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What I did not realise before is how much many members of Agnostic hate religion. I have no reason to hate it. It gave me beautiful music. It never harmed me. I never believed in any of the gods they put forward. I happily mixed in the highest musical circles because of it. I delighjted in my contacts with the Hare Krsna's and totally ignored the writings of Prabupada. My wife loved OSHO and his words were quite inspirational. I once played with an arab band in Tunis and with a Sufi band in Vancouver. The sufis were wonderful though I refused to have any close relationship with Islam. I did however study Sufi thinking for over 10 years. I really enjoyed my contacts with the Quakers. Each religion had ancient texts which I regarded as teaching metaphors. The whole stuff about Jesus smacked of much more ancient sun worship by for instant the Egyptians. All of the religious stuff I read was useful philosophical ideas. All religion is merely ideas though starstruck adherants work themselves into frenzies. Why we should believe more ideas of 2000 years ago rather than facing truths of today is mystery. We occasionally have gloom and doom and end of world prophets today; should we take any more notice of prophets from ages ago. Much religion is there to mass control. I recently watched something about the Mormons and so saw a whole people under complete control by an idea.
Why hate religion? I happily dispute with believers. We can still be friends.
The thing is that I am convinced that in hospital 2 years ago I met three beings from not of this world whose sole purpose with me was to ensure that I lived. Fine and good but I am left with the question why? What am I to do? What must I learn?
So now you can shake your heads and regard me as as a nutcase typical mensa out of reality.

rogerbenham 8 Nov 1
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I once saw a young girl in utter grief, sobbing uncontrollably, and could not be comforted. I learned that someone had told her that Santa did not exist, and it was as if she had lost an actual loved one. Some might say, how awful that someone told her the truth about Santa. I say, how awful that someone told her the lie in the first place.

A child may believe they "love" Santa, but in actuality, they "love" the concept, the idea, of Santa. Because, Santa does not exist. You cannot love an unsubstantiated belief. You may love the concept or idea of that belief which you have conceptualized over your lifetime from many different sources. But the substance, the reality, the proof, the most important thing needed to have people believe, that they can't produce.

You may not want to condemn the child, but I think those who push belief over evidence should at least get a good kick in the ass.

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I do not hate religious people either, ( I love to wake in Islamic countries to the sound of the call to prayer.) it is very much a case of hate the bad ideas, not the people who hold them. They are in many ways the victims.

But of course you also have to view things over time, what was once good may not be any longer. When religion was the only intellectual pursuit, then it was also the core of law and morality, and the main patron of the arts. It did indeed offer peace and beauty. But of course it is no longer the only intellectual pursuit, it was seen to be failing its intellectual duties, even by classical times, and first philosophy then its child, natural philosophy, or science, were invented to address its failings.

After which religion lost its roll as intellectual leadership, and remained only as the bastion of ultra conservatism and foot dragging. And there is a good reason why it is very successful in that role, which is expressed in my favourite definition of religion, which is. "Religion is a pseudonym, for the fallacy of proof by authority."
Whether that authority comes from a literal belief in a literal god, extreme respect for holy books/writings, or faith in traditions. It is still the fallacy of, proof by authority.

At which point it is needful to ask. Who actually needs the fallacy of proof by authority ? To which, perhaps not the only answer but certainly the main one is. Those who have nothing else to support their views. Those who can not find evidence or resort to logic, nor even use the questionable judgments of common sense. In other words those whose views are in some way untrue , unsupportable, or especially criminal in the popular view. And there is the reason why there is a deep marriage between crime, immorality and religion. Certainly in the deep past, religion may have been at the most moral forefront and the bastion of good ideals, but as time goes on and secular law, philosophy, science and democratic institutions increasingly take over that role, religion finds its support among the backward if not the morally criminal. It is not religions history which counts so much, but its direction and its future.

While it is well to consider, for a second, if beauty and arts are really always innocent and harmless. Since it is true that religion was in the past, perhaps for a long time, the main patron of the arts. There is some value in asking who are the main patrons today, besides religion ? To which the most likely answer is, the advertising industry, which surely pays for more art than anything. (It need not be good art.) And religion and the advertising industry have something in common, which is that both are attempting to sell you something, either goods or control. And giving away free art, is perhaps the best bait of all. There is no such thing as free art, any more than there is proverbially, any such thing as a free lunch. Beauty and pleasure should always be distrusted, if they are culturally generated, rather than derived from wild nature. Since they nearly always have a hidden agenda, to sell you the product, and control you.

True, art always needs some sort of financial sponsorship, whether it's wealthy patron, or organizations like public media, or sales of tickets and copies of art, etc. Or religious organizations..

Wow! This is excellent reading. Thank you. But I'm really love to spend a week or two somewhere remore talking about all of this, but course 8000 miles, a rather large pond and a huge chunk of continent divide us.
As a student at Durham I often attended Chral Evensong, being allowed to sit in the upper choir stalls. I listened to may learned canons and occasionally the dean give excelent sermons. Once in the quadrangle I met two canons. They knew me by sight. I told them that I did not believe any of the story and they explained to me that the stories are what the people wanted to hear but the true message was the mysticism behind it it all. I of course had been attending evensong because I had sung much of what they performed and loved it. We'll say that that took place in 1968 and I am 21. I spend 6 years without going to church except once to Chester Cathedral and once with a fiancee to St Pauls where I got us into the choir stall for the Christmas day service. I admit I have pretty rarely sat in the congregation anywhere.
But in 1975 playing on English Bay in Vancouver I met a couple who were involved with a Sufi Guru originally named Tim Feild. Years before (maybe 1966) I had met his wife while journeying with my father. Tim and her were once in a folk group called the Springfields.

Anyway here was Feild being a Sufi guru with a hippie group of followers (there were masses of hippies in Vanvouver at that time, myself included). Well i had some fun with them including playing with a band doing I suppose Islamic sort of music and the clothing was fun but sorry, I had no interest in chanting the La Hilah Hilah Mohomed is God's prophets dogma. So though I spent a few weeks with a group of them in North Vancouver I jumped into renovating a polio hospital instead and moved into the Italian quarter , which was much more fun. But, it was not the end as I had seen enough to be fascinated with Sufi teaching stories which I continued to read for over ten years. They are wonderful philosophy. Around1976 through to 1978 I visited Hare Krsna temple loved their food and got high chanting for an hour. I refused their books but had lovely enlightening chats with their senior monk. Gosh, there is so much more to write but other things press. By the way, I 'm a blooming Southerner from Buckinghamshire.
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Exclusionary religions. Seems to have begun in earnest with monotheism. Doctrine. This refusal to evolve with knowledge.

Interesting. So Norse an Roman gods religion did not demand one adhered? Christians forced themselves on Anglo Saxons etc?

@rogerbenham They did but in a more liberal way. In the polytheistic world it was possible to see several different gods, with different names, as expressions of the same god, or metaphor. And often do so across cultural boundaries.

@Fernapple Despite the Romans destrying Anglesea, druidism in a form still exists today though nowadays more as a fad cult,

@rogerbenham Have several gods to choose from is far more democratic & inclusive. Most monotheism is based on a single male figure & the denigration of all others. Especially the control of women & reproduction.

@Mooolah Yes, ancient Crete was matriarchal. Piped sewers. Piped water.

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I think you are confusing hate the perversions and warped thinking promoted by many religions for "hatred of gawd". Not the same thing at all!!!
I have no problem whatsoever with any religion, such as Buddhism or Wicca, that promote Minding Your Own Business and looking inward for forms of peace/happiness/fullfilment.
I do have a Big problem with anyone pushing some Sky-Fairy sanctioned agenda on my life and how I live it.

Oh yes, I fully agree. But the hard ones are good friends. I have SDA friends whose converstion is full of nensense. 4004 BC crap. Mem rule women crap.

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Check your posts, as you ended up with duplicates on them, so you should delete the extra copies. I know it's accidental and the something the system does, but it's annoying to have multiple copies of the same post on the front page of the site.

Sorry Tom. I was not getting notices they were going through.

Sorry Tom, I did delete some but two identicals have valid comments made by others.

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Religion gave nothing to anyone ever.
Religion has simply held sway emotionally, often physically and legally over the masses for a long as it has existed.
Religion is the business of selling lies for wealth, servitude, power and military strength.
Religion has been responsible for theft, acts of cultural vandalism and persecution of anyone who has dared question or else wise has been perceived to threaten religion’s hold on power or income.
Religion has as a matter of course suppressed knowledge, peddled lies as facts, enslaved through ignorance.
For religion has always been the enemy of knowledge, social progress and enlightenment in order AGAIN to keep its grip on power and wealth.
Religion is above all the propagator of the single greatest lie to ever infect the minds of people that FAITH is of equal or greater value than FACT.
The all-encompassing LIE that simple wilful gullibility can replace and better truth, evidence, proof and reality.
This great and terrible lie of Faith, THIS ALONE has been the cause of more death, pain and unnecessary suffering than anything else in all of history, a lie perpetrated in secondarily in the name of god but primarily in the name of Religion.
The art and music religion has claimed as its own were the products of enlightened minds pressed in to service by threats of torture, threats to the families of the artists, and acts of horrendous evil so grotesque as to turn the stomachs of good people even today.
Religion has been and still is both a beacon and a haven for deviants, perverts, sadist and all the very worst that mankind has to offer, all while claiming authority to be the only source of moral and ethical wisdom guidance and LAW.
It is logical to hate religion!
Because once free of religious indoctrination and lies, people become free of the pain that religion has inflicted.
A person may become free of the damage that religion has done, the death it has caused and the acts of blatant thievery it is has perpetrated;
Not only is it right to turn upon Religion, it is emotionally necessary for to do otherwise is to condone religion’s actions.
Tolerance of Religion’s false claims to righteousness, it propagations of evil and evil social convention, its bigotry, prejudice, ignorance and poisoning of the minds of children from generation to generation, all these come with the refusal condemn and the decision to condone.
To make such a decision to tolerate such evil is indicative of at best a misguided mindset, ignorance and stupidity.
At worst, it is the revelation of an evangelist and apologist for the indefensible abominations of the atrocity that is religion.
Such has been the very calling card of religion’s presence for all time.

Well said! TFP!

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To each their own. I see religion today as more like a club that your family belongs to. As a teen I was beguiled by religion, thought it had all the answers, and was going to become the next Billy Graham or Jimmy Swaggart. As this goal slowly slipped away it took me years to stop blaming myself. Nobody has all the answers. I'm not sure we have all the questions. In the end I did not really hate religion but I blamed the parents for following this nonsense without question. In my mind I knew I was lied to. This is what I fight today. Evangelicals who know we are "in the last days" and forget that Jesus said that in the bible too. These people just know that he will return soon and "in their lifetime." I suppose this makes it real for them and also marks their own importance. In my opinion it also makes them dangerous. Religion should never be a part of politics but today it is there stronger than before. The world will be a much better place without religion. It should never be anything more than just a part of your past culture.

Being brought up C of E in Englsand, we knew that our church was bound to olitics. It wa s just a ritual . We did not take it seriously. It was a community get together at Christmas Day, possibly Easter. But really we took almost as little not as we did of the flag.

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