Let's try this again.
In my opinion, discipline and constant learning, are some of the most important keys to living life well. Living well, in the sense of, keeping a marriage and/or other close relationships stable, keeping a job, or a successful business, going, to bring home the bacon.
The same discipline that folks use to do those things, family stability, and workplace stability, that same discipline, is what Christians, and other religious folks, that same discipline is what they use to attend religious services, just about every week.
And, religious congregations are peer support groups. A man with a wife and kids, sees other men with wives and kids, and the different families support each other, by showing up together, and seeing each other.
That is why, in my observation, there seems to be such a "The family that prays together, stays together," reality.
When I first got married, in 1977, I made sure my wife and I went to church on a regular basis, because I wanted our marriage to last. And it did, for 30 years. And then she died.
Actually, I became an atheist in 1999, so we only went to church for 22 years. But we still had a very stable marriage, and the peer support group of our church congregation, likely helped us.
Now, as an atheist, I look at things like going to church, and the Bible lessons, in a very different light, of course. But, from the time I became an atheist, I could always see the parables, the allegory, the fables, the lessons, in the Bible.
"Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things."
That is First Corinthians, chapter 13, verses four through seven, King James Version.
" Love suffers long and is kind; love envies not; love flaunts not itself and is not puffed up, 5 does not behave itself improperly, seeks not its own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil; 6 rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things."
That is the Modern English Version.
Do you like love?
Love?
Do you like it?
Do you like stopping, some times, and thinking about what is truly loving? Such as, not flaunting yourself, not getting all puffed up. Most folks in this group likely do not like some of the pastors of some of the big churches, since they might seem puffed up, flaunting themselves. Jesus said something like, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, blind guides. You make showy prayers in the streets, puffing yourselves up, flaunting yourselves." So, you, and Jesus, and the writer of First Corinthians, you all agree, that religious leaders sometimes act all puffed up, they flaunt themselves.
The last time I posted here, too many of you said you hate, truly hate, the Bible, you hate all religion, you hate it all, you hate, hate, hate. You don't think you need to work on loving, not hating?
If you want to hate something, let's hate the bigotry, the bigotry, the hate, lets hate the hate, the hate that is killing black folks in America today. I married into a black family. I am the only white person in the house, seven of us in the house. Killing black folks, that's about killing my family. That killing is inspired by hate. Can we learn to love? Most black folks are Christians, like my family. Most of the bigots are Christians, as far as I know. So, those who argue about doing the right thing, could use the Bible. As in, killing black folks is not loving them, it is puffing yourself up, flaunting yourself. That is what the bigots are doing, when they kill the black folks. That is what the police are doing, flaunting their power, puffing up themselves in their uniforms. Killing black folks. Love is not easily provoked. The cops are easily provoked.
I could go on and on.
Thanks for reading.
And, please, could you show me some love, rather than hate? Can you?
Thanks again.
11
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20 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Your last paragraph says it all very well. I'm 74 now and people are asking me about (or telling me their version) of black lives matter. What do I think of BLM? My ex-wife of 12 years was a native Kenyan. Some idiots don't get it even today and ask me if she was a missionary.
DenoPenno
Level 9
June 14, 2020
2
Keep reading and in the next chapter you will come to:
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
And it's precisely because we love that we reject this authority.
Gareth
Level 7
June 14, 2020
3
OMG I never heard about this but then again I never read the bible i was just told about the happy parts about god loving. In my culture The Code of Handsome Lake it states that a woman could be disciplined by her husband with a switch thick as his thumb. Plus she was to say nothing to him if he went to "visit" another woman's house. Is this written in the bible also? I'm just wondering.
Sounds like you're betting on Pascal's wager.
Instead of cherry picking the 'good bits' of the bible, perhaps it needs editing. When statues (Colston) are thrown in the river cos the guy made his living out of slavery, when Gone with the Wind is removed and Chris Lilley the comedian is banned for using black face comedy then perhaps we need to have a good hard look at religious books that promote the same kind of racism/bigotry/sexism. Why isn't there a push for the bible, koran etc to be edited?
MsDemeanour
Level 8
June 13, 2020
1
Re. "Why isn't there a push for the Bible, Koran, ect to be edited?"
Uh...that would require the faithful to admit their holy scriptures are flawed. That is unacceptable to them.
The Bible already has been edited countless times, over nearly two millenia. That also includes but is not limited to translations, which ostensibly are simply seeking accuracy and clarity from one language to another, but in reality the translations have often included cultural bias. Anyway, to openly endorse these acts as editing amounts ro sacrilege to many Christians.
@MikeInBatonRouge the bible as written is cultural bias. That this is true is too obvious to explain.
@Healthydoc70 Of course. And again, the believers would never admit such a truth.
We’ve a similar marriage timeline… Discipline by self, for self, is paramount ... determining what’s most important and putting forth the effort to ‘make it so.’
What I see in religion, or that practiced by the masses, is an over disciplined behavior. They seek support, but are too easily ‘guided’ beyond healthy behavior ..toward rigid social restrictions, conforming to whatever the ‘preacher’ or church doctrine dictates..
Balance is gone; instead of relying on advice from trusted friends and family, individuals begin to rely on a quasi social political network feeding off their energy and resources. Pulled in, it appears difficult to extricate oneself.
As far as ‘the bible,’ it’s an exaggerated blend of local history and fabricated tales meant to create conformity through fear. When obviously lied to, it’s impossible to trust such a source.
As for hate and ethnicity, I was taught to consider all races equal, yet when they act as a unit, a separate entity ..for whatever purpose, it becomes impossible to ‘treat them as one.’ If we are not one with humanity, we are separate by choice. That’s why to me, all lives matter ~
Varn
Level 8
June 13, 2020
1
The bible is not a valid source of moral teachings. For example;
The NT gives rules on how to treat your slaves .... how many DO you own??
If your daughter is raped, you are supposed to make her marry her rapist. That really works for you?
Normanbites
Level 7
June 13, 2020
0
What about the Tower of Babel. One of the punishments from GOD was to make people have different skin colour. (LETS HEAR THAT AGAIN, making your skin another colour was a PUNISHMENT. Let's not use the bible to talk about how we can overcome Hate and Bigotry. Come on guys....WHAT???
dermot235
Level 7
June 13, 2020
1
I am queer. The Bible has been utterly weaponized for many centuries to try to stamp out, destroy people like me. And to try to make me hate myself. Telling anyone on this site that we express too much hate for the Bible is sure to convince us that you are judging us from a personal place of ignorance. Your attempted message is doomed to rejection right then and there.
And yet, I can respect some points of what you seem to be trying to say. Certainly, we CAN find common ground with people of religious outlook. We CAN communicate more diplomatically and hope to nudge people in a direction of using their religious belief more constructively and less hurtfully. That diplomacy is worth striving for. We certainly willfail if our aim is to stamp out religion with a frontal assault.
At the end of the day, however, to me personally, religion has done far more harm in the world than it has done good. À video worth watching:
Taken from the larger debate
MikeInBatonRouge
Level 8
June 13, 2020
2
@TheMiddleWay Believe it or not, I already agree with you, lol. I am aware of Matthew Vines. i have watched him on you tube. I am also aware that roughly 50%of American lgbtq people still identify as religious. Go figure. Religion is what people make of it. Christianity is anti-queer because people in influential positions have seen fit to make it so. That does not excuse the damage it has done.
Religion is dangerous, in part, precisely because it powerfully emphasizes faith as a top virtue. Translation: Faith is the suspension of critical thinking and of reasoned doubt. Religion powerfully is tailor made for manipulating and controlling peopleto political and social agendas. In practice, that has amounted to much more harm than good,vas our friend Stephen Frye eloquently pointed out.
BTW, another pro-diversity Christian voice is John Shore. Check out his book "unfair." It is very good.
Still, Christianity is a fairytale with immeasurable blood on its hands. I am perfectly comfortable talking to xtians. I am just not about to drink their Koolaid. And I believe it is good for THEM to get educated about some of the destruction Christianity has wrought in the world. If they truly want to be more Christlike, as most of them claim, they need to get less Christian-like. (Hey! I should trademark that!) The record speaks for itself.
@TheMiddleWay regarding "only the most extreme of religious endorse that that faith should spill over into other areas like science or medicine."
Oh really? In case you haven't noticed, that extreme "minority" has largely fucked over the Republican party in trying to take over government. It is true that big money and big industry in turn manipulate the religious electorate by pandoring to their absurd sensibilities, but that still ends up fucking with policy that effects us all. Betsy Fucking Devos is a total Xtian nutjob, and she has been handed the reins of power to dismantle secular education across the nation. There are actually too many "extreme" Xtians to name, currently either in the Trump administration or in committee positions in Congress. Downstream at the local level, schoolboards across the land are also heavily influenced or outright dominated by these zealous wingnuts for Jesus. This is not merely academic.
@TheMiddleWay sure. And I agree, directly, most see the hard sciences as requiring critical thinking. But my example was to highlight that policy makers are overriding that, whether or not most Xtians agree with it. Those extreme minority are having an outsized influence and it is bad!
@TheMiddleWay agreed. It is an uphill battle, especially since the deck is stacked in this pseudo-democracy. But that is another discussion topic entirely. 
@TheMiddleWay Your argument sounds similar to that of one of your gun nuts saying that it isn't the automatic weapons which are the problem, it's just the way some people use them. The bible can be a powerful weapon and it has been used as one for almost 2 millennia. When you look at just the benign uses it's just like looking at the very few benign uses for an automatic rifle (killing thousands of burnt livestock if you were wondering) and ignoring the terrible devastation that general useage/ownership causes.
@TheMiddleWay Analogy is a legitimate form of argument and whether it is a valid analogy can be dependent upon how rhe reader interprets it. It wasn't me that initially used the word "weaponised"
The concept of Systemic Racism has emerged from the protests as a challenge to our thinking. Yes, individuals harm others as an expression of their insecurity, but whole systems orient or imbalance decision-making, again resulting in harm to non-whites.
Western religions contribute, not just to Systemic Racism, but to Systemic Hatred. The list of hated groups includes non-whites, but add in scientists, other religions, women, LGBTX, etc.
It is critical to understand that religion is the major part of the problem. However much wisdom might be cherry-picked, the context still directs its believers to behave badly. The affliction of religion cuts across all races. Shame on those who target select groups for outrage while refusing to examine their own biases.
racocn8
Level 9
June 13, 2020
1
Well-written, bigjac. I agree that, although we can reject the mythology of religion, it goes too far to reject everything they teach. I agree that loving our neighbors as ourselves is a great basis for good ethics.
BestWithoutGods
Level 8
June 13, 2020
3
Could you stick to one theme per post, and keep it down to 5 or less sentences? And BTW your rant about being the only white person in your family (by marriage) reeks slightly of racism to me....
AnneWimsey
Level 9
June 13, 2020
5
this 100%. Seems to me this guy is kinda off his rocker Anne.
No I don't need to work on the fact I hate something that has caused countless deaths across history. Maybe instead of writing a book complaining about it you should educate yourself.
Or perhaps you're still religious and trying to lessen the blow when you admit it to yourself. If thats the case find the door. Life isn't that difficult.
redhog
Level 7
June 13, 2020
3
I think you confuse hate with righteous anger. You know what that is right? That's when morally upright people are furious at the bullshit and especially at people who cherry pick the little nice bits. That's like saying that hitler wasn't such a bad guy because he liked cats. You think because you see the nice little bits that you are in some way better than we who are furious at the lot. You're the hypocrite who wants to play both sides, to say to your little friends, ohh, I can see the nice things about the bible, when we see that embedded within that is the hate, the control, the manipulation and the prejudice. Sounds to me as if you stand for nothing and are trying to keep everyone happy.
Cyklone
Level 7
June 13, 2020
4
The same could be the same for the laws of the usa, you cherry pick the ones you like, but ignore the historical atrocities the law put on people of color, people with disabilities, etc.
As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth. - Mikhail Bakunin
Emotions and feelings can hinder and stop real progress.
There is a reason the Bible is pushed onto conquered peoples, the people themselves will sustain their captivity. Trump is a great example of pushing this book for this very reason.
Blaming the innocent, the victim, is a foundational pillar of religions who believe in blood sacrifice. Believing that sin can be transferred to an innocent lamb, or person, has created a mindset that has been prevalent in society for a very long time. Women and children are raped and blamed for their own rape, they are sold and exploited like property. People of color and the poor are exploited and payed poverty wages, slave wages, to keep them in their place. It isn't strange that women and people of color are the most religious demographic, it was meant to be that way. While all the while there is an unreasonable reverence of an authority that is considered macho and dominating. And all the while convincing them that they will have a mansion or some ultimate excess in a heaven that hasn't been proven to exist. A perfect set-up for the few who would exploit others for their own benefit.
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world. I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker." - Mikhail Bakunin
"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick.'" - Mikhail Bakunin
Remember, it is most likely, Jesus never existed at all.
nogod4me
Level 8
June 13, 2020
3
"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible" 
bbyrd009
Level 7
June 13, 2020
5
Sounds good, since most atheists are more knowledgable about it than the average Christian. But my 82 year old father has read it daily for at least 60 years, and he is as devout as ever. He is also lacking in critical thinking skills and is a sitting duck for hucksters of various sorts. He believes the Bible is infallable, even after I showed him demonstrable errors and self-contraditory passages. Go figure. 
@MikeInBatonRouge well, a search of "Mithraism and" does not autocomplete for "Christianity" for nothing, but i doubt that would reach him either...plucking out your right eye is a hard thing to do i guess. So fwiw i suggest taking advantage of Christians, for the reasons you state, that are even written in the Bible. Unfort that won't help you with dad much either i guess, sorry. My mom is ezackly the same. Hey is your dad single bac? 
@bbyrd009 is Dad single? No. Mom died at age 65. 10 years later Dad married someone he "re-met" at a high school reunion two years earlier. They fit each other. Both nice people but impossible to reason with. I have tried sending my dad literature to crack open some less literal readings of his scripture, but with a 6th grade (at best) reading ability, he never even tries to read them. I sent him some occasional dvds that gently argued for more progressive readings of the "bibble" with the hope we could start some thoughtful dialogue. My guess is he finds it threatening, because if he has viewed any of it, he doesn't let on. He has a bible college bachelor degree but a 6th grade reading ability...that was formally tested. Dad is dyslexic and, I strongly suspect, somewhat Asperger's. When you talk to him about beliefs, social issues, science, etc, you can see in his face that he's busy turning those little brain wheels, trying to formulate his next statements while you talk. He seems incapable of even processing what is being said to him but he loves to "witness." Boy does he!
I find myself wondering how many other people are similar to him, in how they are utterly impervious to new information. Dad has been reading and re-reading the Bible his entire life. Granted, he is a slow reader, but even so, he reads every single day, sometimes twice in a day, and makes notes for himself. He never gets bored of it. You would think he could recite the entire damned thing, by now, but he keeps turning to it believing he receives fresh revelations each time.
Part of my morbid interest in the Bible comes from the awareness of just how much many people view it as a core source of knowledge(insert eye roll here) and guidance for living. I frequently point out to Christians who reference it at me that even as they site a particular passage, they are often contradicting another. ...or that some ideas they count as coming from the Bible are at best only hinted at by it, or they are from another source the Bible has usurped, or their reference has been re-interpreted over centuries to reshape the intended message, etc. etc.
I rather like the idea of "sidewalk epistemology," the art of planting a seed of doubt in literalist Christians to help them see that one can never justifiably be totally sure of one's beliefs. That seed of doubt, I am convinced, it utterly necessary for a person ever to have a hope of escaping their religious indoctrination. You cannot de-convert people simply by dismantling their beliefs in debate. They will tune out everything that does not compute for them within their insular paradigm. They have to first understand that doubt is justifiable.
They also have to overcome fear of punishment for non-belief. That fear is powerful. That is why I don't tell them their beliefs are shit. I try to get them to question whether they are correctly, "logically," interpreting those scriptures and to see that a literal reading is both impossible and not what the authors intended. After all, the Bible is chock full of parables, not history.
Anyway, I get very wordy on weekends, because I have more free time, lol.
@MikeInBatonRouge not sure why the Bible is being denigrated when it is the ppl who can't read that should be...but anyway, "that seed of doubt" surely = "what is it?" right, which is how "manna" is even defined! But "Esau"--who desires "red stew" bc he is "so hungry he is about to die," see, its all in There, even that Esau is not condemned for wanting blood, but for "not allowing Israel (thats you) to pass through"
Esau I have hated
Okay, a lot to unpack. Some thought provoking comments, however sure not to win friends here with its heavy referencing of Christian scripture.
You state there are two things needed for a good life, discipline and learning. I agree but have been using different terminology...."healthy routine" and "spirit of curiosity about life, about self, and the world around us" ...even expanding that to the cosmos. I say learning , itself, is a chore, a drudgery, and difficult IF one does not approach it with an attitude of curiousity. With that curiosity, it is a joy. It literally helps make life worth living.
Healthy routine is an idea I absorbed from years of working in cognative-behavioral therapy, for people with hurtful compulsive or impulsive or addictive behaviors to overcome. It is more the behavioral part of the equasion. Although we humans are capable of reason, much/most of what we actually do in life is NOT carefully reasoned through, because that would drain us and slow us down way too much. Most of our lived lives is a matter of habit. So we best take care to foster healthy habits.
Although you claimed two important elements, you actually described THREE, and you spent the most time on the third one that third one is community. That community is what church provides, what family and friends and even coworkers provide, and virtually, what this forum provides. Humans are genetically, instinctually, social beings. We could be hermits, but we can't really be emotionally healthy hermits. We need others to thrive. Remember Ted Kazinski, the Unibomber? Not healthy. Remember that Tom Hanks character in Castaway? ("Wilson!!" ) Again, not healthy. Even many loners who enjoy time with their own thoughts often gravitate toward finding some animal companions for a sort of non-verbal community. Lol.
As for quoting scripture and finding wisdom there, I agree with what was already mentioned. When we live surrounded by religious people and we want to get along with them and be able to have respectful dialogue, familiarizing ourselves with their own claimed moral compass reference material is helpful....just so long as we realize this religion did not invent these principles. Philosophical/religious systems around the globe and in different eras have stumbled across most of the same bits of wisdom. There IS wisdom in there. We just don't want to "drink the Koolaid" and toss out our critical thinking. And we need to remember our bullshit meter to reject the garbage that is also abundant in the Bible.
MikeInBatonRouge
Level 8
June 13, 2020
2
You are so correct.
Discipline, curiosity to stimulate learning, and community, some folks to chat with, and see them living out lives similar to you own.
As for a healthy routine, I actually print up a checklist, every day, and work on the items on my list. I have found that I need my checklist, now that I have retired from working at Walmart. My job at Walmart gave me a very healthy routine: put the items on the shelves, kind of a soothing, 3-D jigsaw puzzle, and, anytime I saw a customer, I said, "Doin' all right today?" And, if they looked confused, I said, "Can I help you find something?"
But now, I get out of bed, print up my checklist, and get to work, item by item.
My wife is disabled, so a lot of my day is simply taking care of my wife, simple, routine chores.
We also have six chickens, so I enjoy tending to the chickens.
As for the Bible, we are swimming in Bibles, here in the USA, just swimming in them. And, in some years, some decades, of going to church, we hear many great verses quoted by many pastors, pastors who cherry pick the verses that give us universal wisdom, that we can use, in our daily living. And, the pastor even explains the lesson, and how we might use the wisdom in our daily lives.
In fact, about twelve hours from now, my wife and I plan to be at her church, the church she was raised in. The pastor understands I am an atheist, and he likes me, and we often talk about his lesson of the week.
But yes, you are also correct, that I truly keep my "bullshit meter" turned on and working.
Thanks again, for your thoughtful, supportive comment.
Thanks again.
the bible is a POS book that contains the worst and most heinous acts that are condoned by god, you can't cherry pick what is innocuous from the bible by overlooking all the support for genocide, slavery, misogyny and overall irrational despicable stuff that was never retracted anywhere, it is like saying that Mein Kampf is a good book because it has some effectively demagogic shit, just as you cannot cherry pick that hateful book, you can't cherry pick that even more hateful book called the bible just because it has some passages that sooth you!
Mofo1953
Level 9
June 13, 2020
5
"that was never retracted anywhere" lol, you might wanna rethink that fwiw, [biblicalhistoricalcontext.com]
@bbyrd009 I don't have to rethink anything, all the barbarism in the old testament was not retracted in the new testament at all, and when I say anywhere I mean anywhere in the bible not in the internet that is chock full of christian sites hidden under "historical" names" full of bullshit trying to do what you are trying to do, defend a barbaric book. There is nothing in the bible, new or old testament, that condemns or even implies that slavery is immoral and bad. Yet there is jesus himself saying in Matthew 5:17-18:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
So what is the law on slaveryl? Read it here:
Exodus 21:1-11
1 “These are the laws you are to set before them:
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
Do not try to bullshit me on the bible. I've read it many times, apparently you haven't.
First of all I wish you well, you have very valid points and yes there are people that feel that hate is very necessary I personally Don't, the Bible is worthless to me unless of course I have a table with the leg that shorter than the others in the Bible just happens to fill that space. We're all on this ball of dirt together so "WE" humanity needs to get their act together.
oldFloyd
Level 8
June 13, 2020
3
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