillusioned and misguided through the years.

3

In college I had a dick of a professor in a religious studies class(history major requirement) who required we write a 10-15 page paper about why God was real. I wrestled with this topic and in the end chose answer the question from a similar point of view of where your asking this question.

The paper of course had to be fully cited so I read several books on the subject and the general scholarly concept comes down to the brain of humans and how it is hardwired in such a way as to lend it's self to the belief in God. The simplest way to explain it is : ever notice how people tend to see faces in random shapes (man in the moon, tree bark, toast) it's because our brain is hardwired to search for faces as a survival instinct, the majority of people believe in God because it's simply easier to do so, it's a left over instinct from our more primal days. Despite our evolution, changing the hardwiring of the brain takes a long time, as a species were getting there, it's just taking time.

Also indoctrination added on top of the brain hardwiring.

Sounds reasonable. How'd the paper do?

@Sgt_Spanky I don't honestly remember

3

I believe that we are all broken. I say this because we are not perfect and what we do could have had a slightly different outcome most of the time. If your life had more misses than hits you might turn to gods for guidance. An alternative to this would be that you were raised in a religious system. Brainwashed early on because your family was religious. Even so, my all-time bothersome statement from religious people is "then who do you worship?" Why do we think we have to worship anything?

3

I agree - religion appeals primarily to broken people but also to the power-brokers and politicians who adorn a cloak of pretence to assert more control over the masses - evident over the last few hundred years in the Christian and Islamic world. Unfortunately even Buddhists have fallen for this deceit as the powers that be in Myanmar have demonstrated recently.

As Leonard Cohen said:- [paraphrased] - "There is a crack in everything - that's how the light gets in". The light could be the joy of nature or an inspirational poem.... or for some, other mythical inspirations...

Some folk think they need to believe in a greater power (for some reason or another) - should we as agnostics or atheists discriminate against such ignoramus theists who have in desperation surrendered their fate to an omnipotent creator of their own construct? I don't think we can - we can just reassure with anecdotes of how amazing the universe is that science is showing that we live in.

No one including theists, atheists and agnostics has all of the answers to those Universal questions... perhaps we all need to be prepared to be more open to probabilities and possibilities and not prematurely close opportunities for learning.

3

Michael Shermer has results from research he conducted as part of his affiliation with Skeptic magazine and Skeptics Society. The results are published in his book "How We Believe". Surveys were sent to members of the Skeptics Society and separately to a random sample of the public from a polling company. Respondants were asked to answer a number of questions about their belief in God and religion as well as questions about their income levels, education levels, their religious background, etc. The results from both sets of surveys showed the same trends even though the magnitude of responses was much greater among Skeptics Society members than the general public (which was understandable and expected). Concerning education, the result showed a negative correlation between the level of education and their belief in God meaning the more education an individual had, the more likely they would disbelive in God and religion. Among scientists, the greatest degree of disbelief existed even though the same trend could be observed - those with greater education were more likely to disbelieve.

3

I don’t know if I’m defining “broken” the same as others, but I don’t think it’s as much that as it is education. And I have a very broad interpretation of the word “education”. My father graduated high school, but never went to college, and he was one of the most intelligent people I ever knew, because he read. He read just about anything he could get his hands on, and his knowledge about several subjects was much broader and deeper than mine, and I’ve got two degrees. I think education makes the biggest difference when it comes to falling for the illusions and lies of religious thinking.

3

Lots of questions but IMO the wrong approach. The deep questions about existence in reality as a consciously aware entity are staggering in their implications. Let me tell you, there’s a lot more to this situation than meets the eye.

As an analogy think about gravity. Gravity is a very complex subject, not easily understood, but there are some ideas and theories. Can you imagine someone saying, “Does the quantum theory of gravity appeal primarily to broken people? Could the argument be made that quantum gravity theory, and by extension, quantum fields, be an answer for all the scared, ignorant, lonely, insecure, depressed people who feel helpless in a universe that doesn’t give a shit about them?”

No, such questions would not be asked. If a person wanted to take part in discussions about quantum gravity he would have to address the actual issues—say something of substance that applies to the subject at hand.

Even if you are a professional psychiatrist, psychoanalyzing your debate opponents will get you nowhere. There are some very real questions at hand that deserve serious attention.

3

To answer your question tersely, it's tradition.

I have been wrestling with this for quite some time. My kin are so devout and happy in their beliefs that i think it doesn't serve any positive purpose to try and convince them otherwise. They are hardly militant about it and its more like tradition than an actual belief system to them. I don't however hide the fact that i am skeptical but i don't go around challenging everyone to a debate.

What has surprised me is that my empathy and humanity has been quoted to say that I am in fact a better 'muslim' than most others? I think this is their way of keeping me included in the family tradition and dare I say... think more of me than what the religion demands via apostasy. I think thats a small victory for me 🙂

I know I can only do that because I live in the UK and in a muslim country i would already be dead or keeping my lack of beliefs to myself. But it is none the less a beginning for doubt and question to spawn in my little network.

Nardi Level 7 June 14, 2019

If it's so ingrained that your family simply accepts it without issue then what is unique about you that you chose to reject it?

@Sgt_Spanky My christian mother ran off and left me with my muslim father when i was a toddler and my father then remarried. So I was neglected to an extent and my step mother was focused on her own children giving me the freedom/neglect to question without pressure to conform. I guess I got lucky.

@Nardi That's sad. I never understood why second wives so often fuck over the kids from the first marriage. Mothering is mothering, period.

@ReadyforaChange Thanks I didn't turn out too badly though 🙂

3

Religion appeals because most folks are spoon fed from infancy. When you've been taught religion every day of your life it becomes part of you.

gearl Level 8 June 14, 2019

It was spoonfed since childhood to many of us and we still became atheists so what's the difference between those who need a God and those who don't?

@Sgt_Spanky Some of us come out but most don't. From my experience it's a lot harder for someone who has their entire life entwined in a religion to get out than for someone that doesn't have their family and friends pushing them back in. A person raised in religion many time just doesn't think about it unless an event happens that forces them to confront their beliefs. I wasn't broken as a Christian and I was a true believer. I was broken for a time when I got out.

3

religion is too widespread for us to generalize about broken people. i know a lot of broken atheists too. in addition, not all religions are the same and thus while the appeal of having a deity on which to rely to a greater or lesser degree is the same, the details are not, and the details are important too. furthermore, not everyone, even within the same religion, is equally religious, or interprets that religion the same way. so there is no way to generalize about any of it. i do not see jimmy carter as broken, ignorant, lonely, insecure, depressed or any of the rest, and he is a deeply religious man.

g

jimmy carter: deeply religious or deeply deluded?
and i like the man. most honest & most dignified since Ike, imo.

@callmedubious he is not deluded about anything that matters in the real world. he certainly isn't broken.

g

@genessa ,
if he prays to his god to fix a broken & doomed species; he is certainly deluded.

@callmedubious i don't know what he prays about. i know what real-life action he takes. i stand by what i said.

g

2

i would really question how many "rich, powerful ppl" really believe in a god. i doubt if a proclaimed atheist could ever make it very far in politics today. so i don't, for one minute, believe all these RPP
are really believers.
i further doubt that there are many rich, powerful IGNORANT ppl.

i can think of one....

g

@genessa ,
"lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated"
i doubt if rump could have become a billionaire if he fit the above dictionary meaning.

@callmedubious but he is and he has become... maybe not a billionaire, but at least a millionaire. anyone can do it. all it requires is a millionaire daddy.

g

From what I have read in the press (...I don't read the Murdoch and the like purveyors of bullshit), an atheist in the USA or certain other countries in the developed world is a third class citizen and has little chance to hold influential positions... In Australia we had our first female Prime Minister not long ago who was rolled very quickly by the christian & mining lobby - she confessed to not believing in god and pressed for a carbon tax - a double sin in the right wing superficial christian world bent on extracting all the mineral wealth without accepting any of the consequences (..."God will look after us"....)…!

2

The difference is the willingness to suspend belief to examine all the facts.

2

Does seem to predominant in that group

bobwjr Level 10 June 14, 2019
2

Only about 7% of (elite American) scientists are religious (the number is actually more like 40% for scientists as a whole, and this is only dealing with American scientists)... which, in my opinion, is excessively high. I think the answer to your question is weak-minded people don't have what it takes to face reality head on. And by "weak-minded" I don't mean dumb or stupid; I mean "mentally fragile" however that term may apply. But that's only half the formula. The other half is weak of character. When those two are combined, religion isn't far behind. Fortunately, some people are able to strengthen both their mind and their characters and overcome the need to believe in fairy tales.

EDITS IN PARENTHESIS FOR THE SAKE OF ACCURACY - UPDATE IN BOLD FOR TRANSPARENCY

Wow! That’s a real downer on people. ‘Weak-minded’ ‘mentally fragile’ ‘weak of character’. Perfect character profile for Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Terry Waite, Thomas More, the countless people we don’t know of being persecuted for their faith around the world right now.

Not sure where you got the 7% figure from either. Did you make it up or do you have a reference?

@Geoffrey51 Ghandi was a racist, MLK cheated on his wife several times, Terry Waite was a muddle-headed meddler and publicity-seeker who allowed himself to be used by Oliver North and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and Thomas More was a cruel ogre, hellbent on burning Protestants. So yes, your examples included. You don't have to agree with me, but my opinion is my opinion and I stand behind it. Also. don't ever accuse me of making shit up. I'm not a Christian. Here's my reference for the 7% figure:

I should have stated it as "Elite Scientists", but otherwise, my comment stands as is. I'm not a big fan of humans, and religious humans are at the bottom of my list of favorite people. So, to all those around the world that would choose to be persecuted for their faith rather than abandoning it to avoid persecution, that's on them and they too fit my descriptors, in my opinion. I am far more concerned with atheists being persecuted for NOT believing bullshit and being killed for being more strong-minded and intellectually honest than their murderes.

@Kafirah Wow! That’s angry! My response was to weak-minded, mentally fragile and weak character. Nothing to do with religion or ethics.

And I WILL call out anyone that makes broad statements with no reference because it is no different to circular referencing in many religious texts

@Kafirah Unfortunately the stream isn’t working at the moment. Can you please send me the name of the contributor so that I can look up theirs credentials and research method. Thanks

@Geoffrey51 I'm not angry at all. I find it fascinating that you read me reasserting my position and defense thereof as angry. Was it my strong language? Perhaps... But if it seems like bullshit, I'm going to call it like I see it. Bullshit is bullshit. So, if I understand you correctly, you are gonna call out everyone who doesn't provide a reference for anything technical, such as easily googled statistics? That should be... tedious and time consuming. Good luck with that. However, I guarantee you'll be given a reference whenever you do that to me. Because I refuse to make shit up now that I'm an atheist. Reality is good enough for me without bullshit and lies.

@Geoffrey51 "Neil deGrasse Tyson on religious people" is the title, and it's on the fvszs channel.

@Kafirah thanks for that.

@Kafirah Came across this remark by Tyson. Looks like he is saying that their faith didn’t get in the way of their science

Neil deGrasse Tyson said that around one-third of "Western/American scientists claim that there is a god to whom they pray" and they're "fully functioning" scientists.

Gray, S. 2014. Neil deGrasse Tyson: "Enlightened religious people...don't try to use the Bible as a textbook". Salon.com
Retrieved 15 June 2019 <[salon.com];

1

I have met women who suffered horrible physical and sexual abuse in childhood, who became extremely religious. I can understand why they cling to religion. But so many of them join churches that are anti-woman. Very sad.

SKH78 Level 8 June 16, 2019
1

Right on... Once you are an atheist, you see the ignorance... It's all over the world...

1

I think it's mostly indoctrination..

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