Agnostic.com

38 26

A different perspective;

Is the fight against COVID19 worse than the disease?

Is it better to "get exposed" and develop immunity...or should we just wait 18 months - indoors - for a vaccine?

Bill Maher interviews Dr. David Katz.

Robecology 9 Apr 26
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

38 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

5

I'm a senior citizen. I rather wait at home for the scientists to develop a vaccine.

5

Flattening the curve prevents hospitals being overwhelmed and not enough ventilators with lower survival rates

bobwjr Level 10 Apr 26, 2020
4

If you think taking on the 5.6% death rate with possible permanent damage to vital organs while probably killing your elderly loved ones is a good plan, have at it. I just can't even listen to this.

Agreed! Herd immunity is developed over generations, with significant losses in the meantime. Considering how well they did against common European disases, one wonders what Native Americans feel regarding such pearls of wisdom espoused in this interview! Let's all become utilitarians and take our seniors up to the mountains and abandon them (i.e., ubasute). The dog whistle for 'the cure being worse than the disease' and 'let's re-open America' is loud and clear--those who don't make it are expendable!

4

A lot of what he says makes sense; but his statement that we want to get this and get immune, is problematic. According to the WHO, it isn't a certainty that those who get it will be immune from getting it again. I certainly hope this is not the case. And, also, people at less risk of getting sick or dying from it can still spread it to others who are more vulnerable.

I think this is going to be around for a long time; and a one-time vaccine may never be possible. It may be that it becomes just a fact of life and we will have to alter our behavior if we want to protect ourselves, and those more vulnerable around us, as much as possible.

As someone who has asthma issues, though minor when compared to others, I will be proceeding with caution. I may never again go out in public without wearing a mask. I will keep distance between myself and others. I will try by best not to touch my face; and I will wash my hands thoroughly when I get home.

We need massive testing so we know how wide spread this is and then it can be decided how to best proceed; but our dear leader has failed us in this.

This is the most cogent response to the debate. Thank you Joanne for calling out the only possible path i.e. testing.

4

I watched this the other night. He brings up a few valid points. Our immune systems need something to fight on occasion or it gets weaker. We are sheltering in place not to stop us from ever getting the virus... In fact 80% of us WILL eventually get this. The whole point is to flatten the curve and to delay when we get it as we cannot have the hospitals overrun. Supposedly... 80% of people who get it will either display no symptoms or mild symptoms. The bad thing is... You just don't know how your body will react to it.

4

Saw this the other night. I really like the seemingly practical, seemingly intelligent, middle of the road perspective to all this.

3

All of this sounds wonderful; in theory, anyway. But the example given, Sweden, is a country where there is more concern for one's fellow man than exists here. Swedish society focuses more on the "we" than the "me." So they may more carefully follow social distancing practices than I think will occur here. My worry is twofold:

  1. Many people are going to go "back to normal" without face masks or practicing social distancing, so the virus will have a chance to come back with a vengeance; and
  2. Since the virus is very contagious, every nimrod who runs around like a maniac because they need to get their hair cut, their nails done, go to the bar, etc., is putting several OTHER people at risk. If the "I want to be free" crowd could only get sick THEMSELVES, then I would say, "Go for it! Knock yourselves out!" (I'd also prefer that those people sign a document saying they will forgo medical treatment if they get the virus, but that's another discussion.)

I guess what I am saying is that the people who say "I have to go back to work! I have to feed my family!" appear to me to be the folks who are least capable of understanding the risks. And if that causes a resurgence of the virus, ALL of us will pay for that.

You praise Sweden, but do not speak of China. I do hope the failure to include China in discussions when we do international comparisons of covid response is not a result of sinophobia. Why exclude them? Can we NOT acknowledge their success? I don't mean to accuse you specifically, maybe it's more of an accusation of the video. I never finished watching it because everything he was saying I disagreed with.

3

I saw this clip, and was not impressed with Dr. Katz. “Lifestyle medicine?” WTF is that? Too much marketable woo for me. When he’s on target, Maher can be pretty insightful, but I think he goes off the deep end on occasion, flirting with anti-vaccers and ill-defined “alternative” medicines.

3

States frontline workers are also wanting states to push to reopen soon? Who is he talking to? In my state, frontline workers had a counter protest to the "reopeners". I think giving a blanket statement of frontline workers opinion is highly irresponsible of him. He can only give us his own anecdotal information. He has given a verifiable untruth there when he states "frontline worker's want to reopen". He CANNOT speak for all. (Please note link below with counter protest) I don't appreciate this level of inauthenticity from someone of his professional medical stature. In the interview discussion derides "playing politics" then, proceeds to do just that! UNREAL! He is a faux newser too!

[channel3000.com]

And another article regarding counterprotesters to "reopeners"
[usatoday.com]

3

The WHO put out a statement yesterday that reinfection was still a distinct possibility and they doubted their evidence of infected people being immune -- let alone being not infectious.
Being too impatient to wait for reliable knowledge about the epidemic will drag it out and will make it worse for for everyone. Here is a graph from 1918's Denver flu data as to what happens when you try to back out too quickly. We live in a sensationalist, media driven, society but the virus isn't listening -- it will follow its own course.

I found the key to this problem in the US is our unwillingness to forego individual liberty and FOLLOW RULES for the purpose of public health. We focus on individualism too much, we all want to be rebels and in so doing will bring our own nation to it's knees and cause the deaths of our own fellow citizens.

@Flowerwall Nature has to control our population somehow because WE won't.

@rainmanjr No! Don't accept that approach. We have to do a better job ourselves.

2

We wait until we actually know that we get immunity. We do not know that at this point.

Also the speaker does not suggest any way to protect the vulnerable in the meantime.

2

Cite one study that shows having it once gives you immunity! In fact, several prelims have suggested you can get it over & over and/or it changes like the common cold virus, so you get another version.

2

When I was a kid, way back when, I caught chicken pox. Everybody in my class at school got it as did my two brothers. The whole school was exposed to it. It's just the way it was.

As an adult we know more about it. It's a virus. A herpes virus. It can reoccur as shingles, a herpes virus. The chicken pox virus never really went away, it just hid out. No vaccine, no cure. They've got something that "helps" but I don't think "cures".

Suppose this virus has some of the same characteristics? It's there, it hides out, it comes back, maybe as something else, but never really goes away. If it's like that, we won't be able to hide from it forever.

Seriously? Have you ever discussed the topic of disease spread with a Native American? Dozens of illnesses that were easily overcome by all but the most infirm European nearly wiped out the Indians. Herd immunity requires many generations of exposure. If you hit a group of people with a disease when they have no antibodies and no history, you are essentially signing a large number of death warrants. Maybe this was the way in ancient times, but in a more enlightened period, why? We must limit exposure and shelter in place, while developing countermeasures.

Exactly! 👍🏼

@p-nullifidian I'm not sure what you said has anything to do with me catching chicken pox in grade school. Or chicken pox and shingles being the same virus.

No where did I say, "hey let's all catch this virus and move on". This virus and chicken pox don't appear to be the same virus, but both are out in the wild and are waiting for us to be infected by them.

Yeah, I know how European illnesses wiped the natives out in America. It was sad. And it wasn't just one illness, it was a lot of different illnesses.

2

I agree with what he's getting at, if what he's saying is true.

But, he's also saying, people in poor health are going to die and to keep that from happening, they're going to need to be isolated. That would include people who have poor lifestyles, are overweight, have high blood pressure or other underlying causes that they may not even know about and would otherwise lead full lives.

We can't really hide forever.

2

I feel that there is some validity in his statements. After all we do grow up with germs and diseases. That said we need vaccines against many of these diseases. Personally I feel that we need to be temperate in our response, too often our knee jerk reactions cause as many problems as they solve. Either way there must be space for dialogue and ideas, after all we used to have outside toilets, until someone challenged the model.

thing is as a new disease with such a long incubation makes it tricky

Very true, which is why I'm a bit worried by all the 'armchair' experts. That said, we do need to either accept tht this is the new normal or figure out a way to deal with Covid 19. This will not be the last global pandemic, I'm pretty sure of that!

@whiskywoman that's it true,but I see this they other way around.i feel it's a set up and a new way to trick people

2

I see that even Bill Maher cannot get a haircut now either.

That will be hard I guess lol

2

I'm very confused about something; perhaps someone here has some insight?

There is, as yet, no guarantee that infection will produce immunity.

We are trying to develop a vaccine.

Yet, a vaccine works on the principle that infection (even artificial, toothless infection) produces immunity.

See the problem here? Shouldn't we first know if immunity is even possible? Or should we just charge ahead based on hope? (I'm not saying we shouldn't, by the way, but...is that actually what we're doing?)

The simple answer is we just don't know. There may be limited imunity... like getting a flu shot every year? There may be no imunity at all like the common cold only deadly - we just don't know. There is a possibility for no safe vaccine? The only truth we have is we just don't know and that is where we are at right now... do you want to gamble with your life - go ahead - but please don't gamble with my life...

"See the problem here? Shouldn't we first know if immunity is even possible? " Yes we should! BEFORE we put more lives at stake.

One of the vaccines they are working on, mRNA, works on a different principle than what mentioned.

they are trying to find out it takes testing and apparently other countries are doing what should have been done here all of this takes time can't just do it in a few weeks

2

Wait. The death rate is still climbing fast. The hospitals are over worked, lack of equipment, lack of hospitals in some areas. We need vaccinations. The earth can stand a little breathing room from all our fuel use, it needs a break to be able to sustain us.

2

Are people daydreaming and are we in our right minds? COVID-19 is similar to the flu in many ways. Are we building up immunity to the flu and are there vaccinations to "cure" it? No. Why do we think we can get a coronavirus "cure?" Chances are that the virus will be back regardless of what we do. I don't think this thing works the same way VD does.

2

Nobody in his right mind believes that we are going to be quarantined for 18 months or until a vaccine is developed.

Until we look at Wuhan, China and use the fingers one ONE hand to count 3 MONTHS and the city is reopen. Mall is reopened (I mention mall because it could be a big problem for virus transmission, obviously its OKAY)

@Flowerwall the City is Wuhan, reopend fully on April 8th. But still there are precautions there that we don't have, like free instant testing stations in most districts, here in the great America we haven't even tested 10% of the population. The chinese have disinfecting squads that go to malls, train stations, bus stations, mass transportation, and even then the citizens are still reluctant to come out and do their normal life as before.

@Mofo1953 And people will be reluctant to come out here as well and even more so if we don't get our act together and have a thorough, appropriate, across-the-board response to this crisis. We can either take a firm stance and promote health and trust in the populace, or be weak and wishy washy and inadvertently allow disease and foster further reluctance to resume full normal, activity when it IS safe to do so ( obviously NOT NOW).

@Flowerwall obviously. My post didn't specify a timeline, just thought that waiting until there was a vaccine, which might not even happen, or 18 months was a ridiculous point to even ponder.

@Mofo1953 My previous response did mention a timeline, 3 months in Wuhan. We need to figure out how we can get close to that?

@Flowerwall mine didn't but it's like comparing apples and oranges, we're far from being at the level of taking this shit seriously like China. Just saw in the news that there was a house party in Chicago where 1000 people attended and another where the Louisiana pastor defied a court order to hold services again and the freakin church was full of morons without masks!

@Mofo1953 Fines! Penalties! Enforcement! Citations! Make it so that rule breakers have consequences. What are other nations doing in this regard?

@Flowerwall Where did you get the idea that USAmericans largely care what other nations are doing? 'publicans hate the UN or any suggestion that we do something like another nation is doing. God's country, you know. Personally, I think what's best for our planet is the thing to hope for and that would be for USAmericans to take the risk and lose.

2

I can see both sides, but short-term the lockdown has helped abate a deluge of hospital patients. Also lockdown gives more time for a vaccine to be developed.

There is such a thing as overreaction, where the cure becomes worse than the disease. In the long term, everyone will have been exposed to the virus. We’ll either be dead or immune, or somewhat immune. I think it is reasonable to begin to relax some of the precautions. This thing is not all that dire.

And your reaction to this -
“Right now, we have no evidence that the use of a serologic test can show that an individual is immune or is protected from reinfection,” the WHO’s Maria Van Kerkhove said at a briefing last week. (Said with regard to covid)

@Flowerwall Even if true we can’t stay locked up forever.

To put things in perspective, the country with the highest death rate is Belgium—they’ve lost six hundredths of one percent of their citizens, and most of those were in bad shape already. In contrast, the epidemics of old often killed three to nine percent of the population. In 1900 this Coronavirus wouldn’t even have been noticed.

@WilliamFleming Please see my last response to Mofo above.

2

Herd immunity will be the final outcome. Delaying herd immunity prolongs the suffering.

And the whole response in China and the fact the city of Wuhan is now reopen is an apparition.

2

I have not had a chance to watch this yet, but whenever I hear someone talking about "building immunity to covid" I do highly question their knowledge base about this new illness. Experts have proposed there may be a "fading immunity" to covid that may only last three months. If the fading immunity idea is correct these types of discussions are not only worthless, but highly counterproductive. Again I will ask, why is the media not exemplifying nations where rule following lead to successful covid management? Please note Wuhan, China , city of ORIGIN of virus has already REOPENED, while U.S had a case rate what almost 10x country of origin and continues to propagate virus daily through lax rules and disease management techniques. When can the U.S. start having useful discussions about covid?

I started watching this and immediately Maher plays on American desire to individualism "groupthink", he calls it. Flouts the Dr.s credentials, we GET IT, he is educated, but does he EVER discuss the fading immunity idea?

“Right now, we have no evidence that the use of a serologic test can show that an individual is immune or is protected from reinfection,” the WHO’s Maria Van Kerkhove said at a briefing last week. (Said with regard to covid) Why is the Dr. Intetviewed above, a Dr. of HIS level of education, not in step with WHO stance?

What date was this filmed? The more recent it was the more bothered it makes me. I am 3:33 in no mention of Wuhan, China being open. He is only giving other alternative possibilities of what outcomes we can expect.

2

Going on the 5th week of quarantine. Overall. Sick of it. Need to get back to normal business. With all the diseases this world has ever faced without quarantines. Quarantine should have been an all or nothing thing ...not this half-arsed quarantine of just "slowing it down".

2

One of 3 things will happen when exposed:

  1. Your body will fight it off naturally, you won’t even know you were exposed
  2. Your body will need help with medical intervention
  3. You will die, nothing will save you.

Those three seem correct to me. One problem I have from listening to conservative radio programs today is that many are now starting to question that maybe they had it last year and did not know it. WTF?

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:489388
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.