I want to say that I am an agnostic, and I don;t need/want anyone trying to tell me what I "really" am, and will block such people if they make themselves a nuisance to me.
I will not say "There are no gods" because that cannot be proven. A being intelligent enough to create what we see as the universe would be so far above us if it wanted it's existence to be in doubt we could certainly neither prove or disprove it.
There may be a "clockmaker" who created the universe with elements keyed in to create life eventually, and the "finely turned universe" argument really has not been disproved set it in motion and watches it operate for reasons we can't imagine. Again, a being that could create the universe we see would have to be beyond our comprehension.
So I am an agnostic, and don't need people coming at me telling me "No you're actually..." STFU!
I've had experiences in my life I cannot, obviously, "prove" that lead me to believe there may be more to our existences than the physical. Is it wishful thinking? I can't prove it isn't.
There are things I'm much more certain of, tho.
While there may be a creator and a 'Purpose" to life beyond what we know or can know now, I am pretty certain that the judeao christian god is not the creator of the universe and the purpose of our existence is to either grovel at his feet for eternity or burn in agony for eternity.
Most mainstream religions are human social constructs meant to create ands impose order, to give the "right" people an advantage and to put the "wrong" people at a disadvantage.
Thus most religions elevate men, oppress women, justify crimes against the "infidels" and so on.
I'm glaring at you, christianity and islam. Both these religions are clearly human constructs and meant to create hierarchy and control.
Christianity is as best we can determine a creation of the roman empire meant to quell rising jewish rebellion after crucifying countless jewish dissidents failed to do anything but incite more rebellion.
Islam was clearly created by an arab merchant and pedophile as a cash cow after he saw how successful the catholic church was at raking in the profits...
Also ancient judaeism now is known to have made a big deal of the asteroid that we now know took out the cities of the plains, most famously soddom and gammorah.
That terrible thing happened and it had global impact as we know know after being tipped off by some ancient babylonian astronomical tablets, and naturally when huge amounts of flaming hot brimstone fall from the sky and destroy several major cities primitive people knowing zip about real astronomy, meteors, orbits, etc, will assume it was a deity, and assume he had a reason to do it. So the stories of how S&G were destroyed (BLAME THE GAYS!) and how people could keep the big deity from doing it to them.
|And of course today we still see christians and muslims blaming the gays for fires, earthquakes, diseases, etc.
Christianity and islam are just militant offshoots of judaeism that spread not by the force of their truth but by the force of their violence.
No, I will not say there is no creator and nothing beyond what we scientifically call life. I have reasons to feel there may be.
Hell, I think my current life may well be some sort of result of being a real prick in a past one. I can;t prove it, don;t try to tell people to send me monye and do what i say because of my belief, it';s just something i pretty deeply feel.
But christiasnity, islam, other major religions mostly concerned with telling people how to vote, live, etc, sorry, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
Religious programming typically begins in early childhood, both the overt and the subliminal programming, it takes time to undo a lot of that damaging programming. You may find yourself felling anger and feelings of betrayal from love ones who lead you down this garden path with the best of intentions.
I gave up imaginary friends for good when I was 13 years old, it still took a lot of undoing and unlearning but be patient with yourself and give it time. You are already way ahead of the curve compared to most people because you are questioning instead of blinding accepting like the Sheeple of the world.
As an agnostic I agree .The audacity that atheists are so certain about something that is absolutely beyond their comprehension is both laughable and proof they are no more logical than theists who also think this way.Also this is a site called AGNOSTIC .COM . If theists are labeled trolls here why would not any one with atheists beliefs also be designated as trolls .Just sayin LOL
Excuse me? I am an atheist. I do not BELIEVE any gods exist. I do not KNOW whether or not a being, or beings, that we would call a god or gods, exist. Maybe one does, or some do...it simply cannot be known. However, I see no reason to believe that any do.
I will not advise you on what you should believe, but I will advise you to learn the "niceties" of writing such as spelling and grammar if you want people to read your long rambles. Not only will it make the epistles easier to read and understand, but it will give more credibility to what you are claiming/explaining.
@Donotbelieve I am sometimes accused of being a Grammar Nazi and my response is "Yes, your point?" Expecting someone to try to decipher long, rambling, hard to understand posts is expecting too much. Hey, I get paid to read that type of writing!
Letting off 'steam' rarely earns you 'e-steem', but when the preasure builds up, sometimes you have to vent or pop.
@Fernapple Letting off steam, rhetorical or original, does not exclude writing in a manner that makes the points clear to the readers.
@Donotbelieve If I had not just graded 14 rough drafts, I would be happy to tutor you! However, you are doing fine already.
@Donotbelieve They were papers from grad students. One spelled "Chaucer" as "Saucer." I almost cried.
@Bushshaker If I posted that 2+2=5, 8x8=102, and that the U.S. Constitution was written in 1011, people would not only correct me but some would ridicule me. And yet, some people will accept very poorly and unclear posts (and other venues for writing) and be upset when others point out such writing.
And I can understand--I read poorly written essays for a living. I can decipher the meaning of most poor writing. When people post in public places, I can point out that they need to improve, eh? Just like people would comment on my poor math skills.
"I will not say "There are no gods" because that cannot be proven."
Then I will; there are no gods. I can say that with certainty because there's no evidence to support their existence either now or in the past. Real things leave behind evidence of themselves. That's how we know dinosaurs existed despite the fact that they died out tens of millions of years ago. When there's no evidence something exists or ever did, it's because it doesn't. That's why there's no evidence of fire breathing dragons either.
This is why agnostics are atheists who just won't commit.
@TheMiddleWay Theists are claiming the existence of something for which there is no evidence, I'm claiming the non-existence of something for which there is no evidence. Not the same at all. One is a reasonable conclusion based on logic, the other is just wishful thinking.
@TheMiddleWay Let me explain something that should've been clear already. There is no evidence for something that doesn't exist. That's the proof it doesn't exist. If it did, there would be some evidence to support it. No evidence of any kind means it doesn't exist.
There is no evidence of any kind whatsoever for gods. Their non-existence is proven.
And I should care about what you think or believe, why? BORING!!!
It never ceases to amaze me that people such as the OP think that others truly care about their personal issues. Even more, that they expect people to care enough to read their almost indecipherable ramblings. At least be creative and amusing.
The comments here are laughable! Some of y’all need to relax and maybe smoke a joint!
Those who try to tell me I am an Atheist as opposed to Agnostic strike me as being just like the christians . . . . . they claim something they cannot with 100% certainty prove, and then try to badger others into buying their bull shit story. The ones who do this also almost always assume that when you say "god" you mean something like the ones invented by men, so they are so busy jumping to conclusions that it takes 30 minutes just to get the dumb asses to the point where they understand that you are not talking about that kind of shit. So I say, between the christians and these folks, the difference is relatively narrow.
Most atheists I know will not claim to "know" there is no god, or are no gods--it is about belief.
An atheist simply does not hold the belief that any gods exist.
Sure, some claim to "know" there are no gods, but most don't. It is something that cannot be "known" or proved, or disproved."
I find that some people who identify as agnostic, think that a person saying they are an atheist is making a claim of knowledge when it is about belief.
I am an atheist because I hold NO belief that any god--of any kind--exists.
I am also an agnostic because I recognize that it simply cannot be known.
As I have stated in other posts, I think it is possible to disprove specific gods (such as the god of the bible).
@Archeus_Lore. I agree.These are the same narrow minded atheists that drool over the Epicurean Paradox which is based on a god invented by man as you so intelligently stated.There are an infinite amount of possibilities other than this that these nitwits have the audacity not even to consider .
@Joanne How does that differ from the christians, who say they have "faith" that god exists? "Faith" and "belief" . . . how does that differ? The christians are quick the tangentialize the minute you start asking them to "prove it", that is, prove what they assert. Atheists are on the exact same footing, because they make statements the same way christians do, and back it up with nothing, just like the christians do, and the word itself, "Atheist", breaks down to "no god", or "not a believer in god", while the christians use the word "christian" to mean followers of christ, i.e. those who believe in and have faith in christ. There are a lot of similarities there.
@Archeus_Lore No! The definition of atheist is simply one who LACKS BELIEF in any gods. It is NOT a claim of knowledge or any kind of profession of faith.
If an atheist claims to "KNOW" there is no god they are wrong in doing so--it simply cannot be known. Just as a believer cannot claim to "know" there is a god. It is a matter of belief, or non belief.
I am an atheist because I see NO REASON to believe that any gods exist. It isn't that I "believe" none exist--I lack the belief that any do. There is a difference.
Science shows us that there is no need to insert a god when explaining the workings of the universe--so, why insert one?
The simplest explanation is that energy has always existed. Energy becomes matter, matter becomes energy. No intelligence, intent, will/volition is required. If one makes this energy a god (a being or consciousness with intent/will/volition it complicates things). And, as I said there is no reason to do this.
To play the devil's advocate, (pun intended) one could argue that all matter is energy, our brains are energy in that sense, and, the universe itself is energy, and it so happens that our brains are the most complex thing known in the universe next to the universe itself . . . . and, on top of that, physicists base what they know about the universe on what they can observe of the universe, which is indeed, only a very small fragment of what really exists. There is no more reason not to do it, as there is reason to do it. Nonetheless, it does not take the Atheists out of the commonality they have with the christians.
Who do you think is going to tell you that you can’t call yourself whatever you like? Frankly not me, but you seem to be expecting some of us to disagree or argue with you, judging by your angry tone. If you say you’re an agnostic, and are posting on a site titled Agnostics.com why do you think that will prove confrontational? Atheists won’t tell you that you’re wrong unless you tell them that they are. You will find that we are all in agreement with you on the malign and undue influence all religions play in politics and human activity, so no argument from us on that count either. So...to whom exactly are you addressing your remarks?
I respect you and your beliefs as I do all people whether they're religious or not. It is unfortunate that almost anywhere you go there will be someone to challenge your beliefs. Do not be discouraged. In the words of William Shakespeare " To thine own self be true. "
I made it to the your first command, of what we are or not supposed to do.
I would imagine it's exhausting trying to micromanage complete strangers, in cyberspace.
I believe in Occam's razor. I believe in reason. I am agnostic because I do not know with absolute certainty that this god thing does not exist. I am atheist because I don't believe it does.
Occam's razor leads me to the conclusion that since everything that can be explained by the existence of a deity can also be easily explained without one. I too have seen things that I can't explain, I don't jump to the conclusion that those things are magical in nature. In many cases I've seen how unreliable human senses can be, how easily they can be deceived, and how willing we are to deceive ourselves.
Personally, I don't give a damn what you call yourself. I don't care if you believe or if you don't, but you seem to me to be desperately trying to cling to some aspect of the faith you may have previously had. Maybe you are afraid to face the overwhelming probability that there is nothing waiting for us "on the other side." Again, I don't care either way, but your long angry rant to justify something so trivial is somewhat disturbing.
If you want to block me, why would it bother me?
You may believe what you like and call yourself what you like, but if you are going to start out pugnacious, expecting a battle, declare that we KNOW what happened to two cities that we don't KNOW for sure even existed, tell us in advance to stfu when in fact (at least in ny experience here) agnostics call atheists arrogant for presuming to KNOW there are no gods a hell of a lot more often and more viciously than atheists call agnostics fence-sitters, then at the very least you are going to get a run-on sentence like this one, and maybe worse.
OK thanks for making us aware
I suggest you instead join a site that is for people who care about your moronic bullshit, although I haven't seen any site called imbeciles.com, but then again, there might be one in the "cloud."
@FrankA, @richiegtt, @tiredofthis1 oh sure, who could resist such an original invitation? But the answer is no.
Well, the site promotes itself as being for agnostics, atheists, skeptics... It is not just for those who identify as agnostic.
@FrankA I agree, there are atheist on this site, just as everywhere, who can be assholes; but I have to say, I have come across some assholes who identify as agnostic as well.
I should add, I have no problem calling someone out if they are being an asshole...I just ask that we who identify as atheists aren't all lumped into that category.
I like the way you think.
The nature of ultimate reality is so far over our heads that the very idea of “proving” the existence or non-existence of God is preposterous.
Hell, we don’t know what existence is. We don’t know what we ourselves are.
“I've had experiences in my life I cannot, obviously, "prove" that lead me to believe there may be more to our existences than the physical. Is it wishful thinking? I can't prove it isn't”
Same here, continuously every second, except not “may be”, but “is”..
I will say there are no gods and you cannot prove Me wrong. You can say there are gods but cannot prove yourself right in any meaningful way. That is sufficient for me to be an atheist as opposed to an agnostic. It has been thus for hundreds, thousands of years so I have the confidence of a person who accepts that the sun will rise in the morning because it has been doing so since long before humankind even existed.
A) However you self-identify, that's up to you. But your "having a reason to feel there is a creator" and your "deep feeling" about past lives is fairly inconsistent with agnosticism in general.
B) I don't have time to correct your historical misconceptions about the origins of two of the world's largest religions, as I'm sure it would be futile in any case, and just draw me into an extended argument.
C) Out of idle curiosity, did you really expect to write a post like this, with the tone you take, and have a bunch of atheists and agnostics reply, "Okay, whatever you say"?
I'd greatly appreciate you taking a short bit of time to correct what you term his "historical misconceptions" While realizing his takes on the 3 Abrahamic religions requires vetting, I do find them intriguing, and wonder if there is at least partial truth to them? I want to learn, not argue.
@Rossy92 Well, okay. Since it's you.
Christianity was not "invented by the Roman empire to quell the rising Jewish rebellion". Christianity began as an apocalyptic Jewish cult among many such cults. The Romans actually persecuted Christians for 3 centuries, until, in 313, Constantine legalized all religions. He finally converted to Christianity himself, and it eventually became the de facto religion of the Roman Empire. The later church was certainly Romanized, but it can hardly be called a Roman invention.
As for Islam; today, we would very likely consider Muhammad mentally ill. After all, he was a 40-something merchant with a habit of going off into a cave to meditate, where he believed he started talking to the archangel Gabriel, who delivered him the revelation that the practices of polytheism were wrong, and there was only one God and His name was God. Not unlike Jesus (if Jesus actually existed), he slowly gathered disciples around him; but since his was a message of conquest rather than turning the other cheek, long story short, he did not end up being crucified. The notion that Muhammad was trying to emulate the Catholic Church (which he may not even have known of; he would have been in contact with the Byzantine Empire) and was simply in it for the money is very cynical. He may well have been schizophrenic, but he probably wasn't a con man. There are easier ways to get rich than starting your own religion and taking over a quarter of the known world.
@Paul4747 Thanks. Very interesting. Is there much evidence that Constantine's conversion to Christianity was more an opportunistic ploy, rather than a more sincere belief? Confusingly I've seen it written, both, that he converted in 312, and that he converted on his deathbed in 337?
Concerning Muhammad, is it not true that the Koran takes many cues, some say it's plagiarized, from both Judaism and Christianity? If not him specifically, is it not plausible that those who might have aided him in the development of the religion, and especially after his passing, might have taken cues from the Catholic Church?
@Rossy92 Constantine converted at about 40, but was only baptized on his deathbed, under the impression that this gave him a free pass from anything he had done in his life. He mistook deathbed confessional and last rites for deathbed baptism, evidently.
It's absolutely true that the Quran plaigarizes a lot from both earlier books, but, Muhammad being illiterate, it's hard to say if he did this intentionally. At best, I think, he was repeating stories he remembered hearing over the course of his life. Again, as I say, he was quite probably schizophrenic to a high degree, as well as very charismatic. The nearest modern comparisons we can turn to would be people like Jim Jones or David Koresh, who accumulated large followings.
Of course, the Quran was assembled after Muhammad's death from the sayings his followers "remembered", fragments written down during his lifetime, and oral histories, so it's debatable how much was his words at all... although it is probably more accurate in that respect than the NT. (The amazing bit is how God reveals things to illiterate tribesmen all alone in Middle Eastern caves, rather than just appearing to everyone all at once and settling things.)
@JohnnyQB As an agnostic I would say If one does not necessarily believe in an alternative then this is a belief