Yes, some boundaries of etiquette and for sanitation would need to be established. At nudist clubs or in nudist homes i have visited, people generally carry towels with them to sit on as a par of nudist cultural etiquette. As things opened up to public nudity, new social norms would need to be established to avoid such issues such as sanitation.

Most nudists/naturists think the ideal job is one where you can work naked. Many telecommute from home (work from home over the internet) in order to accomplish that.

You have a point. Not all the problems are from swingers, but would be better classified as "troublesome pervs" as you put it. I admit, I was just beign lazy about fully explaining, as it takes a lot longer, and I didn't want to introduce too much information at one time, because in the U.S., people are usually ignorant of fine distinctions. They have years of misinformation. I took the easy road and separated everyone into just two groups, the nudsits and naturists who enjoy platonic nude recreation, and the rest who seek out nudist places because they have some sort of sexual agenda, whether they are swingers, pedophiles, voyeurs, exhibitionists or some sort of sexual predator. However, pedophiles and sexual predators generally don't usually go to nudist places, as they almost always seek places of seclusion metnioning them upfront would immediately get up everyone's guard and spark fer, and the conversations would not be about thier attitudes towards nudity, but about things that are no more of a concern in nudist places than in clothed places. That is my excuse/justification for taking the "easy way out" in my categorizations.

I really wish the U.S. was much better educated and did not have so much misinformation. I wanted to see what attitudes about nudity were, and I seem to accomplished that. I am surprised that I am still getting responses almost everyday.

Here in the UK, naturism does seem to attract paedophiles. I've been a member of a club that had one member kicked out after it was revealed that he was on the sex offender's register for something to do with photos of his young granddaughter. What was most alarming was that a number of other club members knew about this and kept quiet. The same club had one member arrested after it transpired that he'd been repeatedly raping both of his step-children. He's probably still in prison (I hope so.)

There have been a few high profile exclusions from British Naturism, including their Yorkshire area representative a few years back. He was caught viewing child pornography in work (I think he was more of a sexual thrill seeking risk taker and taboo breaker than anything) and a raid on his house revealed an extensive collection of over 100,000 images, some of which fell into the worst classification of child sexual abuse.

The obvious appeal of naturism/nudism to someone with a sexual interest in children is a massive elephant in the room. Without training to be a Physical Education teacher (and going through all kinds of vetting) where else are you likely to get an opportunity to observe under 18's without clothes? I find it frustrating that naturism chooses to focus on a 'threat' supposedly posed to grown adults by swingers, while largely ignoring a very real threat to children.

Perhaps things are different in the US. But given that (admittedly a good few years ago) I stumbled across a 'secret' group on the Internet, detailing US nudist resorts for incestuous families, I doubt it's really that much different. The fact that many believe otherwise is down to the facade that naturism/nudism manages to maintain.

Though you're far from alone in 'othering' swingers. I used to do it myself. It's easy to dump everyone with any kind of sexual agenda into the same pile of pervs, and naturism/nudism routinely uses this tack to distance 'genuine' naturists from any impropriety. The reality is that most swingers are very respectful, and discreet to the point of paranoia just as so many naturists are. They wouldn't dare to do a lot of stuff that the pervs get up to. They would be too concerned about being exposed as practitioners of their lifestyle.

I believe I have read there is actually more than just one park in Germany where nudity is allowed.

I live near Portland, Oregon (USA), and there if people see soemone naked, it is really no big deal. I've done several naked bike rides through the city there.

I do a lot of reading and find it interesting how in historical novels as Europeans reach the Americas they make it a priority to teach natives to be ashamed of their bodies. Nakedness was nto really a big deal to most native cultures.

The truth is that we are taught to feel ashamed. It doesn't come naturally (even if the bible says that it does). It is a bit of a farce for everyone to cover up, even though everyone already knows what is under the clothes..

@snytiger6 I once met an Australian Aboriginal who was a bit of a celebrity, i had a long talk with him. He asked me: "What do you think was the worst thing [for us] that Europeans brought?" I guessed guns, maybe the bible, ..?... but no, he said "Clothes." And seeing the poor natives looking extremely awkward packed away in victorian garb, you can see why. Shoes included. He said they stopped feeling the Earth.

@ZebZaman I have read a couple of books by Michael Talbot about the founding of Australia (there are three altogether, but I haven't red the third yet), and when they talked about snow in winter (our summer), I wondered how Aborigines managed to keep warm, but they must have done just fine.

the same in hamburg, my former hometown. nudity in the city's summer parks

Because it's not natural to hate bodies, not natural to clothe unless you're cold or something.

Yeah. American culture is overly obsessed with sex. I don't think it is healthy or good for society to have such obsessions.

Right. Perverted Americans.

If we weren't forced to cover and be prudes we wouldn't judge others' looks. And common sense would have pants when appropriate.

And it's gone because of religion and patriarchy.

Sadly so...

This could be argued with the chicken or the egg type of argument. Can cultural attitudes change first without allowing more nudity in society first, or will allowing more nudity in society change public attitudes to where it would be as accepted as it is in many parts of Europe? Either way, nothing would change all that quickly.

The real question as i see it, is should people have the freedom to be nude if they so choose, and my answer would be yet. So, although nothing will happen over night, I'd like to see our society and culture move in the direction where nudity is more acceptable. Especially so, because most of our taboos against nudity are based in religious dogmas.

Yes, pervs do go to the nude beaches, but natruists/nudists either ignore tham or laugh at them, and they are no more than a minor annoyance at the beach. The big annoyance is that the general public get a warped view of naturists/nudists in general beign sexual in purpose from the very few and infrequent pervs.

So nudge them gradually. Cultural attitudes do change. It used to be a crime to engage in sexual behavior with someone of the same sex and the idea of a same sex marriage was risible. Today, it's the law of the land. But it didn't happen all at once, it took a lot of hard work making incremental changes until the concept of tolerance gained a critical mass of social acceptance. Maybe naturism can walk a similar path.

If the religious hate was untaught and nature considered natural, a lot of twisted sex attitudes would go away. Bodies could be just bodies. Cultures have perverted sex and the body and it could be untaught. But, nudity would be choice, like wearing shorts in the snow or pajamas when shopping. Who cares if no one is hurt?

I suppose that is why we have laws that require hygiene under certain circumstances. I am all for such laws.

Making nudity legal does not mean there would not be limitations or regulations. For instance even speech is regulated under some circumstances, such as it is illegal to yell fire in a theater or auditorium. Above I already mention the limitation that a naked person should not be doing anything with the intent of sexually arousing either themselves or anyone else. Other limitations would very likely be needed to insure hygienic protections... because some people are just idiots and/or assholes in regards to being considerate of others.

@snytiger6 The limitations needed to make general public nudity sufficiently hygienic would most likely amount to see-through clothing, Which rather defeats the purpose. All beaches being clothing optional, parks the same, probably public swimming pools but I'd want input from the managers of such. These would be reasonable options. Nudity on public transport would be both invasive and grotty. If we could limit the close contact into which people come it would probably be reasonably safe. I suspect that clothing is the easier option.

I am amazed at how few people realize that even if they aren't religious they still carry a lot of dogmas from religion without realizing it. I can see you are more aware than those persons.

Ironically, the bible itself does nto specifically ban nudity. It has many references about how you shoudl feel ashamed about nudity, which seems to be more about religious leaders controlling people though fear and shame than it has ever been a dictate that was supposed to come from the god of the bible. There has never been a commandment to "cover up.". It has always just been dogma.

Exactly. As far as I know nudism or naturism started to grow fast in Germany somewhere at the start of the seventies, not in the least as a way of protesting. It spread fast over Europe. It is called there FKK (Frei Körper Kultur, which means Free Body Culture). It's goal was and is to enjoy company of other people that shared the appalling limitations by the religious dogmas and the by religion dictated laws. "Together be fee" Because of the pleasant temperature former Yugoslavia a lot of camping sites became FKK, mostly a big part of the site at the back. It was and still is very popular. As result of that you sauna's are mixed and have only a few single gender hours, most of the times especially for ladies that feel uncomfortable with naked men around them for reasons of dogma's or abuse.
I guess that bible-dogma finds its origin in "Adam and Eve saw they were nude and covered themselves" or words like that. This little line was added for dogmatic reasons. I can think of some reasons for that, in general for controlling communities ans societies. No further limitations on nudity in the Bible as far as I know.

The funny thing is though, at these camping sites and nude beaches appear to be free of sexual harassment. Because everything is "openly visible" it is not firing fantasies. The Netherlands has an expression "bloot slaat dood" which means more or less "nudity falls flat". I think that's how it works indeed. The funny thing was at the nude beaches, that there were always a few viewers that walked around dressed, with an erection. Nude men? Never seen it.

the fkk - as nude sunbathing & exercising in nature - actually was born in germany in the early 20. century. at the time the movement included raw-foodism & natural remedies, & advocated back to nature; Rudolf Steiner & the waldorf schools were part of what developed in this environment. it was also very non-religious, or heathen you might say.

All unreasonable restriction comes from religion.

@walklightly as far as I know it was more than nude sunbathing & exercising in nature as you state, and it was not necessarily related to Rufolf Steinder schools and alternative ways of living. But if you want to know more, check this link out. It tells more of the background:

[en.wikipedia.org]

I don't understand though why this link is not completely seen as such.

@Gert, thank you for the link. i mentioned back to nature, raw-foodism & natural remedies as well; also that R. Steiner & waldorf were PART of the movement at the time. the maternal branch of my family lived the Lebensreform (life reform) style. google it!

I once had a body that was considered "ideal". I had to exercise for at least three hours a day, at least for at least five days a week in order to just maintain it. Now, I just have an "average" body, which means no definition and some extra pounds in unflattering places. There really is nto much point in all that effort unless you make a living as a model.

Life is too short to be worried about what other people think about my current body condition. I am happy and comfortable with myself.

Nudity doesn't mean you lose your common sense. Protection where it's needed.

With you there, sometimes I cook shirtless and I am usually surprised how far hot oil can go!