@Freedompath “Truth” is slippery. Everyone in an argument thinks he is on the side of truth. Maybe the trick is to rise above verbal conflict by understanding both sides.

I would also point out that not all Christians are the same and that many of them do not consider you an abomination. I question also that you are homing in on Evangelicals when Catholics and others are basically the same.

@WilliamFleming I learned that there are Evangelical Catholics. McConnell is appointing judges to our courts from the Federalist Society, which is an Evangelical Catholic supported org! (The bar association could not even approve of most of them, for that position.).
I agree that all Christians are not the same. But, from my personal experience being in the mist of so many in my 80 yrs (nearly), there is limited critical brain function. And, they are not bad people. But, if needed in a complicated situation, these people will judge black and white, and cannot assimilate all the grey area that is present in any matter! It is like they are ‘stuck’ or will just ‘settle’ because it is too complicated to delve deeply into, certain matters! Therefore their judgements are flawed...not always, but on the ‘whole!’
In my 15 years with private duty nursing, I have been privileged to spend quality time in the personal space of the wealthy and the not so wealthy, and the brain works the same in all humans, just education and social order distinguish each.

@WilliamFleming I don’t believe ‘truth’ is a ‘slippery slope’ for me! I do know that each person has their story and that I believe, needs to be heard. But, I could never accept ‘evil actions’ in their stories as truth! I know the difference in ‘universal truths’ and truth that hangs in the details...that keeps evolving.
I also don’t believe that Evangelicals or any religious people believe that I am an ‘abomination’...but I have found them to dissect me through the lens of their religion and not see me as a ‘fellow traveler’ on this road of life. They dismiss me, as a person which is hurtful!

@WilliamFleming ‘understanding both sides,’ I have never been able to understand ‘the side,’ where a person can kill their spouse, their child, their neighbor or perfect strangers! That is a brain disorder of the worst kind, and only scientists who are studying this problem can kinda see why it happens! And there are other behaviors that fall under brain malfunction, like my deceased schizophrenic sister, who’s brain never normalized in her 78 yrs!

@Freedompath I see what you mean and I agree. I’ll never agree with some opinions and I’ll never approve of some actions. The best I can hope for is to understand the people involved.

As an analogy, suppose there is a rabid dog loose in the neighborhood. That dog is a threat, and it would be a duty to shoot if on sight. Anger or hatred would be completely misplaced. An understanding of the disease and how it causes unwanted behavior—that is all that’s needed.

I do think that there are some positive aspects to religion in general, and that some religions are very beneficial.

@WilliamFleming I am not thinking of people and animals with the same understanding. Fear always comes before anger anyway...but humans who have developed properly, can proceed from their initial fear, and logically assess a situation and make a ‘best action’ judgement. However, improperly functioning brains cannot do that! Sometimes, anger will be felt! Like today, after I swallowed my fear, from trump ordering that strike to kill the Iranian Commander...now I am angry! This fool is going to put our military in harms way, and now all of America is in danger! First thing this morning I had a text asking ‘what the hell has trump done,’ from my friend in Japan! This is angry making, but first came the fear!

Why? Because in religion I was taught to listen to church leaders and obey them without questioning anything. As an atheist, I question everything. Do my actions harm others? If so, I must change my actions. Do my actions do good to others? If so, I must strengthen them and do even more good.

The thought of the VICTIMS being believed to go to hell while the perp gets a get out of Hell free card is sickning. I do mean physically.

Did you mean a’living hell,’ for some of the victims. Some were murdered and some survived! I did see that ‘doc’ but long ago, and do not recall details.

@DavidLaDeau Yes, it is very twisted.

I know some who would get around it by saying that no one that evil would ever be truly sorry. Well, how would they know?

And, their theology says that if they truly repent they will go to heaven. But, even if such a person could not be truly remorseful and ask Jesus for forgiveness, their theology also says that good people, who spent their lives helping others, but who never believed the Jesus story, are in Hell right along with the serial killers, Hitler, etc. So no matter how one looks at it, their beliefs are messed up.

Thank you for helping me to develop my thoughts further. Now I would add that "just forgiven" is to relinquish reponsability.

Your response reminded me of how mystified I was, during my ‘religious years,’ when people responded to Jesus with complete conviction...like they knew him personally (another reminder of people saying, ‘I have a personal relationship with my Jesus)!’ Now, I am suddenly thankful that I felt out of the loop, ashamed and embarrassed back then! When I hear that now, I feel uncomfortable...and start to wonder about their trustworthiness! I work to keep an open mind, but my past experience has tainted my trust factor!

...then Jesus came and changed all that! He he he...

Jesus was a sinner....@Freedompath

@nicknotes wasn’t everyone in the Bible a sinner? Now the New Testament, claims Jesus ‘was without sin!’ Do you have some first hand knowledge that could dispute this?

@Freedompath The Christian claim is that Jesus was a sinless perfect sacrifice to remove sin.
1 Peter 2:22
22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;

I think Jesus was a sinner and therefore not qualified to fulfill the Christian dogma on purity.
John 2:14-15
And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

Those that sold animals were providing a service to those who came a distance and needed an animal to sacrifice in the temple.
The money changers changed money for people who came to worship and pay the tithe and only had foreign money.
Their functions were legal and sanctioned by the levitical priests.

He drove the money changers out of the temple by beating them with a "scourge of cords." Assault and Battery.
He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. Destruction of Property.

Wasn’t this behavior by Jesus a sin?

Jesus also sinned by not marrying.
About 6 times in the Bible, God affirms the commandment…"Be fruitful and multiply,
and fill the earth” This one of the 613 laws in the Torah that all Jews were supposed to obey.

Sin is a transgression of the Law.
1 John 3:4
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Since Christians believe that Jesus is a king he was REQUIRED to obey the Law.

"Now it shall come about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself a copy of this law on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes, that his heart may not be lifted up above his countrymen and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or the left, so that he and his sons may continue long in his kingdom in the midst of Israel.” Deut 17:18-20

Jesus also affirmed the requirement to obey the law.
Matthew 23:1-3
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe.

Jesus never married, he broke the law, therefore he sinned.

Jesus sinned against his brothers
Read what Jesus said speaking to the multitude and his disciples.
Matthew 5:22 (New American Standard Bible)
22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Notice how Jesus condemns those who are angry with their brother.
Notice how Jesus particularly condemns those who call people "fool."

Now let's look at how Jesus behaved in Matthew chapter 23.
Jesus became angry with the Scribes and Pharisees calling them hypocrites seven times. Technically all men of Israel were his brothers. [Deut 3:18] He was angry with his brothers.
"" You fools and blind men! "" Matthew 23:17
""Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. "" Matthew 23:27 IMO a major insult.
"""You serpents, you brood of vipers "" Matthew 23:33 Now Jesus is really getting angry and laying on the insults.

You be the judge.
Did Jesus follow his own advice or was he a hypocrite?
Did Jesus follow his own advice or did he sin against his brothers?

Jesus lied.
Luke 13:31-33 (New American Standard Bible)

31Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, "Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You."

32And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.'

33"Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem.

The Pharisees warn Jesus that Herod wants to kill him.
Jesus tells the Pharisees to tell Herod that he would be in the area casting out demons and curing illness. [A lie]
But Jesus journeys on that day to avoid Herod's murderous intention.

Jesus deceived people with some of his teaching.
Mark 4:10-12 (New American Standard Bible)

10As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables.

11And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,

12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

Was Jesus deceiving some people by teaching in parables that they could not understand so that they would not be forgiven and saved?

Here is something to consider....
John 7:2-10 (New American Standard Bible)

2Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near.

3Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing.

4"For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world."

5For not even His brothers were believing in Him.

6So Jesus said to them, "My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune.

7"The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.

8"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come."

9Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.

10But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

Didn’t Jesus lie to his brothers?

Jesus Violates the Sabbath Day

Chapter 5 of the Gospel according to John tells the story of a man who had been sick for 38 years [John 5:5]
The man was lame and lay on a pallet. [I suppose it was a like a litter?]
Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.” [John 5:8]
Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk.
Now it was the Sabbath on that day. [John 5:9]

Since it was unlawful to work on the Sabbath, [Exodus 20:8-11] we have several violations of the Law. Jesus healed on the Sabbath and Jesus caused the man to carry his pallet on the Sabbath. Jesus caused this man to sin and thus Jesus violated the law. [Leviticus 19:14]
By causing the man to sin he put the man to shame. [Leviticus 19:17]

The Jews find out and confront Jesus. [John 5:10-15]

John 5:16-17 (New American Standard Bible)
16For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
17But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."

Jesus flat out admits he was working on the Sabbath. You have to realize that the lame man had been sick for 38 years. Couldn’t he wait one more day? It seems like a blatant attempt to instigate a fight with the Jews. Jesus wronged his fellow man by his speech. [Leviticus 25:17]

According to the Law, Jesus was a sinner.

God demonstrates how important it is not to work on the Sabbath with the following story.
Numbers 15:32-36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; 34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

If the man gathering sticks on the Sabbath was EXECUTED for working on the Sabbath, the sanctity of the Sabbath must have been important. Jesus didn't think so.

But it is incumbent on all under the Law to obey the Law
Leviticus 19:37 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
37 You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the Lord.’”

The Law had one standard for all. No one was to get special treatment.
Leviticus 24:22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the Lord your God.’”

Jesus was a sinner

If your pre-teen son left his family, and was away for three days, and he didn’t tell you that he was leaving or where he was going, would you punish him for being disobedient?

Would you consider your son’s behavior rebellious and not honoring his mother and father?

Examine the following situation from the Bible.

Luke 2:41-49(New American Standard Bible)
41Now His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover.
42And when He became twelve, they went up there according to the custom of the Feast;
43and as they were returning, after spending the full number of days, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. But His parents were unaware of it,
44but supposed Him to be in the caravan, and went a day's journey; and they began looking for Him among their relatives and acquaintances.
45When they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem looking for Him.
46Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
47And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.
48When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You."
49And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?"

So what do you think of Jesus’ behavior?
Did he honor his mother and father?
Was he disrespectful, rude, and rebellious?

@nicknotes I guess that you have it figured out! That was too much like a long past Sunday School lesson, that I have little interest in, now and was always suspect of!

So well said that I might have a secret crush on you now! Shh, don't tell anyone.

@DavidLaDeau ...well the secret just escaped!! Thanks though!

I had and still have family like that! A niece that I am fond of...sent me a New Years text...quoting scripture and noting where it is found! That was all, it seemed so sad to me, she has no thoughts of her own to send to me!

Remember Thomas Paine was an atheist. Some others of our founders only went to church when they had to. Are you sure they ‘believed there was a creator behind everything?’

@Freedompath This was a little before my time so I don't know what all the framers believed. However, deism could fit with an atheists idea as it doesn't specify who is the 'creator' and that creator's influence on others.

Thank you for your kind words.