Here's a chestnut that often comes up when a religious person finds out that I am an Atheist. Religion has done a thorough job of convincing their gullible and naive followers that they have a monopoly on morality.
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Many primitive philosophies (religions) are (in their way) smart to pursue not only convincing folks of their strong cosmogeny beliefs, but also of their moral high ground. In fact, I think many people, even when they realize the biblical cosmogeny is (or may be) partially or fully nonsense, reconcile this with thinking that either it is useful metaphor, and/or that having and living a moral life is more important than anything (including the details of some creation debate). I think they fear that they may not be able to reason out either a rational view of the universe, or of the best way to lead their lives in it, on their own, and they concede the point to peer pressure and their own doubts, as to being willing to adopt the community standard beliefs.
I think a lot of atheists get at least some of this. However, on balance, I don't see too many atheists questioning why a concept (and robust thinking through) of "morality" is (or is not) a thing that is needed in our lives. Many do either assume or conclude (for those that question it first) that such a thing as "morality" is important to them, but then I am not sure how many question mainstream handed-down second-hand thinking as to what is and is not moral.
Fwiw, I think hashing out these matters over the years is one of the most useful and important things that we can do on this website.
kmaz
Level 7
Dec 26, 2022
0
Fundamentalist Christians take extreme offense when I point out the immorality of their God. They get even more upset when I point out their duplicity when they claim that their God has the right to be a genocidal maniac.
anglophone
Level 9
Dec 13, 2022
5
Most religions morality comes from fear of punishment and hell. I would say a no religious persons morality is even more sincere because it comes from the heart and not forced through fear
abyers1970
Level 7
Dec 12, 2022
1
@Gwendolyn2018 yes you did. Sorry I didn’t see it when I posted but you said it better than I did
That bit about if "If you don't fear hell what keeps you from breaking into your neighbor's house and beheading them and raping infants?" Close to the Duck Dynasty quote.
These thoughts don't enter my mind.
BufftonBeotch
Level 8
Dec 11, 2022
5
I worry about people who feel that they need the fear of punishment to keep them from behaving in a horribly anti-social manner. These very people may have lead to the rise of religion.
@SnowyOwl The sad reality is that most people operate like that, at what the psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg, who pioneered the study of moral reasoning, calls the conformity level of moral reasoning. These people operate, morally, at the basic level of doing what is needed to conform to the norms of their society, thru obedience to authority and to avoid punishment. Those two factors are all that motivate them in making their moral choices. In Kohlberg's model of moral reasoning, people with higher intelligence, and a more advanced level of moral reasoning, make their moral choices on much more universal and personally held convictions of right and wrong, which involve much more complicated reasons for the actions they choose.
@TomMcGiverin Or to paraphrase something I have heard -
If fear of eternal damnation is the only thing stopping you from corruption - You are not a good person.
You are a psychopath on a leash.
@BufftonBeotch Good line and quite true! You can bank on that one... And another related line I have always believed in, that I got from a Poli Sci professor, is " You never know who you really are, as far as morals or ethics, until you have been given power, and then been tested or tempted, by someone who asks you to use it or abuse that power, in doing favors for them or for hurting someone you don't like". Because until then, you don't really know who you are, in that area, and nobody else does, either...
Lots of people say and think they are very highly moral and ethical, but they have never had to prove it, by being tested or tempted in that sort of situation..
@TomMcGiverin I wish the more recent episodes of Star Wars had been better done and acted.
The journey of Darth Vader from a beloved golden child to destroyer of planets could have been tremendous.
We got "I hate sand."
@Gwendolyn2018 It is against anything in my nature to steal or hurt someone.
@Gwendolyn2018 Thankfully that hasn't been an issue. A few rough spots where I had to pick cans to make a meal. But that was decades ago. I hate to see people hungry.
I've found it to be a common theme amongst religious types that they feel that Atheists are more likely to be immoral, untrustworthy and even prone to criminal actions, this has been born out in numerous polls and studies. It's one of the reasons why so few politicians who are Atheists will publicly assert their true position on religion, most dodge the question if asked for the reasons cited above.
SnowyOwl
Level 8
Dec 11, 2022
6
No doubt. Biggest example is Bernie Sanders, who I have no doubt is an atheist, but because he wanted to be president, he always claimed that he was still Jewish, but non-observant, what a cop-out! But he knew he couldn't get away with adding Atheist to the Socialist label he already had...
kmaz:
He seems to have provided some nuance on the matter, but my impression has been that, once he had clarified definitions, Sanders was ok with being called a "socialist" and identifying himself that way. Perhaps since he has been a Vermont person, this hurt him less than elsewhere. I don't like socialism, but such labels may cover a lot of ground that I both agree and disagree with, and I did respect him for the honesty.
This honesty might then lead to us asking if he would self-identify as an atheist if he were. However, I am not sure.
@kmaz I think that Bernie knows that, here in America, identifying himself as an atheist would be an even greater kiss of death, to getting elected president, than even being labelled as a socialist. So he is keeping his non-belief to himself, tho he may change that sometime in the future, since he will never run again for president.
Going to church, or even simply claiming a religion, makes someone a moral person no more than sleeping in a garage, makes you a car...
TomMcGiverin
Level 8
Dec 11, 2022
4
If had these discussions. I end them quickly by saying "I am sorry to hear you can't figure out what is moral without consulting a religion.
Alienbeing
Level 8
Dec 11, 2022
7
Arthur Clark is correct. There are no gods (or god) that gave you morality and the argument is lame. The biblical god is immoral and only a fool would see it otherwise. What bothers me with this is all the people who claim "I can be moral without god." Why is it an issue and why am I worried that I am not moral?
Another similar issue is Pauline believers that argue their god "gave them a soul" when bible study shows this to be breath. Yes, with the breath of life you became a living soul. When you die you will be a dead soul. If you are Paul you "cannot tell if you were in or out of your body" when you received important teachings. Modern believers just love this.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Dec 11, 2022
3
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