What about 2 siblings that were adopted by different couples raised not know each other. Meet fell in love got married then found out they were siblings. Is that still wrong if why

CCcatlover, that's kind of a stretch, but I have heard at least anecdotally of that or similar situations occurring. It's impossible to judge anyone in that situation as immoral. If they decide to stay married and especially if they have children, it becomes wrong. It's been pointed out that perfectly normal children have resulted from incest, but the chance of deformities is greater and becomes more likely if incest occurs over succeeding generations. If allowed where should we draw the line? I mean if a brother and sister have children why can't their children and grandchildren?

@JimG There were a couple of documented cases over the last thirty years or so. One quite tragic as the couple had children (healthy) but were legally obliged to divorce.
Back to the OP, the question ruled out offspring as a consideration.

@CCcatlover, @JimG, @RobAnybody: I posted this in a reply above: A man and woman meet in college, fall in love, marry, and have children before they find out they are half-siblings, conceived by the same sperm donor (http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2013/02/dear_prudence_my_wife_and_i_came_from_the_same_sperm_donor.html)

Thank you!

this question carefully specified that both were adults, consenting, and practicing safe sex. without any single one of these conditions, my answer would have been different

I agree, and I think everyone would agree that is obviously immoral. The word immoral doesn't do it justice, and I can't imagine a word that would adequately describe how horrible that crime is, and that's precisely why I phrased it the way I did. I would never have wasted your time or mine asking the question, is rapping your daughter moral or immoral? The question itself is utterly terrifying. The question, is about consensual sex between two consenting people who happen to be a bother and sister, is that immoral or moral?

paul1967, 'consensual sex between two consenting people who happen to be a bother and sister, is that immoral or moral?' in this case, again, it's not a question of morality to me, but of choice.

My thanks also..I learn so much here...

That's more of a rape than incestuous relationship. Of course it's a sexual activity between related people. So, as you said proper definition should be given for the word in this poll.

awesome answer tackling an element of the subject I had not considered.

Great answer Maya, I am starting to enjoy reading such good common sense.

I don't know if and when religion took hold of incest, but between adults it just is. We mostly don't do it because it's bad for the gene pool. Island people got away with it in time past because they had great genes. But even then, a group has to eventually go outside of an insulated group to keep from weakening the pool. I think any culture has a right to develop its own system of who has sex as long as children are protected and valued.

yes, @Maya405, & we do make our choices based on our moral codes, don't we?

you didn't read the question, which specifically was about SAFE (non-procreating) SEX between SIBLINGS. & that would be a matter of your personal choice, based on an ethical or moral code.

@VirginCotton Parents, no, period. Regarding an aunt or an uncle, there are cultures where this education is respected and revered, and also tightly bound by tradition and ceremony. Under those circumstances, in those cultures, I would not call it incest. Outside of those cultures it is incest, and even in those cultures, outside the formalities and traditions of that education it is still incest and taboo.

@VirginCotton I've checked the Merriam-Webster online dictionary and the Oxford Living English dictionary regarding the definition of the word taboo. Merriam-Webster doesn't mention religion at all in its primary definition, and the Oxford dictionary I searched said "social or religious" in each definition. The word comes from the Tongan word "tabu" which means set apart, forbidden and makes no mention of religion. I also looked up "incest" and it refers to definition by law, not religion although of course in some times and places the two are just about interchangeable. Anyway,I checked the definitions to be sure I understood the words I was using, and now can confidently stand by them: I do not believe I am leaning into religious dogma; my references are social and subjective to the particular society as I mentioned in my answer. I do not know what I can help you with; I do not understand your reference to new territory. Is it because people are taking this discussion far beyond the original, very specific question? For me, it is incest without question, but the morality/immorality of it I cannot decide; it is a matter of choice for the two individuals involved assuming they believe they are,treat each other as, equals.

@Maya405, consensus, or agreement if you will, is the choice here.

@madmac, you just missed reading &/or understanding the original post.

@Rugglesby, nothing was answered in this comment. every single element from the original post was twisted into something else entirely. the question was about consenting siblings having safe sex. Maya405 turned this into a rape scenery between father & daughter, thereby hijacking the post.

@walklightly true, I caught the comment and applied it to the heading, kinda missed the other bit. Reading in full, I guess it's not really immoral to me as an atheist, just icky.

yeah, @Rugglesby, that'll be about it

@VirginCotton A 7-year-old boy is prepubescent and even a 12-year-old girl should not be in any kind of sexual situation with him. An adult male having an affair with a first cousin depends on whether the cousin is at least at the age of consent, generally 15 or so in most states. If she's at the age of consent but below 18, it's still incest and I think he could still go to jail for it. If she's below the age of consent, I think that's the legal version of not through puberty yet, and not only is it incest but also pedophilia, and he WILL go to jail and probably be killed by the other inmates, hopefully by being sodomized until his rectum ruptures and poisons him with fecal bacteria. (Gee, can you guess who was a victim of incestuous pedophilia? At the age of 6, no less.)
If the man having the affair is the grown boy of the scenario with his 12-year-old aunt, he is no less culpable: being an adult means taking responsibility for your actions, even if you are emotionally tainted with a history of incest/rape.

Maya just about nailed it.

Well said, however the original question harks back to the Christian claim that only they have morality...

@Maya405 Yes as you say a brother and sister consent to have sex I can't see the problem. In fact if anyone is having incest that is fine with me. At least they love each other.

If its first generation brother sister the deformity rate is still relatively low. It when generations keep doing it that causes health risks

Also, parent and child relations is a lot more likely to cause problems than between siblings.

I agree. I find it unappealing myself but I also find gay sex unappealing but I don't judge anyone for it and I know if they're happy and it makes sense to them I'm all for it.

How about if its between consenting adults, and the younger adult was raised to believe that it was ok and that was his or her role in that relationship from childhood? Is it ok then?

@rafferty that wouldn't be between consenting adults. you answered your own question.

No i didnt. I was describing a particularly awful form of sex slavery, and the very opposite of free thought. Monstrous. Ive seen the results such criminality.

@rafferty grooming a child into adulthood to be your sex slave is not a consensual relationship. obviously.

@basher But I believe that without some sort of investigation into it, they would seem perfectly consenting.

I have to tell you that I like the way your brain works and even better the way you express your thought verbally. I do disagree on this point. The fact that society stigmatizes incest doesn't impact the question of is it moral. The issue should read, is it moral to you? I personally think it's unquestionably moral and very unadvisable. When I say it's moral I'm not implying good I'm saying it's not bad and my assessment of what is moral or immoral is based on is it Bad? Or not bad. I don't use, is it Good or bad because something that is moral doesn't necessarily mean it's good or advisable.

Ill make the moral judgement. One person has gone ftom bathing and feeding and taking the other person to school, to fucking them, and its now a romantic relationship dynamic, controlled and defined by the "parent". There is no way for this not to be abuse.

Also, people are going "oh brother and sister is ok.." Really? Where's this? Alexandria in the 1st Century? (Ptolemies like Eurgetes "potbelly" or Chickpea were reviled and openly mocked as inbred degenerates, which was true) or Caligula's Brothel palace? He would make everyone swear loyalty oaths on his sisters names to put that they were fucking in people's faces, specifically to offend thier senses of morality, and it got him assassinated. cassius Caerea cited "Degeneracy" as a valid reason, and proof he was a lunatic.

But from a biological perspective there is the biggest problem - we share 25% of the same genes as our siblings which is likely to cause genetic abnormalities to the offspring. But what you may have missed in the question were the words "safe sex".

There were no parameters given, so I will say immoral when it's father/daughter or uncle/niece. (I've read older male on younger female is most common form of incest.) The power within the authority figure in such cases bring me to the immoral side of the argument. I would also say immoral if it's mother/son or aunt/nephew. I believe even well into adulthood there is always that authority figure issue with parents and aunts/uncles. Now, sister/brother or first cousins are relationships that should be judged on a per-case basis. Is one more dominant than the other? It would, of necessity, have to be an egalitarian relationship for me to go to the moral side. I've enjoyed reading everyone's comment on this topic.

My concern is the medical/genetic point of view. Incest can and does cause genetic concerns. Granted it may not cause it in every case, but the potential is always there. One scenerio poised above was separated at birth, found each other , fell in love, and etc,etc,etc. children in such a case could and probably would gave some genetic abberrations pop up. Genetic counciling and testing would be wise. The moral aspect? I don't see a problem there, but from a legal point of view, there is a problem. In mist states relatives closer than second cousins are forbidden from marriage because of the potential for genetic changes, often times harming th children. I have seen the genetic aberrations from close family marriages. Most suffer mental retardation and physical challenges. Living in the south I have seen dozens of families that had children that had major health problems from incestious relationships. Look at the Middle East. In mist underdeveloped countries many marry family members due to the fact that they seldom move more than a few miles from their homes. In Islamic countries they state that 25% of the population has mental illness due to having children with close family relations. It's not uncommon to seefirst cousins marry. Not just in Islamic countries but in many Asian countries and India. The birth defects in close familial marriages are well documented.

@TheMiddleWay ...probably what happened with Adam & Eve & Caine... imagine.

@TheMiddleWay According to this study there's a 42% chance of abnormailty in 50% relations, which is pretty high. I'd always thought it was less. I wonder what it is for the general population. [psychologytoday.com]

@girlwithsmiles I don't know! I must have the luckiest family in history. Lots and lots of child molestation going on, but few problems. Maybe my recent ancestors had amazing genes! ?

@WilliamLee another scenario is if 2 (half) siblings, conceived from the same sperm donor, meet, fall in love, and have children before finding out they are siblings: [slate.com]

Yes if the sex is consented to why not? At least there is love there, If my sister and I want to have sex that is up to us and nobody else.

@girlwithsmiles That is about correct. Middleways understanding of modern genetics seems to be a little faulty, in several small ways. I have heard that the risk is small but real. It may be an urban myth, but I have also heard that the risks of problems for the child, is about the same as that for the children of older fathers over fifty.

I'm not trying to be combative but did you respond only to the title of the question or was this your response to the whole issue below the title?

You're not being combative, and yes I'm guilty of not fully reading the post. It's just that I know many good people whose lives were ruined due to incest, so it tends to put me in the red zone. I guess if you use protection, and want to have relations w/a relative, it's a person's individual choice, but you know, sometimes contraception fails.

I need to add, there ARE those people (and there seems to be quite a few) who are predisposed to incestuousness. Freud, Klein, Fairbairn, Winnicott, would say those people were "arrested" in their development and did not get past the pre-oedipal or the oedipal stage of childhood. ("The Primer of Object Relations" by David and Jill Scharff)

I like this answer because of how impossible it is to follow due to spelling and grammatical issues , good work! Made me laugh for a bit.