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Yerp, what Washington is trying to accomplish in Ukraine is anyone's guess, and now that Putin is taking the gloves off the people of Ukraine are going to really suffer. All over issues that could easily have been settled without a war. [original.antiwar.com]

Druvius 8 Sep 22
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3

Putin is the Hitler of our times. There's so much nonsense in Stockman's piece it would take an essay to debunk it all. It's always easier and quicker to propagate a lie than disprove it. Hitler also had his apologists and appeasers before 1939 who also larded their lies and misinformation with a few extenuating facts.

You really haven't a clue.. NASA is full of Nazis,butchers murderers and freaks of the Reich.. Ukraine is full of Nazi freaks, Russia isn't perfect but the western powers have given Russia a helping hand to get away with commiting to war as their last resort

I think it's all a game.. I think Putin is most likely in on it

You can't fucking fuck with people and not have war ..

Ethnic Russians arrested for just speaking a language? Children at schools bombed? Russia had to respond to it...

It's like they get game pieces to play .. andthe world taking sides in the game..

You think it's wrong Russia is using war tactics to fight people who are responsible for acts of war ?

They should all be peaceful Right? Takes both sides to do that ...

@laidback1 You're so badly brainwashed it's not possible to talk sensibly with you. Sorry not to be able to help you but the lapses in your education are too big for one person to take on.

@Gareth do yourself a favor and block laidback1. He is either a troll or his ignorance is larger than the universe.

@Gwendolyn2018 Thank you. I will block him once he's had a chance to see my response so he'll know why.

@Gareth I blocked him a couple of days ago! I am old and want to waste my time on worthwhile people.

0

If you ever get a chance, read "The Farmers Lawyer".
It shows Reagan & Stockman as Communists....stealing private land and shitting all over due process.

twill Level 7 Sep 24, 2022
3

Kind of like a god, your comment would make sense if you had evidence to support it.

5

All very true but it is Putin's war. Washington did not start that war.

4

Tell the last sentence to Vladimir.

10

Stockman ignores the fact that every former Soviet Union country that joined NATO, decided to do it as part of their foreign policy. Neither the US nor Russia has the right to dictate another nation's foreign policy. The choice to join NATO was basically a statement that they would rather be part of Europe than return to being a satellite of Russia. This was driven by Putin's invasions of Chechnya and Georgia.

If anybody is to blame for NATO's expansion, it is Putin. It may just happen to be slightly more obvious in the cases of Finland and Sweden.

As for the war in Ukraine, the only person responsible is the person who ordered it, Vladimir Putin. He started it, and he can stop it at any time.

For Washington/NATO to even try to end the war Stockman, himself, says that they would have to cede parts of Ukraine to Putin. Sorry, David, but they have neither the authority nor the right to do that.

And in case Stockman has forgotten his history, I suggest that he Google Neville Chamberlain and review what happens when you appease aggressors.

The same people who condemn the West for 'meddling' would be the first to condemn it for doing nothing. Their arguments are only logical in as far as they're preceded by 'patho-'.

@Gareth republicans John McCain and Lindsey graham and Democrats Biden ect ,funny how they are all together on this ? If you actually look into it you'd see Nazis are actually in Ukraine.. but you won't look .. you'll just be a little bitch

Putin ordered the Ukraine government to bomb a children's school? Putin ordered the Ukraine government to arrest ethnic Russians for speaking Russian? Putin ordered the Ukraine government to kill journalists? To order the death of a little girl for writing a book ? Okay Buddy

@laidback1 The moment you resorted to personal insult you lost the argument. You've chosen genocide and dictatorship, I've chosen democracy and freedom. I won't get down to your level - I'll leave it at that.

5

I thought it was THAT David Stockman. At least he admitted that he was clueless about his infamous "trickle down theory" that subsequently destroyed the American Middle Class. Too late and no one cared, it was Game On ! Full court press

twill Level 7 Sep 22, 2022
4

I actually feel for press ganged Russians. The French had Algerians fighting in the Dien Bien Phu disaster. Then Algeria fought back. How will Chechens take being cannon fodder? In the US before I was born people protested fighting in a shit war based upon lies. Russian citizens are protesting and getting press ganged for that. Are you sure you’re not seriously miscalibrated on this one?

Yes, I certainly could be. I just wish the people regurgitating the twaddle coming out of Washington and Kiev could do the same.

And Vietnam was a shit colonial war. Putin is fighting in defense of Russia and Russians. If anything his popularity has gone up, despite the twaddle in the western press.

@Druvius In defense of Russia and Russians? When Putin started the war Russia needed defended. Maybe defended form Nazis. Who would believe this?

@Druvius I know Americans trying to get out of Russia who can't find a plane ticket because Russians are leaving as fast as they can to avoid the draft. In other words I think you might be mistaken about kittens popularity right now.

2

I think the reporting has been very bad, nuclear conflict is no joking matter. If Ukraine artillery keep crossing the border Russia will view it as an attack on them and use all means to defend themselves which is exactly what the USA, UK, China, Nth Korea etc all nuclear powers will say.
I'm all for the removal of Russian military forces from Ukraine but if any counter offensive continues to push into Russia proper ie Putin's "bluff" is called.................
Ukraine is a picture perfect example of a proxy war with those arming Ukraine not doing it for the Ukraine people, but to prolong fighting with Russia in an attempt to bankrupt them like Afghanistan did with the USSR. Helped to quicken the USSR's demise for sure, but what were the consequences of arming/ training Afghani "mujahideen" in the decades that followed?
I fear Ukraine will be a failed state like Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq which endangers the whole region.
Peace talks and diplomacy are needed now more than ever.

puff Level 7 Sep 22, 2022

The proxy war viewpoint doesn't hold up given that prior to this, we were on friendly relations with russia. Trump was very friendly as were McDonald's Walmart and all our corporations.

Crane gives the us a opportunity to flex its muscle and try to return roll of global protector, of global superpowers. But to claim that this is a proxy war with the express intent of bringing Russia down just doesn't hold up to our post Cold war relations with Russia.

@TheMiddleWay Russia was an allie, until Assad invited them to Syria and they quickly stopped the truck convoys removing oil to fund ISIS (remember that? And the "Wests inability to stop the coveys after months?). That's when Russia entered the bad books. Proxy war 1.0 started in Syria. Ukraine is 2.0.
This talk of declaring Russia a terrorist state is the same "logic" warmongers in the US used when declaring wikileaks a non-state intelligence service. A new delegation of status will unleash new resources ie Is it not the role of the Pentagon to seek out and destroy "terrorists" compliments of the Patriot Act? They will be duty bound to attack Russia.

@puff
Nah. Syria and Ukraine are radically different. In the case of syria, you had a population that wanted democracy and a government that wanted to maintain authoritarianism. The USA supported democracy, Russian supported authoritarianism. This is not a proxy war in so much as just each side supporting their ideology. In the Ukrainian conflict you had the Ukraine minding its own business and then Putin decides to flex and invade. The invasion of one country on to another has been all but universally condoned by the world.

I don't see these as proxy wars in the spirit of the cold war. I see Syria as a war of ideologies and the Ukraine as territorial Conquest plaine and simple. The only commonality is that it pits American ideology versus Russia's authoritarianism. If Syria had listened to its people for example, there would be no need for us to go up against russia. And if Russia had left the ukrainian, they would be no need to investmentarily in the ukraine.

Calling it a proxy war sounds like the US wants to go to war with russia, wants to provoke these proxy wars, and that is simply not the case. We got too much shit on our plate right now politically to want to fuck around with other people's problems

@TheMiddleWay Syria is an Arab country. If you wish to be a secular country in the Arab world, you need strong leaders to stand up to fanatics, mostly of the religious types. These leaders will be respected but harsh. Not to Western tastes but who is to judge? A different society/ culture is all, no need to judge. Up to them what works.
Ghaddafi, Hussain, Assad all allowed minorities to exist. Secular societies. Not nice people but respected, providing stability and security. All sovereign countries.
Remember, Assad was an accepted member of the civilized world before the Arab Spring. Damascus is a cosmopolitan city. Obama was arming al Nusra to help "moderates" topple Assad remember? The only extremists left can be found where the US bases are, not where the Syrian Army has control.
One common denominator is both countries are middle men for pipelines suppling energy to Europe. US was against both, Russia for.

It's hard to have diplomacy when one side is violating international law and insulting and threatening those who uphold it.

@Gareth No-one is upholding international law. Plenty ignore it

@puff Well, you're certainly not.

6

How could it have been settled peacefully when Putin has stated, many years ago, that it was his intention to reunite the former Soviet Union. Crimea was a test of the world’s ambivalence towards Putin’s plan. The world did nothing to support Ukraine then so Putin thought he had a pass.

No, he said nothing of the sort. He said some Russians want to reinstate the Soviet Union. And right after he said "it was a horrifically bad idea," which of course the western press selectively ignores. You are literally repeating propaganda, Putin's goals were clearly stated, and a just peace could clearly be negotiated. It's in the article I l.inked. The US would prefer Ukrainians keep dying in a stupid pointless war that Ukraine can't win, it's sick.

I would suggest the world's reaction to NATO moving into Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria and even the former Yugoslavia may have encouraged Putin he had a pass. Pity none spoke up. The reaction to the Saudi's murdering in embassies ie nothing again, also encouraged him.
Then when 3 permanent members of the UN security council, UK/ France/ USA, take it upon themselves to revenge strike Syria over a disproved gas attack without UN approval, and nothing happened, may have also encouraged Putin.
Putin is no angel, but he is not the devil incarnate either. To borrow your first line;
"How could it have been settled peacefully when NATO has stated, many years ago, it would not expand eastward.

And Obama handed Crimea to Russia, fortunately the Crimeans are overwhelmingly happy to be in Russia. Actual democracy and self determination, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine should never have been given to Ukraine in the first place, the Americans drew the borders after the collapse of the Soviet Union purely to weaken Russia with no concern for the actual people living there. It's caused numerous wars so far, including two currently raging in the region.

@Druvius Now Obama is in it. Keep this up. Maybe Clinton had something to do with it too. How about Bush? I bet this goes all the way back to Eisenhower.

@puff "NATO has stated, many years ago, it would not expand eastward." Not true. Get your facts right.

@Gareth Ok, try this then.

Former leaders of countries comprising NATO gave Russia assurances the NATO alliance would not expand East at the fall of the USSR.
[eurasiareview.com]

@puff Various western figureheads at different times assured USSR officials that NATO did not intend to expand eastwards. That was not a NATO commitment. In case you didn't know, NATO is an alliance of independent states and nobody has any authorisation to speak on NATO's behalf without unanimous approval of all members. NATO never issued any such guarantee and no treaty was ever proposed, much less signed, which would have incorporated it into law. In any event, no intention expressed towards the USSR would have any validity after the dissolution of that entity. And remember that every NATO country is a member at its own request through a freely elected government and is at liberty to leave at any time. You may not like it, but that's democracy.

@Druvius You say both that Ukraine had no claim to Crimea and that Obama handed it to Russia. Make up your mind.

@Gareth Which is why agreements made with the US are not worth the paper they are written on

@puff My whole post was to demonstrate that there was no paper.

@Gareth and that makes it OK? Kurds disagree.

@puff Try to focus on what the other person has said before changing the subject.

@Gareth There are plenty of records/ transcripts of meetings between the USSR leadership and European (NATO) leadership where assurances were made NATO would not expand eastwards, rather than a contract or agreement as such. I mean what was going to happen if any such agreement was broken? Put the USSR back together?
Glasnost and Perestroika was Gorbachev's legacy which had to be sold not only to the Kremlin but Russian/ Soviet people as well. The fall of the USSR would not have happened if assurances regarding NATO expansion were not made at that time. For NATO et al to turn around 30 years later and say "We never signed any agreement" is a denial of what actually happened and a devious betrayal that may have severe consequences.

@puff Without treaties and signatures, politician's words are worthless, Everyone knows this. Putin himself publicly promised to respect the borders of Ukraine in 2006 and 2008 and even not to invade as recently as this year (never mind "30 years" ). Even in America, politicians have been know to lie - who remembers "No new taxes" or "We'll build a wall and Mexico will pay for it"? If people believe such promises and are disappointed it is entirely their own fault. If you don't have a legally binding contract you're just whining. Russia however DID sign the Budapest Memorandum guaranteeing Ukraine's sovereignty within its then borders. That alone would justify the US's unlimited assistance as a co-signatory. Liars are everywhere, but the worst of them is the Kremlin.

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