Agnostic.com

15 3

Closed-mindedness... not just religions

Does it dawn on you, your value system, that "being very sure" (to the exclusion of doubt, further consideration) of anything is identical to the quality/condition of being absolutely adamant re religious beliefs? Seems to me that folks who would identify w/ the facts, attitudes, methods... of science, be forever tentative, even a bit cynical if considering the affective domain... Realize that all sensation has subjective elements... we can/only sense what we can, our perceptions lag and are only successive approximations to what is there.

BobFenner 7 Dec 25
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

15 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

2

Being open minded does not mean being so open that your brains fall out.

I would attribute this but I suffer from CRS.

3

What you're saying (if I understand your point) is actually exemplified in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. In essence, it states that the more certain you are of a particles position, the less certain you are of it's velocity. And the reverse is also true. The more certain you are of it's velocity, the less certain you can be of it's position.

There are very few things that can be proven as absolutes. But, the burden of proof is on the positive, not the negative. Prove to me there are not leprechauns or unicorns. It's not possible to disprove them. We can only show no evidence that they exist.

Science works on evidence. It relies on repeated observations that agree with previous results. This is why a scientific finding is still called a "theory" even when proven repeatedly. Science admits it's open to change. Religion does not. "God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" is a mantra for many religious zealots.

The bottom line... my "very sure" does not equate to the "very sure" of religion. My "very sure" is open to change based on experiments and results which can be repeated and verified. Religion is based on faith that what I believe is true regardless of experiments and their results. And that is a huge difference.

Duke Level 8 Dec 25, 2017

Two of three may be known... position, direction or velocity... never all three.

Yes @BobFenner But, Direction is moot and is therefore not part of the uncertainty equation. Direction must be determined before either of the other can be determined. Position and velocity can never be known together regardless of direction.

Velocity is a vector and therefore cannot be known unless direction is known

2

There is a related issue that today's problem of balkanized news sources and separate demographic paradigm bubbles has led to a lot of people insisting every opinion is equally valid and equally deserving of respect. College professors in the social sciences are increasingly complaining of their students getting furious and utterly insulted-feeling when they are called out on their made up factual statements. "Open-minded does not mean "willing to accept everything at face value." Factual integrity still matters.

1

I absolutely agree with the post. That is actually the main reason I embrace the label of " agnostic atheist." However, it is worth emphasizing the vital difference between the adjectives "open-minded" and "gullible." We should always try to apply critical thinking skills to evidence presented to us. I don't mean that anyone here suggested otherwise, but it still seems to need defending. Exhibit A is the "intelligent design" fake science that tries to fabricate or twist evidence to suit their agenda, rather than respecting actual scientific methodologies and rigorous peer review that is an essential part of science.

4

Science is built on probabilities whereas religion is built on faith. If something has a probability of 98% because it has been tested repeatedly and the tests have been verified I feel justified in believing that something. The religious believe as Hebrews says "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." If you believe in something hoped for and that you never saw evidence for, that's closed-mindedness. If you believe in something that has repeatedly been tested and verified by many people that is accepting evidence. I go with the evidence.

gearl Level 8 Dec 25, 2017

Granted. But what of the many many questions science has not answered yet? 98% certainly sounds great but most areas of study are not that well concluded.

@BenPike Two hundred years ago science had answered very little. Now a multitude of questions have been answered. We have technology that I am using at this second to discuss this subject with you. That came from science as is everything that modern society uses to survive. What is one thing that religion has proven in the last two hundred years? What one advancement in knowledge can be attributed to religion? When science cannot answer a question scientists will say, I don't know but we're working on it. Religion tends to act like they already know all the answers while attacking science because they don’t as yet know everything. Only one side is working on it. In the end when you need help with your health or your car or flying to Tokyo, who ya gonna ask?

@gearl I never meant to compare the two. Steve Jobs and Jerry Falwell don't have the same careers. One was an innovator and the other a vulture in guise.

3

Science can easily be refuted with newer evidence or theories. It's harder to prove if there's a god or no god. The further we evolve in science, the closer we come to refuting religion/existence of any deity whatsoever.

Not sure I believe that. The further we delve into the intricacies of the universe and space, the more we discover that we do not know.

Well, more millennials are becoming secular now. (I did) They're learning more about science and the absurdities of religion. The more remains we find of humans before jesus' time, that can prove there never really were biblical times. We've have never found the Garden of Eden, any evidence that people wandered the desert for 40 years, etc...

I'm speaking of religion, not space.

5

Science allows for (even demands) corrections of possible mistakes/misinterpretations. Religions? Not so much.

Some religions are less dogmatic than others.

2

Yes. I think that's the proper attitude of a scientist (or anyone who wants to always be getting closer to the truth).

skado Level 9 Dec 25, 2017
0

There are things we can know that are not built on perception or belief. For example the laws of modus ponens and modus tollens. To hold those as facts enables the consideration of much else, whereas to hold those as questionable stymies reason and thought.

1

I echo the same sentiments as already voiced before me in this thread. Human limitations may be a bitch, but we've only got what we've got - at least for now.

Zster Level 8 Dec 25, 2017

Our limits may suggest that we are not equipped for certain tasks. We maybe better off leaving them alone, for now, rather than using a steam roller to fold a sheet.

1

I am a pessimist in most situations, I expect the worst, so if I am wrong, that is a good thing. The same with what I believe to be true, if I am wrong, I am wrong, if I find I am wrong, I have learned something.

2

All religious "true believers" are, by definition, closed minded. But, the same is also true for true believers in any political or economic ideology.

2

I so not choose to associate with closed minded people.

You and me both. They’re childish.

3

It is simply a question of perspective, rather than certainty; I shall not conduct my life according to that which is not supported by some amount of evidence since it may be wasted effort.

There is much which our senses are thoroughly incapable of telling us, that is why scientists do not rely upon perception if any other means of measurement is possible.

2

I agree completely. To me, being sure of something means accepting it as a good working hypothesis. I might act as if I believe something to be true, but I'm open to changing my mind if need be.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:10602
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.