A lot of people here have arrived from religious backgrounds so I was wondering what your feelings are about abortion. If you had one would guilt follow you around for the rest of your life? What would it take for you to make that decision? I guess mostly women will answer this. Does the fetus have a soul?
For me, pregnancy is no guarantee of life, spontaneous abortions happen, late term ones do, rape would for sure be a reason to have one but there are also other situations in which I would basically because I don't believe there is a god to answer to after death.
I don't support abortion as a means of birth control but I do support a womans choice . I know one girl who had 3 abortions and she should have had her tubes tied , WTF . A fetus is potentially a human being . I'm proud of my daughter who has always been on the pill .
I would say almost nobody uses abortion as birth control... that is a religious and conservative talking point but has no basis in reality.
No, a fetus does not “have” a soul. That’s putting the cart before the horse. No organism has a soul.
IMO if there is a soul at all it is a universal soul.
Life is a continuum, proceeding according to the laws of nature, and it’s in perfect accord. The life and death of a single organism is of little significance. Of infinite significance however is conscious awareness, which is primary and universal.
A thousand acorns might fall from an oak each year but there’s not room for them all to become trees. If even one becomes a tree that is more than enough.
I like the allegory of the Oak tree. We as humans have decided sort of collectively that nothing should die. Not us, not animals, not plants. But nature cannot support the life of every single thing that sprouts or is born, so many must die. That is one of the fundamental tenets of religion, if you must die (yes, you must!) it promises you continuous life, but on another level. For many, it is the only way they can get through the idea of their own limited existence. For Atheists generally, we accept our limited roles on Earth and do our best to leave fond memories of us behind, or for some, just don’t give a shit and enjoy the life you have!
I see abortion as an issue regarding bodily autonomy. And I absolutely think it is up to the woman involved to decide what is best for her and her life.
For me personally, I have never wanted children, so I would absolutely have an abortion if all preventative measures failed. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) have no problem with abortion. The cruel and unrealistic idea that "abortion is murder" was invented in the 1970's as a fundraising issue by fanatical evangelicals, then co-opted by unscrupulous politicians as a wedge issue.
This is a very interesting topic, as well as a touchy one. I agree with your stated opinions and would also add that illnesses might also be a reason to have one. As a cis man I will never have to make this decision towards myself but in a hypothetical relationship I might answer your first question. No, not guilt just a deep and profound sadness for the loss of what might have been but with the understanding that it was the right choice for the situation.
According to the god nuts, a baby gets a free pass to heaven, right?
So an aborted fetus (if you can call that a 'baby'--I don't) would go directly to an eternity of bliss. No living a life with all its temptations, so no risk of going to hell.
So we'd actually be doing all these "babies" a favor by aborting them.
We should be aborting MORE babies if that's the case, not fewer!
We have a terrible overpopulation problem.
I'm for asking pregnant women to volunteer for the heaven-assuring procedure. This may only apply to Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but that's still a lot of souls being saved from the dangers of actually living a life full of sin and depravity.
Abortion "problem" solved.
My granddaughter became pregnant at 17. I asked what sh wanted to do (she was not talking with her parents t that point). She decided to keep the pregnancy because she could not destroy something alive. She graduated high school but has not gone to college and does not work. She is now 18, has a one-year-old and is a happy camper, but living on the government doles because she cannot afford daycare. Her boyfriend is supporting them both and is starting to become frustrated. I did not agree with her position, but it is hers and hers alone to make.
I'm not from a religious background - I was raised very much aware that there was a such a thing as religion and that I am Jewish (I still consider myself to be Jewish, despite also being an atheist), but also that science has provided far more convincing explanations of how the universe came to be. I do not believe that a foetus has a soul; nor do I believe that any other person or living thing has a soul, because I do not believe that souls exist. However, I understand that women who don't share this opinion might well find undergoing an abortion to be far more morally problematic than I would, and I feel for them.
This guy thinks that’s up to women to make decisions on abortion.
The only opinion I have is it is a woman’s choice.
"a god to answer to" ... and in that tiny statement rests the entire problem with abrahamic religions and most conceptions of religion in the west.
Not all spiritual beliefs involve some judgmental being on high punishing those who don't meet his (usually) lofty moral standards. In some the word god is a pronoun vice a proper noun and such a mythical being is little more than a role model people try to emulate for success in life. For example - if you desired to play QB 100 years from now then Tom Brady might be a god. Or if you are an officer of the law maybe Wyatt Earp. Or if you're a lumberjack then Paul Bunyan. In many cultures of the east this is the concept of a god. Not someone who looks down on you for lapses in judgment according to some standard they set.
By that same token life is viewed different elsewhere for many also. This idea that 2 mortals copulate and somehow instantly produce a being with an eternal soul is a mythos of Abrahamic origin as well - dwelling mostly in the minds of westerners. Much of the world views our inner selves as consciousness that exists before human conception and extends beyond the life of this frail shell. To them that is part of science more than part of religion. It just happens to be science we have yet to comprehend. We see and conceive the concept of consciousness and believe we have found bits and pieces as "proof", but in the end we have no concrete evidence of either an Abrahamic soul or an eastern self. So both views are a matter of conjecture and both, as such, are equally ephemeral and carry equal weight as theory.
I leave you with all this to say that I believe in the eastern view on consciousness and as such abortion is just a lost opportunity to know another person. That is what is lost, not some eternal soul. To that extent it's sad as in a potential lost friend or relative. But the extreme condemnation from moral judgment isn't relevant to me. I find it silly.
Let's take emotion out of the decision and consider the practicalities.
I have and I don't have an ounce of guilt. I do not and will not ever see a clump of cells, a zygote, or a fetus as a person. When it gets to the point that it's a baby that can thrive without extreme medical issues its whole life, outside of the mother's body, that's a different story.
To make the decision? Do I want to be a parent and responsible for another human for the rest of my life? Do I have the time, energy, emotional and physical health, and most importantly, the financial resources?
Fetuses have no soul. Children have no souls. Adult humans have no souls. "Souls" in the traditional terminology.
Wow, that's a heavy and very sensitive topic... even outside of religion. Hopefully I can put my thoughts out here without sticking my foot in it big time.
We all pretty much have to decide what is best for ourselves and drawing a line at dictating other people's choices and needs should be held in serious check. I feel that it's only a potential for life that slowly grows stronger throughout the pregnancy but is not fully realized until after the birth. Until it can survive outside the womb it is still a part of the woman's body and what happens with it should be her decision.
For me it's a medical procedure to be decided between a woman and her doctor according to her needs. If she feels a need to include the man involved then by all means, her choice. I would think it a good idea to include him for most cases either way but still, her body, her choice. Making those choices for others is just wrong on too many levels to count. It is really not an easy decision to make and to be questioning or putting pressure on someone who needs to make such a decision is just cruel.
As for the soul, no one really knows or can prove one way or another what it is, if it's real and if it were real, when it would actually enter the body. Older traditions and beliefs mostly say after it's born anyway, as it takes it's first breath. In some eras and cultures it was not until a child was blessed and often after a certain age because infant mortality rates were high. It seems now that the medical has that more under control and survivability is at its best, people feel the need to argue, and dictate, and control the choices of others and use religion or spirituality as a control factor for it.
Abortions should never be done lightly. There are some women who never want children and there are some who should never have any. For I would guess 99% of women do not take having an abortion lightly. It is something they have to live with the rest of their lives. The same with giving birth you have to live with it the rest of your life. A woman needs to think it out. Can they afford children at this time in life. Can they take care of the child during pregnancy. I have heard of some who are drug addicts and keep having children and most come out with a disability because they will or can not stop using. I am against forcing any woman to have a child.
In a perfect world there would be no abortions, spontaneous or otherwise. Every pregnancy would be wanted, every fetus would develop normally, and no woman's life would be put at risk by her pregnancy. But, this is not the nature of things. There are many reasons why a woman makes that difficult decision; and, the choice should be hers.
In my catholic days I would have felt guilt and would most likely not have one. As an agnostic, I would not feel guilt at all. I am choosing to remain childfree and were an accident to happen the thing is getting aborted. Getting pregnant would take for me to make that decision. The soul is a religious concept. There is no scientific evidence for a soul. We do not even have a proper definition or conceptualization of a soul to be able to study it. I believe personhood does not begin until birth, however, barring health complications, I do not think 3rd trimester abortions should be common. In the 3rd trimester the fetus' brain and nerves are developed so much that the fetus can feel pain. Prior to that, it would not feel a thing.
In a perfect society birth control would be taught in schools as part of health classes and parents would also counsel their children in birth control. Also birth control medicines and other contraceptives would be available to everyone. They aren't because the christian right doesn't want that type of stuff either taught or available. Just say no to both drug use and sex. On the other hand they are long gone after the baby has been born. I have yet to see them out there begging women to have the baby so that one of them can adopt it. And I've also had experiences with some of the people who are totally against abortion until their daughter ends up getting pregnant - the story changes quickly then....well at least for them because well you know there were extenuating circumstances. I believe none of us are in any position to judge another.
If you don’t believe in life after death, the whole idea of a soul is kind of mute, isn’t it?
I think, religion aside, abortion is still a very personal topic. I personally have no objection to (or guilt about) abortion before there’s a fully functioning brain and nervous system; at that point, there is the sensation of pain. So that’s my personally established boundary.
I also believe in exceptions even to this for extraordinary reasons, and those reasons should be decided by the woman and her doctor — and no one else.