we work together, as owners of the business we split it's impossible to not know some of each others business, it's not something I talk to her about usually. life is messy at times, this is one of those times

@JesseBoren oh boy

Right, I'm not saying it's everything but it's the difference between being friends and lovers

@JesseBoren Exactly. There are women I was longtime friends with that I would trust with my life and really care for, but with their body type, I would never feel any attraction, tho I really loved them emotionally.

I've gotten to the time in my life, and old-er age that the most crucial characteristic to me in a companion is their kindness, intellect and/or artistic inclinations, after that intellect rules. If someone is a Frumpette, for instance, and he's gorgeous, he's still obnoxious and offensive...and out of my dating pool.
Body size, baldness, color, droopiness...ha ha, has ceased to matter to me. Looking for compatibility. And, still looking...

she isn't into women that I know of

I think it's one of those things people say because they think it sounds right to say it doesn't matter. People can lie to themselves as much as others also but it's impossible to honestly say it's not a factor at all in my opinion.

@JesseBoren I again, appreciate your candor. Those on Agnostic who read me are well aware that even tho I am brutually honest, I don't bow at all to being PC when it stands in the way of truthfullness. I welcome the scorn of the knee-jerk PC crowd when I speak uncomfortable truths....People need to realize that a big part of the resentment, distrust, and sometimes hatred between the sexes in the dating game is because of the disconnect between what people say, both online in forums as well as in dating profiles, and what they actually think and want in their real agenda for dating and a possible relationship. Of course, feeling overly entitled and projection are also factors. That disconnect makes people really frustrated, cynical, and bitter, and rightfully so. Being more truthful can only help gender relations in the long term and at least at the macro level, if not also the micro.

Many women on Agnostic will say men's body types and amount of hair on their head are not factors, but frankly, I think most of them are lying, either to themselves or others, as I have talked to plenty of bald men with average bodies who seem to have plenty going for them as dateable, but still get little interest on dating sites. The only possible explanation other than dishonesty of women on Agnostic is the women on here being extreme outliers compared to women on paid dating sites, which is possible, but unlikely in my opinion. I guess the only way we could really test that would be to find out what % of women on Agnostic who say these factors don't matter are also active on paid dating sites. Even then, it would only give us a small glimpse as the sample size would be tiny compared to membership of the paid dating sites. That's one poll I am not eager to post........

@TomMcGiverin Im well aware of the bald thing obviously. It's definitely a factor, try having your face tattooed, haha. Older women won't touch you but young girls love it. When I say young I mean too young, girls in their early 20's. I also don't look like I'm in my 50s so in person I can date much younger women but online younger women see that 5 and it's over. You are the creepy old guy. You are right that most problems are because people lie a lot. I've found this site hard to take because there are soooo many fake people trying to be totally pc so they don't offend anyone. Fuck that, I want people to know who I am. What good does it do to start a relationship on a big pile of lies only to waste time finding out they aren't the person they pretend. I've wasted vast amounts of my life doing that shit, I'm tired of it. If that's what it takes to attract a mate it's not worth it. Like I said before humans lie to themselves as much as they do to others so for some it's impossible to honest. They are terrified of anyone seeing their true selves so they hide it as much as possible. We who chose this way get called assholes but we should be recognized for the true bravery it takes to put yourself out for the whole world to see honestly. It takes a lot of bravery just to be honest with yourself.

@JesseBoren No shit...It's nice if you can be honest with both yourself and others while still be liked and seen as a good person, but if I have to choose, I would rather be seen as an asshole and honest than as dishonest. I take great pride in my honesty and always have.

I totally support you on being open about who you are in the dating scene, altho it does limit your opportunities some, tho not with most of the women you really want to meet in the first place. Like Literate Hiker said a while back, you can lie about yourself in your profile, but either once you meet the woman or soon after that, the truth will come out soon and you will be rejected, so what's the point of lying just to gain a meeting with someone who will soon reject you anyway for lying? What does that prove or accomplish, besides that you were successful at getting to meet them? It might be a nice ego stroke, but the feat won't last very long in making you feel good about yourself.

And you're also right that being honest with yourself is challenging because, at least at first, facing the truth about yourself is stressful and anxiety-producing, kind of like living without the comfort most people have of their self delusions which make life less scary for them. Like walking the tightrope without the safety net..

@TomMcGiverin

Thought you might both appreciate this story.

I'd met a very attractive, super fit guy at the gym when I was 21. He was nice to me and we joked around a lot, but he never asked me out, which was a huge blow to my ego.

I was pretty cute back then and had many suitors... this guy was just not interested.

A few months later I saw him in the neighbourhood walking hand in hand with a woman who was at least 300 pounds. He was really into her, and it was so cute that my heart melted and my ego was immediately restored.

I just wasn't his type. As much as he worked out and looked like Adonis, he liked very large women!

Sometimes it goes the other way too.

@JesseBoren It's funny Jesse. I have always been brave enough as an adult to be very honest, but at the same time, I have always been pretty conformist about my appearance, at least my hair, and body. I have never been interested in getting any tats, but even if I was, I would probably not be brave enough to get any visible ones outside my clothes. Same with hair, until the last few years, I was not brave enough to start shaving my balding head either. So I am a paradox, brave about my opinions and feelings, conformist and timid about my body and hair..

@Athena Of course it goes the other way, but probably only very rarely. Human behavior, like everything else, has a wide spectrum and there are always outliers in any distribution of outcomes or traits. It's a cute story, but it doesn't really refute or change the general trends of behavior and preference. I can go into any bar, restuarant, concert or other public place where there are lots of obvious couples, and only very rarely will I see a so-called mismatch in a couple where one is, say, an 8, and the other is even a 6 or less. Couples generally tend to match up where there is only one or two points difference, at most. And studies have proven this over and over.....

@TomMcGiverin

That's true. It's for that reason I was so shocked and hurt that he wasn't interested in me. But I like the happy ending.

@Athena Glad you had a happy ending. I've been waiting a couple years now for one with me. More likely than not, I will die before I get one. I'm up early this morning because I will be marching in a local parade with the other Bernie supporters. Should be fun and entertaining, because I live in a suburb full of Repubs and conservative Christians. So I'm sure we'll be getting lots of trash talk and nasty gestures from the Trumpers on the sides of the street.I enjoy baiting them....

@TomMcGiverin

@Athena Thanks for the support. I'll be thinking of you while I smile and wave at the Trumpers while muttering under my breath what fucking assholes they are......

@TomMcGiverin ,
hair on head? i doubt if that is important to most women.
Jeff Bezos has no hair on his head but even without his 70 billion he would probably do OK with women.

@callmedubious Trust me, it is important to many women, probably anywhere from 40% to 60%, depending on the age group. And, unlike Bezos, I don't even have my first million yet (and never will have), much less my first billion. I doubt Bezos would do ok with most women if he wasn't rich and famous, based on personality and overall appearance, including baldness.....

@TomMcGiverin ,
i think it depends on what age group you're talking about.
once women start to think about having a family & security the full head of hair is not at the top of their list. although, i suppose a full head of hair is an advantage. i wasn't really follically challenged until my late 30s & by that time i was out of that game.

@callmedubious Trust me, even at my age, if you don't have a lot of money AND seem like you will gladly spend it being someone's meal ticket or sugar daddy, you had better have a full head of hair and an athletic body to attract any women who are above average or even average-looking. That is what I and several other comparable men my age from my area have learned from online dating. You either need above average money and the willingness to spend it on a woman, not just having financial security, otherwise better have good looks. You wouldn't know because you've been out of the game too long. Things are a lot more crass and shallow nowadays.

I've dated lots of different body types as well. It's nothing I was really conscious of until I got divorced and started using dating sites. I learned by being married for 25 years that when she gained weight I was much less attracted to her physically. I don't think she ever knew it since it didn't change the way I treated her. That's when I really started to understand how important it was to have that attraction when trying to go for a long term relationship. They are hard to do when things are perfect but trying to settle for someone that's not really what you want may be doable short term but I think it's doomed long term. The worst part is you are tied up with that person and may miss your dream person while you are messing with them. I know this because I have lived it and have to live with the consequences every day. I'm open-minded to the people I interact with so I haven't put up any walls, the right person can change the equation totally. My ex uses every chance to criticize every I do so I don't give a shit what she thinks, just curious to others opinion. I was expecting to get blasted really. haha Thanks

@JesseBoren Your comment speaks volumes, is brutally honest, which I really admire and respect. I also think most men share your view, whether most women on here want to hear it or not.....If the woman you are with long term stops taking care of herself by choice, gains a lot of weight, and you are no longer sexually attracted to her, you are faced with a choice of being unhappy and unattracted the rest of your life if she won't change. In that situation, the choice is up to the individual person, stay or leave. I haven't ever faced that type of situation really, as my late wife became involuntarily terminally ill and I took my marriage vows seriously as well as continued to love her emotionally to the end. I have run across one or two people in online sites that have openly said they are seeking someone to date as their partner lies in a nursing home with dementia. That was not and would never be my choice, but I fully understand and respect their choices there. There is a balance between loyalty as long as the other person is also making their effort and doing their best, but there is also the cold fact of having only one time around in life and not spending it with many years of predictable misery or unhappiness due to a bad relationship.

@JesseBoren

I think anyone who blasts you might be triggered by a personal rejection or their own insecurity. You weren't name calling or being disrespectful.
Some people close themselves off to every look that deviates even slightly off their usual type. That's what I was referring to. For example, a man who only dates women shorter than he is may find a perfect match in someone taller.

*What you're talking about is something different.

I understand completely and it applies to attraction in both men and women.
These are any physical traits that relate to, or are associated with lower energy, bad hygiene, poor health or a general lack of self care.

There are exceptions to this. I've seen (once or twice) very large men and women dance, bend and twist in incredible ways, who could rival any 100 pound gymnast, but these people are very few.

Thanks, she tries to set an age limit for my dates also, I was ignoring her for a decade before we divorced so I don't really care about what she thinks. lol

oh, she is trying to fuck with my head for sure, that is her favorite hobby. I'm not close minded to dating others but if I'm picking on looks like how most dating sites work I know which ones I'm gonna pick before we start

@JesseBoren That sounds perfectly normal to me. Don't let her mess with your head - she had that opportunity and she should now have lost it!
You do you.

There is nothing wrong with a preference. We all have them. Doesn't mean we are entirely inflexible.

well we have 3 kids and share ownership of a business together so interaction is a daily thing. I never felt insulted, she isn't capable of insulting me. I don't take anything she says seriously, I know where it's really coming from. The fact I'm not in her prison anymore is good enough for me. I learned to ignore her little jabs after the first decade. One day my last minor child will grow up and will have no more hooks in me. It's not easy to free yourself when someone has been planting hooks in you for a few decades but I'm slowly getting there. It doesn't really hurt anymore so it's so much better now. She is just bitter because she doesn't have control anymore.

I have always liked long hair on men-2 of my exes had hair longer than mine. Also always been attracted to taller men who are slim or athletic. 5'10"-6'5" - Dan is 6'5". Does not have long hair lol.

Clever.

Thanks, you are correct. just curious what other thought

you are correct, she doesnt get a say but she will try

@JesseBoren just remember she's an ex for a reason

@lerlo well we have 3 kids and share ownership of a business together so interaction is a daily thing. My ability to ignore is a superpower though, she doesn't get to me anymore

@JesseBoren glad you got there...of course you could stop telling her who you go out with, or you could give her the same grief about who she goes out with

@lerlo I don't discuss who I date with her but the people we work with know generally what's going on in everyone's lives here and she tries to get all the info she can, she has a boyfriend now

@JesseBoren sounds fun

@lerlo yeah my life sucks at the moment but its better than when I was married to her

@JesseBoren You're a better and stronger man than I am to continue to work with her in a business. In fact, many couples who work together in a small business end up divorcing because of the effects of the business relationship on their marriage.

@maturin1919 I was trying to clarify I was using the term in the more legal sense of intent to harm, as opposed to sensitive choice making, aka a discriminating palate